New 24 pad Launch Controller for MMMSC

[KennB]

seems like an awful lot of extension cord being used here...

You're right, r1, it is an awful lot of cord. But the system was built for much less coin than the least expensive controller on your link. For-profit fireworks display companies cannot afford not to have something that sophisticated but as a non-profit, we're a little more limited. For only being around for two years, I'd say we're doing pretty well to have what we have.

BobK has found some remote devices he is planning on making into something that could trip a relay at a very remote pad but he's got limited time.

If your company has "graduated to wireless" does that mean it has lots of wire around it's not using any more? Donations can be tax-deductible.

 

[r1dermon]

im sure pyromate would be glad to build a controller that would accommodate 2 dozen extension cords, and charge just as much as they do for the p-45. lol.

point being that one can be built inexpensively...just as the controller that is in use was built presumably inexpensively. adding up the cost of extension cords, plus the time required to lay them out in the field, it's certainly something to consider.

the point in linking the pyromate p45 was to demonstrate the system and how it is configured. i wasn't suggesting that the club invest in one, rather i asked a question, if something like that would be adequate for discharging rocket igniters, as they require more current than a commercial ematch does. once again, food for thought.

the company i work for has plenty of centronics 50 pin wires im certain i could secure a few of them as loaners...sorry on the extension cords though, the only one we use goes from a generator to a circular saw. the point is, extension cord can carry a ridiculous amount of current in comparison with an igniter...it seems like overkill to me, but once again, im not familiar with how much current a rocket igniter requires. it was merely something to think about, before investing in an extension cord company.

for instance...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjLNhJ8To9U

comparative to the p45, the cost is fractional with something like this...no extension cords. im not knocking the current firing system, all im saying is, it's a heck of a lot of extension cord...there may be a better way...that's all im saying. but once again, i dont know that this would reliably light rocket igniters, so i may be shooting blanks here...

 

[KennB]

The current necessary to fire the motor starters is covered directly by the controller at the LPR and MPR pads and their short runs of cord. The HPR have their own battery and relay systems so the current only has to be enough to trip the relay (and discharge a capacitor?) at the away pads.

I figured you weren't saying we should get the Pyromate system but for the evolution the club's launch systems have gone through, the new box was the next logical step. As I said, something wireless is being looked at. On the other thread I linked to, another member with good electrical skills and knowledge has suggested using some CAT5 to carry multiple HPR pad signals to the relays. It could be fitted with the standard 3-prong plug ends to work with the controller and relays.

Next time you're at a CMASS launch, check out the control system. The MMMSClub system is based on it but the LPR/MPR pads use stereo cords instead of extension cords; the HPR relays are connected by extension cords. We do use some fancier multi-pin cables and connectors between the controller and the distribution boxes. I'm sure either club would appreciate someone with some specific knowledge taking a look at the systems and suggesting doable upgrades.

 

[billspad]

The big advantage to extension cords is that they're readily available and they're interchangeable. The CAT5 wire idea is nice but you need to have a spare so that a broken wire doesn't shut down the whole launch. The CMASS controller does use two 12 conductor wires but if one fails we can always limp along on just one.

By the way, the CMASS wires to the pads are mono. They're just zip cord with 1/4" mono phone plugs on the ends. The newer couplers are stereo only because that extra contact makes them more reliable.

 

[Handeman]

I guess I didn't realize how fortunate we are at BattlePark. One of our members is quite adept at wireless technology and built a control unit and two wireless remote units several years ago. The control unit was built to handle 6 remotes so this year it's costing us about $200 in materials to have a third wireless remote unit built. Each remote is powered by its own car battery and uses relays to fire 5 pads.

 

[SAC of MMMSClub]

im sure pyromate would be glad to build a controller that would accommodate 2 dozen extension cords, and charge just as much as they do for the p-45. lol.

point being that one can be built inexpensively...just as the controller that is in use was built presumably inexpensively. adding up the cost of extension cords, plus the time required to lay them out in the field, it's certainly something to consider.

the point in linking the pyromate p45 was to demonstrate the system and how it is configured. i wasn't suggesting that the club invest in one, rather i asked a question, if something like that would be adequate for discharging rocket igniters, as they require more current than a commercial ematch does. once again, food for thought.

the company i work for has plenty of centronics 50 pin wires im certain i could secure a few of them as loaners...sorry on the extension cords though, the only one we use goes from a generator to a circular saw. the point is, extension cord can carry a ridiculous amount of current in comparison with an igniter...it seems like overkill to me, but once again, im not familiar with how much current a rocket igniter requires. it was merely something to think about, before investing in an extension cord company.

for instance...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjLNhJ8To9U

comparative to the p45, the cost is fractional with something like this...no extension cords. im not knocking the current firing system, all im saying is, it's a heck of a lot of extension cord...there may be a better way...that's all im saying. but once again, i dont know that this would reliably light rocket igniters, so i may be shooting blanks here...

The short answer is, first no offense taken as there are many ways to skin a cat, and no cats were skinned in the making of this controller.
I came up with a round number of 40: 100 foot cords or 4000 feet. But to recap the good points.
Every Home Depot has them, 16 ga. wire is durable enough for what we are doing. CAT5 or CAT6 or any multi-pair may work good, but is meant to be installed and forgot, not unwound and rewound much.
They carry 12v. at 300 amp. with no major loss. We can change the set up with no major rewiring, two poles each run shortest run is 100 feet to LPR pads and we can change lengths with out hassle.

An aside a 50 pair cable can be good sized, the comparison of fireworks to rockets in how they are laid out may not work well, we segregate levels and have buffer zones in between them as you know, fireworks mortar tubes are in much closer proximity to each other. Not some here and some 200 feet away.

We will evolve to some other thing I am sure, but this is the second step up for us. We have relays enough and I just now learned we have battery packs enough to run six HPR pads.
How we trip those relays in a safe, secure, coded, manor is being worked on, but this is a beginning.

 

[r1dermon]

picture each pod of mortar tubes as a rocket pad. we have modules with 25, 50 cues or more, at each pod (rocket pad). we have to space the finale 150' from the front of the show setup, we also have at least 4-5 other pods setup with dozens if not hundreds of mortars each. even with the most direct wiring system, the wiring still gets to be a hassle, but i've been on some seriously big shows and we've never had to use 1000' of cable. half of that for sure, 750 maybe...but that's where the wireless comes in. especially with the newer computerized systems, it's a lot easier to pre-program your show and connect each wireless module to the slats, than to sit there all day and wire up a wired analog module that is basically just push a button and watch the pretty colors. municipalities are demanding more for their dollar now, so pyromusicals are showing up more and more. i digress...

we shoot dozens of igniters from each pad in essence. the layout with rocketry requires more pod's, but less cues overall. you could build a single or double cue slat that would connect to the main 50 pin connector, then daisy chain 24 more slats to 24 more pads off of that. your main cable could connect to any slat with 3 connectors, or either end slat with 2 connectors. your wiring requirements would be from the controller to the nearest slat, say lpr pad 1. each lpr pad is spaced say 15ft, so say you've got 5 lpr pads, (just hypothetically), that amounts to 75ft of cable, then say 30ft from there to the mpr pads, again, 5 pads, 75ft of cable, then a run of 150ft to the hpr pads, and an extra 100ft to the +K motor impulse pad(s). even with all that you're well below 4000ft of cable, and there's only one connector into the firing panel.

i know you know im not trying to crap on anything anyone has done, this is simply a suggestion on how to skin a cat a less labor intensive (and extension cable intensive) way. just food for thought is all. it's a system that works very well.

 

[Verna]

Here are some pictures of the brand new launch contoller.View attachment 144495View attachment 144496View attachment 144497 Ready for action.

Guy.

Most impressive Guy! Looks very clean and organized. Well done! Can you launch 24 at one time?

Verna
www.vernarockets.com

 

[billspad]

Most impressive Guy! Looks very clean and organized. Well done! Can you launch 24 at one time?

Verna
www.vernarockets.com

That would be a safety code violation although seeing Kenn trying to hold down 24 switches and switch the three banks would be a lot of fun to watch.

 

[SAC of MMMSClub]

picture each pod of mortar tubes as a rocket pad. we have modules with 25, 50 cues or more, at each pod (rocket pad). we have to space the finale 150' from the front of the show setup, we also have at least 4-5 other pods setup with dozens if not hundreds of mortars each. even with the most direct wiring system, the wiring still gets to be a hassle, but i've been on some seriously big shows and we've never had to use 1000' of cable. half of that for sure, 750 maybe...but that's where the wireless comes in. especially with the newer computerized systems, it's a lot easier to pre-program your show and connect each wireless module to the slats, than to sit there all day and wire up a wired analog module that is basically just push a button and watch the pretty colors. municipalities are demanding more for their dollar now, so pyromusicals are showing up more and more. i digress...

we shoot dozens of igniters from each pad in essence. the layout with rocketry requires more pod's, but less cues overall. you could build a single or double cue slat that would connect to the main 50 pin connector, then daisy chain 24 more slats to 24 more pads off of that. your main cable could connect to any slat with 3 connectors, or either end slat with 2 connectors. your wiring requirements would be from the controller to the nearest slat, say lpr pad 1. each lpr pad is spaced say 15ft, so say you've got 5 lpr pads, (just hypothetically), that amounts to 75ft of cable, then say 30ft from there to the mpr pads, again, 5 pads, 75ft of cable, then a run of 150ft to the hpr pads, and an extra 100ft to the +K motor impulse pad(s). even with all that you're well below 4000ft of cable, and there's only one connector into the firing panel.

i know you know im not trying to crap on anything anyone has done, this is simply a suggestion on how to skin a cat a less labor intensive (and extension cable intensive) way. just food for thought is all. it's a system that works very well.

I do appreciate that you are providing info, and this is good info; anything that is done for money vs. for fun is going to very quickly evolve to the best practices, methods to produce best results.
Thanks Scott

 

[KennB]

Most impressive Guy! Looks very clean and organized. Well done! Can you launch 24 at one time?

Verna
www.vernarockets.com

That would be a safety code violation although seeing Kenn trying to hold down 24 switches and switch the three banks would be a lot of fun to watch.

Sadly, Verna, Bill will have to find his entertainment elsewhere. With the bank selector switch in play, the most we could fire at once is 8. But if it is 8 Frik-n-Frak kits going up at once, it would definitely be a crowd pleaser.

 

[Verna]

Sadly, Verna, Bill will have to find his entertainment elsewhere. With the bank selector switch in play, the most we could fire at once is 8. But if it is 8 Frik-n-Frak kits going up at once, it would definitely be a crowd pleaser.

I had forgotten about the revision on multiple launches but 8 is still a nice number. I've had 9 Vipers for about 2 years now that I'd like to launch as a group but the most our club can do is 5 at a time. At some point I want to do a photo op with them all. I guess I'm going to have to build one more then get on Randy about building a set of pads just for them. We did a 5 Viper launch once that was pretty cool but I think 10 would be even better.

Verna
www.vernarockets.com

 

[guywad]

Most impressive Guy! Looks very clean and organized. Well done! Can you launch 24 at one time?

Verna
www.vernarockets.com

It would be easy enough to modify to be able to launch 24 at once, but as Bill says, it would be a safety code violation. The 3 banks of 8 is based purely on convenience of building with the available parts. There was a 3 position switch that was capable of carrying the current avaialable for little cost, so that is what got designed in. The LEDs are actually 12V LEDs that did not need any current limiting resistors. They were available at a reasonable cost. You guessed it, they got designed in :wink: . The panel volmeter was available at a reasonable cost and unlike a lot of panel meters, can sense the same voltage that it is powered from. The thing I like about the bank select is that there is very little chance of launching a rocket on a pad that has no power. But even with a bank of eight, you still have to throw the continuity switch for each pad and the master fire switch, all at the same time. Another safety feature. For more than 3 or 4 at a time, you need two people to launch them, which for that many launching at the same time, I would argue is a good thing.

Guy.

 

[guywad]

I appreciate all the suggestions. There is nothing in the design that prevents us from adding some connectors for cat 5 cable in parrallel with the A/C plugs for one or more of the pads, allowing the choice of using either. As Kenn mentioned in one of
his replies, electric matches take very little current to fire, but since we don't have relay boxes for all the pads, and some of the low power type motors ignitors and especially copperheads can require multiple amps of current at 12V to reliably fire. Even with
this set up, we have seen it take 2-3 seconds or more of holding the switch and watching the volt meter read next to nothing for voltage to burn out the shorts on a copperhead (or a shorted Estes ignitor for that matter). The relays that we use for the remote
boxes (standard 40 Amp Automotive relays) take about 140ma of current at 12 VDC on the coil to engage. Cat 5 can do that, and I use short runs of it to fire multiple Estes ignitors on something like an Applwhite X-Fire, but I wouldn't want to fire a copperhead
using it at any great distance. Plus setting up pads at launches is about the only exercise I get these days

Guy.

 

[awseiger]

I still say setting up all the pads would be made (SUPER) easy with one of these:

https://www.cartsonthego.com/hose-reel-carts

We could just tie up all the cords... then walk backwards and lay down 6 at once! All we need is enough people so each person gets one LPR or MPR pad, and everything could get set up and taken down in minutes.

And... it wouldn't be terribly hard to use a single run of extension cord to control an infinite number of pads. Low-speed digital communication would be fairly easy over power cords (they're kinda a twisted pair), and thus a little micro-controller action and a differential transceiver setup could significantly decrease cable runs while maintaining the reliability and availability of the power cable. Not to mention it's not terribly hard to implement a very error-resistant communication scheme that would reject bad packets and require a special "code" to actually fire the pads.

Once again, there are many ways to skin a cat. I may look into a launch controller that does this though... Just because I have the parts laying around and this semester is easy. Oh, and I spent my entire months rocket fund on a brand new CNC router for making printed circuit boards.

And once again, thanks a bunch for building that controller Guy! It sure is awesome!

 

[r1dermon]

actually the hose reel is a great idea for extension cables. you could grab 5-6 ends at once and uncoil them all at the same time to each "pod" (group of pads...such as lpr, mpr, hpr).

so, that's exactly what i was talking about with the copperheads and estes igniters...as i say, we use real thin wire to shoot from hundreds of feet in the pyro industry...but we shoot very low current ematches. something like a copperhead may prove difficult to ignite reliably with such small gauge wire.

 

[bobkrech]

actually the hose reel is a great idea for extension cables. you could grab 5-6 ends at once and uncoil them all at the same time to each "pod" (group of pads...such as lpr, mpr, hpr).

so, that's exactly what i was talking about with the copperheads and estes igniters...as i say, we use real thin wire to shoot from hundreds of feet in the pyro industry...but we shoot very low current ematches. something like a copperhead may prove difficult to ignite reliably with such small gauge wire.

It will be messy unless you wrap/encase your extension cord sets together. Wire ties work, but they really need to be 18"-36" apart.

Bob

 

[bobkrech]

The only way CAT5 cable works reliably at high power separation distances is when your launch controller activates relays in a powered bank box that controls a row of 6 high power pads.

URRG used this system at LDRS 33 and URRF 1 at distances from 300' to over 2000' with success. Each launch controller can activate 3 banks of launchers. CAT5 cable is stored and deployed from cable reels.

Bob