More Half-Baked Designs Thread

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Au contraire !

I am with @Dotini on this one.

I suspect the lateral component of tube fins is by far the most effective segment (same is true for standard fins as well, but tube fins have a relatively large lateral component unique in that it is relatively parallel to body tube, as opposed to standard fins which are perpendicular.)

if you were to use a sweep, I suspect the most bang for your buck would be a neutral forward edge with a backward delta on the rear edge, with the caudal tip of the delta on the OUTSIDE edge (although this does make it more prone to breakage unless you go rear eject.)

interestingly this set up may place the nozzle plume partially inside the fins. My MindSim wonders if this might augment/improve the efficiency of the fins. (Since forward end is open, this may be the Anti-Krushnic effect.)

Also, by putting the sweep further back, my understanding of rocket physics says the further back the surface area, the greater the effect on CP (more efficient.)

the data that says that tube fins have the same drag per surface area but are less efficient is interesting.

certain segments of tube fins, particularly those abutting Each other placed circumferentially around the body tube (the classic/easiest is 6 tube fins same diameter as the central tube) are understandably ineffective, particularly those that abut the central tube and those that abut each other where Two sides abut each other that segment likely acts as a single piece RE center of pressure, but since double thick causes more drag.

@neil_w or anyone in peanut gallery, is there any recognized name for the ring rocket attachments to the main body? I guess you could call them struts or spokes, but when they are long and thin (basically just like regular fins, except somebody glued a ring on the end), they have two effects.

first, they DO function simply as fins themselves (unless you make them with extremely short chords). Unless the ring is unduly heavy, which may occur with a 3D Printed ring, if the rocket is stable with just the spokes without the ring, it will be likely stable with the ring. If the ring is a lightweight material like the rings @neil_w and @Rktman make out of balsa, the ring will likely greatly increase/improve stability Margin.

second, depending on how many you have, they subdivide or segment the ring into noncylindrical “Tubes”. For two or fewer spokes, probably the spokes have little effect on airflow. Somewhere starting I am guessing between 3 and 6 spokes, the spokes themselves constrict the cross sectional area of the “tube” and start causing both an increase in drag and probably a decrease in effectiveness (approaching the “closed cylinder” equivalent of a long tube fin), at a certain point depending on the chord of the ring and the number of fins, as the latter approaches infinity (and likely a far smaller number, like 8-20) the ring probably acts as a closed disc.

I suspect this is very difficult for sim programs to “comprehend” and therefore accurately simulate.
Your post simply won't leave my tiny mind alone, despite several pints of beer and binging on Age of Empires II. In particular the absolutely mental term "Anti-Krushnic effect" persistently grabs my imagination. Indeed, two of the first 7 models of my born again rocketry attempted to play at the edges of this concept.

DSC00390.jpg
Die Glocke 1 (never launched) and Die Glocke 2 (several successful launches)

So, to scratch my itch on this rumored esoteric technology, I will build a new, more conventional Anti-Krushnic Ring Fin model on a BT-55 tube using "pylons". Unlike these oddities in the pic, it will have a proper recovery system and altimeter.
 
Your post simply won't leave my tiny mind alone, despite several pints of beer and binging on Age of Empires II. In particular the absolutely mental term "Anti-Krushnic effect" persistently grabs my imagination. Indeed, two of the first 7 models of my born again rocketry attempted to play at the edges of this concept.

View attachment 480218
Die Glocke 1 (never launched) and Die Glocke 2 (several successful launches)

So, to scratch my itch on this rumored esoteric technology, I will build a new, more conventional Anti-Krushnic Ring Fin model on a BT-55 tube using "pylons". Unlike these oddities in the pic, it will have a proper recovery system and altimeter.
More power to ya!

it will definitely be interesting.

something I thought about is that for most flights the propellant burn time is only a fraction of the boost phase (for some rockets a small fraction at that), and the aerodynamic effects will be different between the propellent phase and the delay/coast phase. And unfortunately the boost phase is going from static sitting on the pad to getting it up to speed, so even a smaller fraction of powered boost is spent at the higher velocity. So I’m not sure this is going to have as dramatic and affect as I originally hoped it might. But again, you have proven me wrong on more than one occasion and I hope this is one of them!

I may be in your neck of the woods soon if all goes well! Hope to get to fly with you in person!
 
I didn't comment before, but now I must.
something @Dotini has considered, and would be an interesting modification to your current truncated style, would be what happens when the end of the ring or tube is caudal to the motor nozzle? Is there an “anti-Krushnic “ effect where the jet blast actual accentuates flow through the ring or tube, thus making it MORE effective than it otherwise would be?
I had to look up "caudal".
cau·dal
/ˈkôdl/
adjective
  1. of or like a tail.
    • at or near the tail or the posterior part of the body.
      "the caudal vertebrae"
So, aren't pretty much all fins "at or near the tail or the posterior part of the body"? If they're not at or near the aft end then they're called canards. (And a ring canard is a style idea that opens lots of possibilities.)

Since the Krushnic effect is the over-expansion of the exhaust plume when body or motor mount tube extends beyond the motor's nozzle and acts like a nozzle extension, shouldn't an anti-Krushnic effect be constriction of the exhaust plume by features aft of the nozzle?
1630671447746.png
 
@BABAR
@jqavins
The way I imagine it, gases forcefully accelerated though the center of a ring may cause the pressure experienced just inside the ring to drop. If so, more ambient air may be drawn into and through the ring than would otherwise be the case. Air flowing around the outside of the ring may also need to accelerate to rejoin the stream aft of the ring. If so, the greater volume of air per second experienced by the ring would enhance its aerodynamic properties, lift and drag.
 
@BABAR
@jqavins
The way I imagine it, gases forcefully accelerated though the center of a ring may cause the pressure experienced just inside the ring to drop. If so, more ambient air may be drawn into and through the ring than would otherwise be the case.
That's the venturi effect.
Air flowing around the outside of the ring may also need to accelerate to rejoin the stream aft of the ring.
More likely, I think, but I'm no expert, if there is significant acceleration of the air inside the ring, the air on the outside would not be so accelerated, so when the faster and slower streams mix you'd get lots or turbulence, making for lots of drag. Would it also increase the effectiveness of the ring? I don't even have a guess.
 
Here is a BT-50 fin can I began work on back in March. Work was stopped because the support fins were deemed too gross. But it might nevertheless be suitable as a model which could help investigate a Venturi effect, if any. I will resume work on this model as well as an all new model with minimized pylons.

DSC00089.jpg

Recent testing has shown even tiny fins on a BT-50 tube can stabilize a BT-60 forward tube. So I will slash the size of the ring on this model and perhaps add a transition to a larger diameter forward section.
 
Here is a BT-50 fin can I began work on back in March. Work was stopped because the support fins were deemed too gross. But it might nevertheless be suitable as a model which could help investigate a Venturi effect, if any. I will resume work on this model as well as an all new model with minimized pylons.

View attachment 480347

Recent testing has shown even tiny fins on a BT-50 tube can stabilize a BT-60 forward tube. So I will slash the size of the ring on this model and perhaps add a transition to a larger diameter forward section.

To gross? Looks good to me. Let'r rip, tater chip.
 
Do you have a copy of Van Milligan's Model Rocket Design and Construction? If so, I'd appreciate your opinion on Fig 2-6, in particular the 1.5 x Tube Dia. he gives for fin basic design criteria.

Ultra conservative. That's not a bad thing. But many designs violate Fig 2-6 and are safe stable rockets.

Van Milligan Fig 2-6.JPG
 
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I started looking at some venerable, reliable fliers, but the data are hard to find and read on my phone. As far as I got is that for Big Bertha the fin span is about 2.5 calibers and for the Alpha it's 1.5.

My first thought was that Tim has a hundred times more experience designing, building, and flying model rockets than I do, and that's after having a degree and career in aerospace before taking over Apogee. That doesn't mean he's alway right, by any means, but it does mean that "Tim is right" is my baseline assumption until I have reason to think otherwise.
 
Ultra conservative. That's not a bad thing. But many designs violate Fig 2-6 and are safe stable rockets.

View attachment 480394
So now the question is, how small can you go, 1.0 x Tube Dia. for 3 square fins for the Fig 2-6 rocket?
And is there published literature or other respectable discussion available on this topic?
 
Here is a BT-50 fin can I began work on back in March. Work was stopped because the support fins were deemed too gross. But it might nevertheless be suitable as a model which could help investigate a Venturi effect, if any. I will resume work on this model as well as an all new model with minimized pylons.

View attachment 480347

Recent testing has shown even tiny fins on a BT-50 tube can stabilize a BT-60 forward tube. So I will slash the size of the ring on this model and perhaps add a transition to a larger diameter forward section.
Your craftsmanship may do you a disservice here. Meaning your efforts to do more painting and finishing than required for testbed prototypes.

first, i would go ahead and fly it. I wouldn’t put any more effort into finishing it

second, yeah, fins are probably a bit thick for a four pylon model. But they may be perfect for a TWO pylon model, especially if you round the lead and trail edges. The ideal for subsonic flight is round front and feather tapered rear. That’s a lot of work and rear taper edge is obviously quite fragile. Simple rounding of the forward and rear edges does provide significantly reduced drag compared to flat edge fins. Regarding that, not sure my source, I think it was Der Micromeister, a former TRFer, passed a year or so back, who currently likely hangs out with Gary Byrum in the clouds over rocket launches. (You know those rockets that you launch that you never see again? Not the ones that just drift off out of site but the ones that you never see the chute or streamer and start thinking they just went up and stayed up? Yep, it’s them!)

in any case, since your goal is to emphasize the ring effect and diminish the pylon fin contributions, in my opinion going with two or three pylons in likely best compromise. Zero pylons is possible, (google ODD’L rockets “Corkscrew”) but the flight profile while entertaining is not something you’d go for.
One pylon is doable but a LOT of stress and easily broken

four or more IMO is overkill, more likely to constrict flow as well as more pylon fin contribution that I don’t think you want.

btw, how far a drive is your field from Vancouver, WA?
 
btw, how far a drive is your field from Vancouver, WA?
Seattle to Portland for me has consistently been a 3 hour drive unless you encounter heavy traffic or accidents. It's best to avoid weekends Fr-Sun. I try to do my launches at Waldo Dahl Playfield early in the week sharply at 9:00 AM. If the wind forecast is over 9 mph, I will scrub. Typically, winds are 3 to 5 mph.
 
So now the question is, how small can you go, 1.0 x Tube Dia. for 3 square fins for the Fig 2-6 rocket?
And is there published literature or other respectable discussion available on this topic?
If you're using design software, i.e. OpenRicket or RockSim, start with 1 or 1.5 and then adjust to get your desired static margin. If not, start with a cardboard cutout then apply the Barrowman formulae. Either way, the static margin is the goal, and the fin dimensions can be determined in the design process. Really, that's why design is a process and not a recipe.
 
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Here is a mostly unbaked idea I tried a while back that did not work (folks may have seen this in Facebook groups but I want to revisit it and see if I might make a version that works)...

A reverse wing asymmetric (larger wings/fins in one plane) Cylon raider. My thinking was that if I could put enough weight far forward on the wings that I could get CG in front of CP. Turns out the bigger issue may have been the asymmetry since there was not enough fin in the other dimension. The model totally destroyed itself on landing and it is such a pain to cut those huge curvy wings that I have not tried again.

Here is the video of it launching -- flew like a glider and was not as unstable as I would have guessed. I was wondering if I just spun it if it would have been stable / flown upwards.



1630848406727.png 1630848433607.png
 
Here is a mostly unbaked idea I tried a while back that did not work (folks may have seen this in Facebook groups but I want to revisit it and see if I might make a version that works)...

A reverse wing asymmetric (larger wings/fins in one plane) Cylon raider. My thinking was that if I could put enough weight far forward on the wings that I could get CG in front of CP. Turns out the bigger issue may have been the asymmetry since there was not enough fin in the other dimension. The model totally destroyed itself on landing and it is such a pain to cut those huge curvy wings that I have not tried again.
There's a reason no one flies rockets that looks like that. ;)

I am guessing that a sim model would have shown pretty clearly that that rocket was not stable (and I would surmise not even close). As you note, insufficient fins in the plane perpendicular to the wings is almost certainly a large factor, but I suspect that CG/CP relationship in the other plane is also not satisfactory. An OpenRocket or Rocksim model would answer the questions pretty quickly; although that rocket is fairly far off what those programs are designed to simulate, I believe you'd still get a good idea of CP, and you can measure CG.

Spinning can help (especially when you lack fin area in one plane) but I don't think it would have been enough to save that one.

Consider the various Estes models of things like the TIE fighter and other licensed Sci-fi designs that are not conceived for atmospheric flight (never mind that in the movies they seem to be able to fly in the atmosphere via some form of magic.) They always added a long and rather unsightly body tube to the front to achieve stability.

In general, it is a pretty tough challenge to make a design like that simultaneously flightworthy, good looking, and also as faithful as possible to the original design.
 
There's a reason no one flies rockets that looks like that. ;)

An OpenRocket or Rocksim model would answer the questions pretty quickly; although that rocket is fairly far off what those programs are designed to simulate, I believe you'd still get a good idea of CP, and you can measure CG.

Spinning can help (especially when you lack fin area in one plane) but I don't think it would have been enough to save that one.

Consider the various Estes models of things like the TIE fighter and other licensed Sci-fi designs that are not conceived for atmospheric flight (never mind that in the movies they seem to be able to fly in the atmosphere via some form of magic.) They always added a long and rather unsightly body tube to the front to achieve stability.

In general, it is a pretty tough challenge to make a design like that simultaneously flightworthy, good looking, and also as faithful as possible to the original design.

Thanks -- yeah, this design was attacking lots of assumptions and proven facts in model rocketry (most of which I did not know at the time).

I did actually do an OR sim and I can get it [kinda] stable looking with enough nose weight (cannot exactly model pods but this was what I came up with). OR definitely behaves somewhat odd with this design (not sure it is modeling things correctly). Not surprisingly, it does seem like aerodynamics of a reverse wing with little to no body is not in my favor.

1630852130685.png

Biggest difference between me and Estes is I would be happy if I can get one or two relatively stable flights and then will shelve the model. Estes needs to make something that is reliable for thousands of people and kids to build at home. I am more intrigued by the challenge of getting this to work -- boring to stick a huge tube off the front or back of this.

Ah in addition to annoyance of cutting fins I could not figure out how to put enough space in here for a recovery mechanism. Maybe I could just eject the weights with streamers on them and let the rocket flutter down.
 
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I started looking at some venerable, reliable fliers, but the data are hard to find and read on my phone. As far as I got is that for Big Bertha the fin span is about 2.5 calibers and for the Alpha it's 1.5.

My first thought was that Tim has a hundred times more experience designing, building, and flying model rockets than I do, and that's after having a degree and career in aerospace before taking over Apogee. That doesn't mean he's alway right, by any means, but it does mean that "Tim is right" is my baseline assumption until I have reason to think otherwise.

Some folks like a belt and suspenders. Some just like a belt. Others wear speedo's.

Tim's book is showing a conservative approach in the design section, he's explaining fundamentals.

Here's a stock Estes Alpha that I modified. Let's call it a 10" Alpha.
  • The nose cone is made from oak to increase nose weight, (or you could add ballast to a stock nose cone)
  • the body tube is shortened to 6-1/4" in length, and
  • the fin height is reduced to 1".

This rocket doesn't meet all the conservative specifications outlined in Fig 2-6 of Tim Van Milligan's book.

Nothing at all wrong with the design. It's a stable bird.

10 inch Alpha.jpg


Van Milligan Fig 2-6.JPG
 
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The nose cone is made from oak to increase nose weight, (or you could add ballast to a stock nose cone)

It is funny the things that we use because of what we can do and what we have. I have lots of 2mm basswood so do all my fins with that. I 3D print lots of parts since that is now pretty easy for me. I cannot imagine turning a nosecone from oak since I have no clue how (or equipment) to do that...

Seriously though, I wonder at the different CG effect of a solid heavy nose cone vs. hollow / light nose cone with a dense lead weight in the tip. Actually decided to test this in OR with a model of the Alpha and it made almost no difference - solid maple vs. PLA hollow nose w/ lead weight in nose tip to make both weigh the same amount. The hollow + weight in tip only move the CG forward 1mm. Sheesh... I guess it might make more of a difference in a longer or larger nose cone.
 
It is funny the things that we use because of what we can do and what we have. I have lots of 2mm basswood so do all my fins with that. I 3D print lots of parts since that is now pretty easy for me. I cannot imagine turning a nosecone from oak since I have no clue how (or equipment) to do that...

Seriously though, I wonder at the different CG effect of a solid heavy nose cone vs. hollow / light nose cone with a dense lead weight in the tip. Actually decided to test this in OR with a model of the Alpha and it made almost no difference - solid maple vs. PLA hollow nose w/ lead weight in nose tip to make both weigh the same amount. The hollow + weight in tip only move the CG forward 1mm. Sheesh... I guess it might make more of a difference in a longer or larger nose cone.

Methods engineering: a branch of industrial engineering specializing in the analysis of methods and the improvement and standardization of methods, equipment, and working conditions. I'm a Mech. Engineer (retired) and was hired by a company to be their "Methods Engineer". Kind of an interesting term... we used to just call it "tooling and fixturing" before folks got all fancy :rolleyes:.

I have a lathe, so making a nose cone from wood is pretty easy. This one is made from a scrap 4x4 piece pine.

008.JPG 009.JPG
 
There's a reason no one flies rockets that looks like that. ;)

I am guessing that a sim model would have shown pretty clearly that that rocket was not stable (and I would surmise not even close). As you note, insufficient fins in the plane perpendicular to the wings is almost certainly a large factor, but I suspect that CG/CP relationship in the other plane is also not satisfactory. An OpenRocket or Rocksim model would answer the questions pretty quickly; although that rocket is fairly far off what those programs are designed to simulate, I believe you'd still get a good idea of CP, and you can measure CG.

Spinning can help (especially when you lack fin area in one plane) but I don't think it would have been enough to save that one.

Consider the various Estes models of things like the TIE fighter and other licensed Sci-fi designs that are not conceived for atmospheric flight (never mind that in the movies they seem to be able to fly in the atmosphere via some form of magic.) They always added a long and rather unsightly body tube to the front to achieve stability.

In general, it is a pretty tough challenge to make a design like that simultaneously flightworthy, good looking, and also as faithful as possible to the original design.

Just to amplify at bit, in a design like you have there, the CP is not a single number. There's one answer for wind in one plane and a different one for wind in another plane. Do a mental "cardboard" cutout, and it's obvious that from one side, normal to the big wings, the CP is very different from what it is perpendicular to that.

A variant that might work would be to 1) increase the semispan of the small fins, and 2) extend the narrow wing tips forward to move the CG. Call it a Cylon prototype for a new generation raider.

My hand sketching sucks, but here's a rough notion:
20210905_121035.jpg

EDIT: One might need to make the big wings mostly hollow, using a latice and skins, with strips to close out the edges. That would leave room inside for nose weigh. And I think it would look better that way anyhow. And be a lot more work to build.
 
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Here is a mostly unbaked idea I tried a while back that did not work (folks may have seen this in Facebook groups but I want to revisit it and see if I might make a version that works)...

A reverse wing asymmetric (larger wings/fins in one plane) Cylon raider. My thinking was that if I could put enough weight far forward on the wings that I could get CG in front of CP. Turns out the bigger issue may have been the asymmetry since there was not enough fin in the other dimension. The model totally destroyed itself on landing and it is such a pain to cut those huge curvy wings that I have not tried again.

Here is the video of it launching -- flew like a glider and was not as unstable as I would have guessed. I was wondering if I just spun it if it would have been stable / flown upwards.



View attachment 480447 View attachment 480448


I remember when you 1st were discussing this on FB and we did some Open Rocket designs. Slick they way you added the ballast pods on the front of the wings.

A scroll saw would make cutting those fins an easy task.

Did you build the "Test Bird" we discussed that has streamer recovery for the motor, and a small chute for the rocket itself?

Cyclon Raider.jpg
 
Just to amplify at bit, in a design like you have there, the CP is not a single number. There's one answer for wind in one plane and a different one for wind in another plane. Do a mental "cardboard" cutout, and it's obvious that from one side, normal to the big wings, the CP is very different from what it is perpendicular to that.

A variant that might work would be to 1) increase the semispan of the small fins, and 2) extend the narrow wing tips forward to move the CG. Call it a Cylon prototype for a new generation raider.

EDIT: One might need to make the big wings mostly hollow, using a latice and skins, with strips to close out the edges. That would leave room inside for nose weigh. And I think it would look better that way anyhow. And be a lot more work to build.

Thanks very much for thinking through this a bit. I did think that if the wings were more cylindrical / less flat that they might function less like fins and more like a dual nose cones (I could 3D print more complex shapes). The latest version that I thought might have more hope was with the weights in fireball-like missiles in front (likely with some type of bracket to connect then to the front of wing tips so everything would not move around too much) and additional fins behind the engines in the form of flames.

1630863842141.png
 
I remember when you 1st were discussing this on FB and we did some Open Rocket designs. Slick they way you added the ballast pods on the front of the wings.

A scroll saw would make cutting those fins an easy task.

Did you build the "Test Bird" we discussed that has streamer recovery for the motor, and a small chute for the rocket itself?

Wish I had easier access to a laser cutter - that would make my fin building so much easier.

I never made / flew additional models besides the test rocket in your picture, the reversible model, and the original one. I did 3D print a bunch of variations of my earlier designs but just never built a completed model. I was trying to figure out the best way to spin the rocket early on (no matter what else I do this would be fairly asymmetrical so spinning it would likely be helpful). I think I had settled on dual mini-engines canted in opposite directions as the fastest way to spin the rocket but also considered canting the wings, canting the side pod fins, adding right and left opposite fin tabs to current design, and canting the exhaust "fins" in opposite directions.

1630864382936.png
 
With the flame fins I bet you'd be able to stabilize it easily enough. Spinning really isn't necessary as long as the worst case of the CP from all directions is a caliber below the CG. If it's marginal from this angle or that then spinning might help. Isn't it @Daddyisabar who says "Symmetry is overrated"? (Or is it @BABAR?)

At this point I think it's mainly a matter of style preference. I'm liking the idea of my sketch from post #231 (I didn't make the forward extensions long enough) combined with that ballast ball in post #232. Take a look at @neil_w's plasma ball designs.
 
Thanks very much for thinking through this a bit. I did think that if the wings were more cylindrical / less flat that they might function less like fins and more like a dual nose cones (I could 3D print more complex shapes). The latest version that I thought might have more hope was with the weights in fireball-like missiles in front (likely with some type of bracket to connect then to the front of wing tips so everything would not move around too much) and additional fins behind the engines in the form of flames.

View attachment 480491
I still say put some canted motors up front. Put some in back to eject the laundry forwards or backwards. A 6 motor clip whip, some Q2G2s and yer golden! Don't need so stinking fins on the backside. :) crazy
 
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