Opinions wanted: Aerotech FirstFire Ignitors ...

[kjhambrick]

Back in the old days, AeroTech Copperhead Ignitors worked fine for me on smaller motors -- most of the time.

My Level 1 Cert in 1995 or so was an Aerotech Astrobee D with an H128-6W lit by an unenhanced Copperhead Ignitor.

And Copperheads worked OK for everything I flew thru 29mm H-Motors.

I learned as I started flying larger 38mm and 54mm Motors, that Copperheads frequently failed to light the Motor or the motor might chuff unless I enhanced them a tad.

So I started replacing Copperheads with Electric Matches and 'a little' piece of Thermalite.

This worked every time and rarely ever chuffed.

Now AeroTech provides FirstFire Ignitors.

Do they work OK as provided, even on larger motors ?

Do they need a little enhancement ?

I'll probably fly a J350 this weekend for my Level 2 recert.

I plan on getting a QuickDip Kit but ...

Should I try the FirstFire Ignitor with a little enhancement ?

Maybe just go with an enhanced MGJ e-match ?

Thanks

-- kjh

 

[Upsrocketman]

I've had no issue with aerotech ignitors in any of the motors I have flown other than redlines. Every redline motor I have flown has spit the ignitor. They worked great for my level 2 flight on a J350, as well as the I357, I435, J415 and K456 DM I flew at LDRS this past weekend. If you're flying white, blue or sparky the supplied igniter is fine. If you fly any red aerotech motors grab a Wildman igniter.

 

[cls]

FF igniters work just fine, no enhancement needed.

 

[Kallahan11]

I've used FF igniters on everything from D20's to M6000's with only one issue where the igniter popped but did not light it's pyrogen. I would use the igniter you get with the motor and not worry about it. You wont fail your cert because an igniter didn't start your motor.

 

[teepot]

Ditto above. The igniters work fine as they are. For clusters or I can't find a FF in my range box I use Quick Burst.

 

[loopy]

They are definitely good as is for all propellant types!

 

[kjhambrick]

Thanks everybody !

Then I'll 'start' with the AT FirstFire included with a new J350-W on my L2 attempt tomorrow and improvise if necessary.

-- kjh

 

[Kallahan11]

Thanks everybody !

Then I'll 'start' with the AT FirstFire included with a new J350-W on my L2 attempt tomorrow and improvise if necessary.

-- kjh

Be sure to report back on your level 2 attempt!

 

[kjhambrick]

Will do Kallahan11

Thanks again.

-- kjh

 

[kjhambrick]

Update:

I won't fail my L2 Cert this month because the AARG July launch has been scrubbed due to a Milam, TX County-wide burn ban

It's all good. I am ready with a Rocket -- all I need is a site and a motor

-- kjh

 

[OverTheTop]

Sad about the scrub.

I have never had a motor not light using First Fire igniters.

 

[kjhambrick]

No worries OvertTheTop.

I'll have more time to practice with my newly rejuvenated Walston Receiver, fly some model rockets with the Granddaughters and work on the fins for La Pequeña Vulcanita -- my new BT-55 based Blue Raven test vehicle.

I am really looking forward to flying the Blue Raven in smaller rockets down at the school yard with the girls

-- kjh

p.s. Thanks for the info on the FF Ignitors -- the concensus is that they don't suck -- they're actually pretty reliable

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

I find adding a sliver of blue thunder propellant can help if you are doing a cluster. I agree with others that the first fires are pretty solid!

 

[cerving]

FF igniters work fine, AT did have a bad batch a few years ago when they first came out with the yellow-orange wired ones but they seem to have gotten those issues resolved. If you're getting some QuikBurst, why don't you just get some ematches and dip those? It's cheaper than the FF igniters, and works really well... especially for clusters or airstarts.

 

[kjhambrick]

I find adding a sliver of blue thunder propellant can help if you are doing a cluster. I agree with others that the first fires are pretty solid!

Alex --

Back before the BATF involvement in our business, I used short lengths of thermalite to enhance my e-matches.

What is a sliver of BT propellant and how is it inserted in the motor grains ?

Thanks

-- kjh

 

[kjhambrick]

FF igniters work fine, AT did have a bad batch a few years ago when they first came out with the yellow-orange wired ones but they seem to have gotten those issues resolved. If you're getting some QuikBurst, why don't you just get some ematches and dip those? It's cheaper than the FF igniters, and works really well... especially for clusters or airstarts.

Cerving --

Yes, I bought a full box of MJG e-matches last month and that's what I was thinking I would try ...

But what I am reading here, I should try the AT FF ignitor first.

Thanks!

-- kjh

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

Alex --

Back before the BATF involvement in our business, I used short lengths of thermalite to enhance my e-matches.

What is a sliver of BT propellant and how is it inserted in the motor grains ?

Thanks

-- kjh

I bought a D20 reload and cut the BT propellant into slivers that can fit through the nozzle of whatever motor I am lighting. I gently tie it to the tip of the FF with cotton thread.

 

[cwbullet]

FirstFire works fine if you do not add a lot of age to them. The pyrogen tends to flake off over time. That might be from the environment or lows of vibration with travel.

For really small nozzles, I make my own igniters.

 

[anbhtblr]

Back in the old days, AeroTech Copperhead Ignitors worked fine for me on smaller motors -- most of the time.

My Level 1 Cert in 1995 or so was an Aerotech Astrobee D with an H128-6W lit by an unenhanced Copperhead Ignitor.

And Copperheads worked OK for everything I flew thru 29mm H-Motors.

I learned as I started flying larger 38mm and 54mm Motors, that Copperheads frequently failed to light the Motor or the motor might chuff unless I enhanced them a tad.

So I started replacing Copperheads with Electric Matches and 'a little' piece of Thermalite.

This worked every time and rarely ever chuffed.

Now AeroTech provides FirstFire Ignitors.

Do they work OK as provided, even on larger motors ?

Do they need a little enhancement ?

I'll probably fly a J350 this weekend for my Level 2 recert.

I plan on getting a QuickDip Kit but ...

Should I try the FirstFire Ignitor with a little enhancement ?

Maybe just go with an enhanced MGJ e-match ?

Thanks

-- kjh

I've not had problems in motors K and below. However I did have to use a small wood dowel to hold the igniter in place on an M motor.

 

[cfb_rolley]

I see tons of people using First Fires all the time at my club on motor sizes up to a J, with very few issues, but as for copperheads, absolutely despise them. I think I've only ever had 2 or 3 successful ignitions with a copperhead and that was with blue thunder grains, so I've been making my own where the size of a copperhead is needed and they've been pretty reliable. I'd give FF junior igniters a go, but they're never in stock here.

 

[kjhambrick]

After Steve Cello showed me the Bic Trick to split the two foil leads, my CopperHead success rate improved dramatically ... YMMV ...

And I didn't use them beyond 29mm.

-- kjh

 

[bjphoenix]

What is a sliver of BT propellant and how is it inserted in the motor grains ?

This is Aerotech Blue Thunder propellant, the composite propellant formulation that is supposed to be easiest to light. My understanding is that you put bits of it against your igniter when you load it.

 

[kjhambrick]

Thanks bjphoenix.

I was wondering first: What is a 'sliver of Blue Thunder propellant' ?

And then I was wondering: How would one insert it into say, a DMS J250-W motor ?

I am still trying to visualize a sliver of propellant but @AlexBruccoleri's reply helped a lot -- Alex attaches 'a sliver' of propellant from an RMS 18/20 kit to the tip of his ignitor with cotton thread ( see Post #17 above ).

And @DabCat uses deltal floss:

... I use the leftover propellant spirals from drilling the cores of propellant grains for EX motors. I stick them in containers with a desiccant and they'll light anything. Stick them in the top of a motor or on an ematch wrapped with dental floss and everything lights. Nearly instantly.

I imagine 'a sliver' or 'a spiral' is an indeterminate length of propellant of a diameter that will fit thru the Nozzle -and-or- the Motor Core and is either attached to the ignitor or maybe is inserted into the top grain of an RMS motor.

I've already added a box of dental floss to my range box which I'll try instead of masking tape with an inch-or-two of Thermalite ( which I am no longer allowed to possess ).

It is EASY to make Thermalite 'slivers' -- just snip off 'enough' from the roll with side-snippers ...

But I've never sliced up a Blue Thunder grain so I wasn't sure how to make slivers ... do they tend to disintegrate ... etc, etc, etc ... ???

I've got more than a few, very old RMS-18/20 D24-7T kits in my magazine that I can experiment with instead of Thermalite.

I will probably set up a test -or- two on the concrete BBQ slab in the back yard and use the Blue Raven Ground Test feature to record the test on my Android phone ... Film at 11 ...

Thanks again Everybody !

-- kjh

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

I should clarify a little on my end. Blue thunder propellant is easy to light and it cuts like hard rubber. It does not crumble. (A cucumber might be similar if it were dry.) A standard razor blade cuts it just fine for me. I use cotton thread since it burns easily. I am sure another way could work but I fear (without any real world evidence) that something more solid might get stuck in the nozzle on the way out and cause a CATO. I do not have a very formulaic way to determine the propellant amount. The goal is to just increase the potency of the first fire. As long as it gets through the nozzle, I have not had an issue. I have not tried adding to the grains on reloads. I caution against adding to much, but I have not calculated or experimented with what “too much” is.

 

[cls]

Alternative, get some pyrodex pellets (30 cal, sold for reloading), pack several at the top of the top grain of propellant, and use an ematch to light them.

Advantage is the ematch is low current (150 mA), instead of 2A like FF. And no cutting up propellant grains (blasphemy!) or thermite...

 

[kjhambrick]

Alternative, get some pyrodex pellets (30 cal, sold for reloading), pack several at the top of the top grain of propellant, and use an ematch to light them.

Advantage is the ematch is low current (150 mA), instead of 2A like FF. And no cutting up propellant grains (blasphemy!) or thermite...

cls --

Yes, I used to use e-matches + thermalite for all motors over 29mm ...

I've checked at a local Cabellas and they have .44 and .50 cal Triple Seven Pellets.

Regardless of the available caliber, what do you do when the pellet does not fit in the core of the motor grain ?

Thanks !

-- kjh

 

[cls]

cls --

Yes, I used to use e-matches + thermalite for all motors over 29mm ...

I've checked at a local Cabellas and they have .44 and .50 cal Triple Seven Pellets.

Regardless of the available caliber, what do you do when the pellet does not fit in the core of the motor grain ?

Thanks !

-- kjh

get a box of each, mix n match, can usually find a combination that jams nicely. for others like c slot grains, I trim a .44 or .30 until it fits. the pellets are brittle, so just shaving a little at a time with an xacto #11 blade will do it.

the pyrodex doesn't need to fill the core. it makes enough heat and pressure. try lighting a pellet on the ground, you'll see.

sometimes I'll string a few pellets on the end of the ematch wire, and bend the head over so it contacts the side of a pellet. tape all that to a 1/8" dowel, easy to insert at the pad, for longer 38mm, 54mm, 75mm, 98mm...

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

The Pyrodex pelllet and e-match is commonly used in multistage rockets. I have yet to try it myself but I see safety drawbacks. One of the safety advantages of apcp is it is relatively hard to ignite. Mounting pyrodex inside a reload lowers the barrier to an accident. Modern e-matches are safer than in the past but I recommend caution when using them. Unrelated to safety, the pyrodex pellet will not work in a disposable motor. It is worth noting that Aerotech sells a lot of nice disposable motors these days that are not too expensive compared to reloads.

Note I have nothing against the pyrodex pellet technique and like most techniques discussed here, it can be done safely with the right precautions.

 

[kjhambrick]

Thanks Alex.

I was leaning toward a propellant-enhanced ignitor rather than the pyrodex pellets but I am open minded because I've gotten so far behind the times since I last flew rockets

-- kjh

 

[cfb_rolley]

Thanks Alex.

I was leaning toward a propellant-enhanced ignitor rather than the pyrodex pellets but I am open minded because I've gotten so far behind the times since I last flew rockets

-- kjh

I've done this to get white lightning grains burning. For an RMS24/40 motor, i cut a slice off the top of a blue thunder grain approximately the same thickness as the slot, then slice it in to strips as wide as the slot and push one of those strips in to the slot of the white lightning grain, in such a way that when the igniter is inserted, it sits up next to the sliver of BT. With larger nozzles I imagine you could just tie the BT sliver to the igniter and still fit it all through the nozzle.