NCR Group Project - Proton M

[smashburn]

When I finished my Upscale DragonShip back in 2007 I was going to do a scale Proton M, but lost my job/house/etc in 2008 and all went on hold. I had lots of parts already and now that I’m back in Denver and getting back to rocketry am proceeding on the build. I was thrilled, and a little bummed, to see the PunkRocketScience dudes beat me to it. Wow! awesome build .. really beautiful work. Sorry it didn’t go quite as planned but after my Titan IV in 2005 I know how that can go.

My Proton looks similar in scale .. 12” sona tube w/ 4.5” outboards. I’m loading up the main (12&#8221 with a 98 and 3-75mm MMTs. I have 54s in the outboards, and a 98mm in the sustainer. Lots of potential options in the future. Not quite as authentic but a little less risk. I’m 2 staging as well but may not opt for the fold out fins .. at least initially. Everything is modular so I can add that feature later. A group of us from NCR, Northern Colorado Rocketry, are building it ... normally on Saturdays .. so it'll take some time. I did the Delta II back in '04 with this group and it was a blast .. and an awesome success.

Hoping to fly at Mile High Mayhem in May near Denver ... all EX motors. Also trying to build the ‘lifter’ assembly as the launch rail .. would look so cool. Tracking the build on my site: www.smashrocketry.com.

We're also looking at an Upscale PML Little Lunar Express as the follow up project .. that should be awesome as well.

For those that missed the DragonShip pics I have some pics on the site as well. I lost my site a while back and it was deleted, so I am rebuilding it slowly with all the past projects: Delta II, Titan IV, DragonShip.

Thanks,

Steve Mashburn
smashrocketry.com

 

[[POW]Eagle159]

are the out-boards going to fall off from the core rocket?
That would be really cool to do, but hard. I have done it with 24mm estes engines.:horse:

 

[smashburn]

are the out-boards going to fall off from the core rocket?
That would be really cool to do, but hard. I have done it with 24mm estes engines.:horse:

No, on the Proton the outboards are not actual boosters per se and do not come off .. so mine won't either. They did on the Delta II and it was very cool .. not too hard on that scale w/ 4" boosters. Check out Kevin T and friends BIG Delta III (see InsaneProjects) with 7 or 8" boosters .. wow, that was amazing!

 

[smashburn]

The NCR Proton Project is coming along nicely. With the help of Kevin T, James R, Adrian and others we have good deign and are well underway.

Here's a mock up of the parts at Rich's house and he drew in the 3rd stage for perspective. Also a shot of the booster motor/fin assembly and motor mounts .. 1 - 98mm and 3 - 75mm.

We've decided to make it a 3 stage project as well. We were going to break it apart at stage 3 for recovery anyway so why not put in a few more motors. Depending on CG/CP issues we'll decide whether to populate the 3rd stage or not. The current plan, subject to change, is to launch on 3 - m1500s and airstart at movement 6 - K500s. We'll stage to an L1200 or so and then stage to a "K" or possible 3 "J"s .. depending on final weight and Simm results. It should drop the booster around 3000' and top out around 10,000'.

We are loading it up with motor mounts to provide a variety of options for flight power. We'll have:
Booster: 1 - 98mm and 3 - 75mm
Stage 2: 1 - 75mm and 3 - 54mm
Stage 3: 1 - 54mm and 3 - 38mm

We have a Tilt-O-Meter to manage stage 2 ignition and will hopefully add another for stage 3. Adrian at Featherweight is helping with the electronics design and implementation .. Thanks Adrian!!

Should be Fun!!

www.smashrocketry.com

 

[troj]

This is gonna be a cool project!

-Kevin

 

[smashburn]

This is gonna be a cool project!

-Kevin

Thanks .. how'd I do on the framework design? James helped me fine tune it but the inspiration came from you and Jerry O'Sullivan. We went with 3/4" plywood stringers instead of the 2x4's to reduce the weight some .. it's gonna be heavy enough anyway. I'm thinking, being only 12" dia, 3 of the 3/8 bolts should suffice .. and would fit the pattern best, but we'll use whatever we need of course. We'll have chute cannons up top, on each stage. We're up to around $200 in donations so far and have 7 guys involved in the building so far .. not a bad start.

We'll possibly be using Doug Gerrards rail for the launch, with his 7 digital cameras capturing all kinds of perspectives .. and I want 3 video cameras on board as well. WooHoo!

Thanks! and Uh, what the Heck was I thinking!!!

 

[troj]

I think the framework looks great!

One thing to consider is that plywood can flex a bit when under compression from the end. Since it looks like you have two pieces of it close together, you can easily handle that by running a strip in between the two, and gluing it all together. So, instead of two strips parallel to each other, imagine it being an "H" when viewed from the end. Cut the strip for a snug fit, use wood glue, and it won't go anywhere and won't add much weight at all.

Are the stringers in the picture 3/4"? They look thicker than that.

What do you project for a total recovery weight, and more importantly, for the flight-ready weight of the section above the separation point?

-Kevin

 

[smashburn]

I think the framework looks great!

One thing to consider is that plywood can flex a bit when under compression from the end. Since it looks like you have two pieces of it close together, you can easily handle that by running a strip in between the two, and gluing it all together. So, instead of two strips parallel to each other, imagine it being an "H" when viewed from the end. Cut the strip for a snug fit, use wood glue, and it won't go anywhere and won't add much weight at all.

Are the stringers in the picture 3/4"? They look thicker than that.

What do you project for a total recovery weight, and more importantly, for the flight-ready weight of the section above the separation point?

-Kevin

Yes, it's all 3/4" cabinet grade ply ... Home Depot special at $30/sheet. At the bottom there will be fins to 'connect' the stringers. I'll add strips above as suggested .. though the 3/4" x 4 1/8" ply strips are quite sturdy! They are notched 2" into the CR and 2 1/8" into the stringers. It will all be glued/epoxied together. The lower stringers are also in contact with the 98mm motor mount in the middle, and the uppers will be in contact with the 6" or 8" chute cannon once I cut that in (the stringers will be trimmed to accommodate the larger tube)

For weight I am projecting the booster at about 45 empty, 100 loaded. Stage 2 is only 4' so probably 30 empty, 40 loaded. Stage 3 is 6' and has the transition so probably 40 empty, 45 loaded.

That makes the upper stages, 2 & 3, about 85 lbs on the pad.

If this holds true we'll be around 185 loaded on the pad which is around a 5:1 ratio even if the "K"s don't light .. and way better "when" they do. ... if I'm not off on the calc. James is building the motors and is comfortable with my numbers.

Until I get more building done I'm just estimating .. hopefully I'll come in under this.

Here's a close up of the frame:

 

[Adrian A]

We have a Tilt-O-Meter to manage stage 2 ignition and will hopefully add another for stage 3. Adrian at Featherweight is helping with the electronics design and implementation .. Thanks Adrian!!

Should be Fun!!

www.smashrocketry.com

I have a Tiltometer but I haven't played with it yet. I'm hoping that we can use the same one, housed in the sustainer, for the 2nd and 3rd stage ignitions. I'll need to study up on how it works before I'll know for sure, though.

 

[troj]

For weight I am projecting the booster at about 45 empty, 100 loaded. Stage 2 is only 4' so probably 30 empty, 40 loaded. Stage 3 is 6' and has the transition so probably 40 empty, 45 loaded.

That makes the upper stages, 2 & 3, about 85 lbs on the pad.

If this holds true we'll be around 185 loaded on the pad which is around a 5:1 ratio even if the "K"s don't light .. and way better "when" they do. ... if I'm not off on the calc. James is building the motors and is comfortable with my numbers.

Three of the 3/8" bolts is definitely sufficient.

Until I get more building done I'm just estimating .. hopefully I'll come in under this.

If our recovery guy were reading this, he'd be laughing -- we always come in fat.

-Kevin

 

[smashburn]

I have a Tiltometer but I haven't played with it yet. I'm hoping that we can use the same one, housed in the sustainer, for the 2nd and 3rd stage ignitions. I'll need to study up on how it works before I'll know for sure, though.

Wow .. that would be great. Not too worried about stage 3 though. It will be over 5000' up and dual deploy, so if it gets horizontal and blows the drogue .. it should not do too much damage. Once it breaks apart it 'should' fall fairly flat so should be fine.

Thanks!

 

[Eat, sleep, and Fly]

That thing is HUGE :y: I am definetly watching this one

 

[smashburn]

Anyone who has attempted one of these 'large' scale projects knows they can be quite costly. We are always looking for ways to raise some funds.

I have designed a few T-Shirts and have them for sale on CafePress. Not the most economical option, but they do singles and print each shirt as ordered .. the only real option for me.

I created a Delta II, DragonShip 7 & Proton Supporter shirt and will have a Titan IV as soon as I get a better image to work with. I marked up the cost by $10 and will use all profits for the Proton Project. They are certainly unique and if interested know that the money will go to a good cause. There are also mugs and stuff with the DragonShip image .. an awesome Mark Canepa pic he has allowed me to use.

https://www.cafepress.com/smashrocketrystore

 

[smashburn]

Another great build day!!

Got quite a pile of parts now ..

and the parts stacked up .. yikes!!!!

...

 

[troj]

I only have one concern....

the workbench is gonna be darned hard to take out to the field, for use as a step stool.

Looks good, Steve!

-Kevin

 

[smashburn]

Started work on the Launch Erector I will use to display and then launch the rocket. It's looking good!

 

[smashburn]

Great day today .. some good progress ..

..

The new nosecone .. thanks to Ken .. looking great. Foaming the inside of the outboard nosecones.

Putting on an epoxy coat to protect the fins. Main tube on the rotisserie after faring coat in foreground.

Parts galore ..

Thanks everyone!!

 

[smashburn]

Got the outboard attachment done today and cut the fin slots on the booster. Started sanding as well but got tired

..

Outboard attachment. A strip of wood w/ T-Nuts is inside the outboard and bolts are run through from the main tube. I'll have washers on the Bolts. There will be some additional support on the outside as well .. which will match the real Proton. There are notches in the main motor assembly to allow the outboards to be attached to the main tube before sliding it over the motor/fin assembly.

Outboards bolted on w/ nosecones (unfinished) in place.

..

Fins and outboard attachment strips in place, w/o outboards to show detail. There are 4 - 1/4" bolts in each outboard. Sasha the Rocket Dog helping out .. sort of ..

Top end showing the recovery bay.

 

[smashburn]

Got a little more done today ..

..

Outboards are bolted on and feel quite sturdy. The 3rd stage body needs to be slotted for the fins and pulled down revealing a 2' reduced section. First we have to build the transition and finish glassing it w/ 4 oz.

Getting close .. only a month to go! Yikes!!

Kevin! still on target for weight .. uh .. sort of

Booster will be 80 lbs on recovery .. not too bad .. the other stages about 35-40 lbs each. We're still predicting about 200 lbs on pad. Still have to get the whole thing assembled and see where my CG is .. may have to add more nose weight .. as usual on these kind of projects.

 

[dixontj93060]

Superb project!!!

 

[smashburn]

Looks like we did a pretty good job getting this scaled properly. Note that the 3rd stage body will be pulled down once the fin slots are cut which should match the real one quite well. Great Job Rich! Thanks!

 

[smashburn]

Superb project!!!

Thanks .. wish I could have come up with a reliable 'flip out' fins option .. they really detract visually .. but this project is quite complicated enough as it is. It should be better once it is all painted white.

 

[CarVac]

Just wondering: Is there no better (lighter-weight) option than the concrete casting tubes? You are using an internal frame, after all; why not wrap it in posterboard and put a layer or two of glass on that?

 

[smashburn]

Just wondering: Is there no better (lighter-weight) option than the concrete casting tubes? You are using an internal frame, after all; why not wrap it in posterboard and put a layer or two of glass on that?

Not sure .. there probably are, but I wanted something 'familiar' for this project .. it's complicated enough as it is. Being it will be about 210 lbs on the pad, I think the sona tubes will only account for maybe 10-15 lbs of that.

Kevin .. you reading this? I know you use the tube over framework option as well. Do you know of something other than tube we could use .. would it be worth it?

Thanks guys!

 

[smashburn]

Oh Man! .. we are getting so close! What a fun project ...

This .... once painted . . . . . . . . . . goes on top of this ..

..

 

[troj]

Kevin .. you reading this? I know you use the tube over framework option as well. Do you know of something other than tube we could use .. would it be worth it?

Lots of options, but at the end of the day, you have to ask if weight is really a concern, and is it worth the extra work?

For us, the tube doesn't even get fiberglassed -- it's literally just a fairing that we slide on and off, as it's totally non-structural. So anything like posterboard just creates pieces that have to be permanently attached, while others are not. Plus posterboard or any similar material is going to create a lot of seams to be dealt with.

-Kevin

 

[troj]

Steve, a question for you...

I see the nosecones are all canted. How are you doing that? It looks like they're just standard nosecones, but they're canted a bit. Are the tops of the tubes cut at an angle, or....?

-Kevin

 

[smashburn]

Steve, a question for you...

I see the nosecones are all canted. How are you doing that? It looks like they're just standard nosecones, but they're canted a bit. Are the tops of the tubes cut at an angle, or....?

-Kevin

Actually we used those plastic 'for sale' signs from Home Depot and rolled/shaped them, epoxied a coupler/shoulder in and filled them w/ expanding foam. They pass the 5' rule .. just don't look to close.

 

[troj]

Actually we used those plastic 'for sale' signs from Home Depot and rolled/shaped them, epoxied a coupler/shoulder in and filled them w/ expanding foam. They pass the 5' rule .. just don't look to close.

Big spender!

Sounds like Redneck Engineering to me, which means it gets two thumbs up! Well, okay, a thumb and a stub of a thumb, in proper redneck style.

BTW, you guys should really consider bringing it to AirFest this year!

-Kevin

 

[smashburn]

Big spender!

Sounds like Redneck Engineering to me, which means it gets two thumbs up! Well, okay, a thumb and a stub of a thumb, in proper redneck style.

BTW, you guys should really consider bringing it to AirFest this year!

-Kevin

Thanks .. it is definitely "budget" rocketry .. but we'll still have over $1200 into it including motors (built at cost). In the past I always used auto body paint .. because years ago someone told that's what we needed to use, and I never thought about it after that. I now know for this project, and most I do, that is a huge waste of money. So for this one I use Rustoleum Latex Primer and Paint from Home Depot (thinned and applied with my HVLP gun) .. and it came out great! .. at a fraction of the cost.

If we survive the MHM Launch, Airfest may well be an option. I've always wanted to attend as it is always a great launch from what I've read/heard. Getting/funding motors would be the issue .. as always. This project would never be built if it weren't for the awesome support I got from the NCR members. Over $1200 in donations covered the build and the motors, and a crew of 8 members getting it built.

Hey! one question ..

the holes for the 3/8" nylon bolts (exploding) .. should they be snug, or do the need play? I have them passing through 3 layers of 3/4" plywood. I had to add a piece to make room for the motors (the part that hangs out). So the middle layer is basically a spacer. Should I enlarge the hole in that layer a bit to allow for expansion when we blow the bolt?

Thanks! Steve