Looking for a good kit for Jr. L1

[nute]

Hey all,
I've been flying rockets for a while now, and have become pretty comfortable with MPR and, with some encouraging from members of my local club, have decided to attempt my Jr. L1 flight sometime in the near future. I have been searching, but have had difficulty finding a good kit to suit my needs:

• It isn't real important to me if FG or not, if I can fly H's in a paper tube or something similar it's fine with me
• something that won't fly much higher than than 2500 or 2750 ft. on an H128 or similar motor- being a Jr L1 attempt I can't use dual deploy.
• not a necessity, but a larger rocket would be preferable. that kinda goes along with needing a heavier rocket to keep it lower.
• most of all it must have a 29mm motor mount. I'm 14, don't have a job, and will be starting High school on the 9th. price is a big deal and I just can't afford the larger motors or rockets that will take those motors.

At the moment the Formula 54 by rocketry warehouse looks to be the best option. all fiberglass, 29mm motor mount for $60. the only problem is that it might fly a bit high for me- 3100 ft. on an H128, and it's small so it will be more difficult to see.

 

[qquake2k]

How about a LOC Minie Magg with a 29mm adapter? I flew mine on a38mm H123W to about 900ft for my Level 1. Mine is built heavy, though, I imagine you should be able to get 1000ft+ on a 29mm H. You could also fly it on the new 29mm H135 single use motor. That way you wouldn't need to buy a case. Put tee nuts in the aft centering ring and use homemade retention. That'll save a little money, too.

 

[nute]

How about a LOC Minie Magg with a 29mm adapter? I flew mine on a38mm H123W to about 900ft for my Level 1. Mine is built heavy, though, I imagine you should be able to get 1000ft+ on a 29mm H. You could also fly it on the new 29mm H135 single use motor. That way you wouldn't need to buy a case. Put tee nuts in the aft centering ring and use homemade retention. That'll save a little money, too.

Nice pics!
That would be a nice rocket for what I'm looking for. as sad as it is, It is a bit expensive for me. $90 from hobbylinc, and I think it has the cardboard tube right? I do like the Idea of using an adapter in a 38mm motor mount to fly 29mm motors.
I hadn't though of using an SU motor, that would be cheaper than hardware for one launch.

 

[Aksrockets]

Is anyone getting tired of me recommending scratch building?

IMHO, scratch building is the way to go on most certs. Instead of having to make compromises by choosing from different kits, just build whatever you want!
I got my Jr. L1 on a big, fat 4in scratch built rocket on an H163. My only regret was using a 29mm motor mount. Use a 38 and a 38-29 adapter!



Have fun!

Alex

 

[CarVac]

I, like Alex, scratchbuilt my L1 rocket, but I did not regret using a 29mm motor mount that could only fit a CTI 29/3G at the very most because that meant I could afford to fly it twice a month easily.

 

[qquake2k]

Is anyone getting tired of me recommending scratch building?

IMHO, scratch building is the way to go on most certs. Instead of having to make compromises by choosing from different kits, just build whatever you want!
I got my Jr. L1 on a big, fat 4in scratch built rocket on an H163. My only regret was using a 29mm motor mount. Use a 38 and a 38-29 adapter!

Have fun!

Alex

I'm not, I LOVE scratch building! Hey Nate, what do you have in the way of tools, and how handy are you?

 

[UpsilonAerospace]

Unless your field is large and doesn't have many trees, I would go low 'n' slow for Level 1. Get a big rocket that doesn't fly too high or fast, and you have a very good shot of getting the rocket back. I did my cert on a Madcow Cowabunga, which was a very good kit but one that needs a fair bit of nose weight and was relatively light. If I did it again, I would probably fly a larger rocket, such as my scratch built Epsilon, for L1 (see thread: Huge L1 Rocket...). Remember, while a larger rocket may be more expensive, it may be worth the added cost to get it back close to the pad, especially for your L1 cert.

Anyway, just my :2:

 

[Viperfixr]

Wildman Drago is one of the best L1 kits that I've seen--relatively cheap, very strong, durable and will fly on 29mm H & I motors all day long. My daughter's Drago has flown on countless HP motors, including the Aerotech I200W. Here it is on an H238T.



I'd also take a look at Rocketry Warehouse Formula line of rockets, such as the Formula 54 and 75 (no painting if done right).

 

[DizWolf]

A lOC onyx is cheap, easy, and will fly about 1600 feet on a CTI H133 BS. Totally doable, a few guys on here hav certed with them

 

[nute]

I'm not, I LOVE scratch building! Hey Nate, what do you have in the way of tools, and how handy are you?

My dad used to do quite a bit of woodworking so I have access to plenty of tools, power and otherwise. I consider myself fairly capable with the right materials and tools. The only problem I see with scratch building is that i would have to buy all the individual components, and would have a lot of leftovers that would end up being very expensive.

 

[nute]

Wildman Drago is one of the best L1 kits that I've seen--relatively cheap, very strong, durable and will fly on 29mm H & I motors all day long. My daughter's Drago has flown on countless HP motors, including the Aerotech I200W. Here it is on an H238T.

View attachment 144464

I'd also take a look at Rocketry Warehouse Formula line of rockets, such as the Formula 54 and 75 (no painting if done right).

I do like that Wildman kit. Is it all FG, or not the airframe?
Does anyone have an OR file of it for some sims?
It looks pretty light, but I guess I could just put an extra few coats of paint on...

 

[nute]

Is anyone getting tired of me recommending scratch building?

IMHO, scratch building is the way to go on most certs. Instead of having to make compromises by choosing from different kits, just build whatever you want!
I got my Jr. L1 on a big, fat 4in scratch built rocket on an H163. My only regret was using a 29mm motor mount. Use a 38 and a 38-29 adapter!

View attachment 144461

Have fun!

Alex

Nice!
How'd the flight go?

 

[chris m]

Go to a carpet store , get a 3-4.25 " tube from them.. they will give you all you want then get a sheet of good 1/4 ply . Make your rocket with a sim . That tube gets the frame ,nose cone and couplers. Look at band mates build on squats ( the one built with 20" sono tu e ) cut your rings and bondo your nose cone . = $15 for your rocket minus recovery

 

[DizWolf]

Not sure what the budget is, but I built a dual 29mm 4" rocket out of loc parts for under 100 total.

Go single 29mm, Estes retainer, top flight 36" chute, a 34" by 4" loC tube and NC, and you e got a low slow bird on the cheap.

 

[nute]

Not sure what the budget is, but I built a dual 29mm 4" rocket out of loc parts for under 100 total.

Go single 29mm, Estes retainer, top flight 36" chute, a 34" by 4" loC tube and NC, and you e got a low slow bird on the cheap.

That is surprisingly affordable, I was also thinking the Estes retainer regardless of what I did.

Do you recommend the 3.9" tubing? What is that material, and it says that it has the glassine; So I would need to do something about that, and also slot the tube for TTW fins?

 

[DizWolf]

I surface mounted 1/4 plywood fins, with, *gasp* wood glue. I just cut and peeled off the glassine where I set them. They're big and draggy so that helps keep it low. It's flown four times and the fins are still on through some rough landings. If you can afford to, grab a payload section. It'll help with
Keep the CG forward and add weight.

 

[AlexK]

That is surprisingly affordable, I was also thinking the Estes retainer regardless of what I did.

Do you recommend the 3.9" tubing? What is that material, and it says that it has the glassine; So I would need to do something about that, and also slot the tube for TTW fins?

4" tube is great for low-and-slow, and if you use only a single tube (34" section) it won't be so tall and heavy that it won't like flying on Gs. All LOC tubing is cardboard - 'glassine' refers to the coating, which is the waxy stuff that coats almost all cardboard rocket tubes. You don't need to do anything special unless you plan to fiberglass it - just give it a good scuffing-up where you intend to apply glue.

LOC sells pre-slotted tubes. ( https://shop.locprecision.com/product.sc?productId=182&categoryId=19 is an example of a 4" pre-slotted tube). The slots come in standard sizes, but I'm sure you can ask them to cut them however you want. The site only shows 4" tubes in 3- and 6-slot flavors, but again, I'm sure you can get them to put four slots if you want a four-finned rocket. Even if the slots aren't the exact size you're looking for, consider: the hard work of aligning the slots and getting the basic shape cut out are done. It's a lot easier to expand an existing slot (or fill the extra space if the fin tab ends up smaller than the slot) than it is to cut the slots from scratch.

 

[nute]

I surface mounted 1/4 plywood fins, with, *gasp* wood glue. I just cut and peeled off the glassine where I set them. They're big and draggy so that helps keep it low. It's flown four times and the fins are still on through some rough landings. If you can afford to, grab a payload section. It'll help with
Keep the CG forward and add weight.

What's the advantage of using a Payload section vs just the normal tubing? is is heavier?
I have , get this, zero electronics- altimeters, deployment altimeters, e matches, etc.
for the surface mount, what glue did you use, cuz I use titebond II for all my builds- will that work with some epoxy fillets?

 

[nute]

4" tube is great for low-and-slow, and if you use only a single tube (34" section) it won't be so tall and heavy that it won't like flying on Gs. All LOC tubing is cardboard - 'glassine' refers to the coating, which is the waxy stuff that coats almost all cardboard rocket tubes. You don't need to do anything special unless you plan to fiberglass it - just give it a good scuffing-up where you intend to apply glue.

LOC sells pre-slotted tubes. ( https://shop.locprecision.com/product.sc?productId=182&categoryId=19 is an example of a 4" pre-slotted tube). The slots come in standard sizes, but I'm sure you can ask them to cut them however you want. The site only shows 4" tubes in 3- and 6-slot flavors, but again, I'm sure you can get them to put four slots if you want a four-finned rocket. Even if the slots aren't the exact size you're looking for, consider: the hard work of aligning the slots and getting the basic shape cut out are done. It's a lot easier to expand an existing slot (or fill the extra space if the fin tab ends up smaller than the slot) than it is to cut the slots from scratch.

I do like the idea of saving time by buying the pre-slotted tubes, even if I have to sacrifice a fin. it looks like their tubing is .1 in. thick. That seems pretty thick; is it?

 

[DizWolf]

It's thinner than the 3" tubes, but plenty thick enough. Just add some padding on the shock cord where it hits the tube.

A payload section is shorter than a full tube, and it comes with the coupler and bulk plate. Not needed really, but I like a bit longer rockets.

I used gorilla wood glue, but tite bond will work great. I even did the fillets out of wood glue

 

[DizWolf]

Speaking of shock cords, you won't need anything crazy. Just put a small eye bolt in the top CR. you'll be able to reach into the tube to tie in or attach a quick link to a nylon cord.

I just use a long length of 550 (paracord) and wrap masking tape into a ball where it hits the tube. It's cheap, so I replace it every couple flights.

 

[nute]

It's thinner than the 3" tubes, but plenty thick enough. Just add some padding on the shock cord where it hits the tube.

A payload section is shorter than a full tube, and it comes with the coupler and bulk plate. Not needed really, but I like a bit longer rockets.

I used gorilla wood glue, but tite bond will work great. I even did the fillets out of wood glue

The bulk plate is a good idea- will give a good spot for shock cord attachment, and the added length would be nice.
looks like it's just a couple dollars from LOC. probably doable.

 

[nute]

Speaking of shock cords, you won't need anything crazy. Just put a small eye bolt in the top CR. you'll be able to reach into the tube to tie in or attach a quick link to a nylon cord.

I just use a long length of 550 (paracord) and wrap masking tape into a ball where it hits the tube. It's cheap, so I replace it every couple flights.

well it's good to know I won't need something ridiculous. what kinda link do you recommend?

 

[maxvelocity]

I'd say a Wildman Darkstar Lite should work for what you are trying to do.

 

[AlexK]

What's the advantage of using a Payload section vs just the normal tubing? is is heavier?
I have , get this, zero electronics- altimeters, deployment altimeters, e matches, etc.
for the surface mount, what glue did you use, cuz I use titebond II for all my builds- will that work with some epoxy fillets?

I just built a LOC Athena 3 using only Titebond II and some Titebond Trim and Moulding for the fillets, and you can find plenty of threads around here where people build much larger HP rockets with just wood glue. I HIGHLY recomment getting the "Trim and Moulding" (or "No-run, No-drip" as it may be called now) for fillets, because regular wood glue shrinks quite a bit - it'll leave big voids, bubbles, etc. in the fillet which are unsightly and force you to fill them again later. The Trim and Moulding glue is also a lot thicker, so it won't drip everywhere (like Titebond II will).

Epoxy is also really good for making high power rockets, but it has a few big disadvantages. It's obviously necessary if you're doing anything with composites, plastics, or metal (wood glue only sticks to porous materials like wood and paper). Good epoxies also can be mixed with fillers to get extra sandability, higher viscosity so your fillet stays put while it's curing, higher strength, etc. Epoxy isn't the nicest stuff to work with, though: any serious epoxy will require a scale to measure the components, and you'll have to use gloves to avoid developing an allergy to it. As you've already experienced, wood glue is basically nontoxic, you can bathe in the stuff and it won't hurt you (unless it dries in your hair!), and it's still really strong. In general, a proper glue joint - epoxy or wood glue - will be stronger than the materials you're gluing together.

 

[AlexK]

well it's good to know I won't need something ridiculous. what kinda link do you recommend?

something like this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lehigh-880-lb-x-1-4-in-Zinc-Plated-Quick-Link-7035S-24/100149249

I'm a big fan of quick links - even though I can get my hand down into a 4" tube, it's not exactly fun trying to tie on a shock cord in that tight space. With a link you can pull it on or off as much as you want. Just make sure you get the screw-type links (like I linked). DO NOT use the spring-loaded links people use for keychains and similar. It's far too easy for that spring to come open at a bad time. The links that screw shut are meant for lifting applications, so they're good at staying closed when you need them to.

 

[nute]

I just built a LOC Athena 3 using only Titebond II and some Titebond Trim and Moulding for the fillets, and you can find plenty of threads around here where people build much larger HP rockets with just wood glue. I HIGHLY recomment getting the "Trim and Moulding" (or "No-run, No-drip" as it may be called now) for fillets, because regular wood glue shrinks quite a bit - it'll leave big voids, bubbles, etc. in the fillet which are unsightly and force you to fill them again later. The Trim and Moulding glue is also a lot thicker, so it won't drip everywhere (like Titebond II will).

Epoxy is also really good for making high power rockets, but it has a few big disadvantages. It's obviously necessary if you're doing anything with composites, plastics, or metal (wood glue only sticks to porous materials like wood and paper). Good epoxies also can be mixed with fillers to get extra sandability, higher viscosity so your fillet stays put while it's curing, higher strength, etc. Epoxy isn't the nicest stuff to work with, though: any serious epoxy will require a scale to measure the components, and you'll have to use gloves to avoid developing an allergy to it. As you've already experienced, wood glue is basically nontoxic, you can bathe in the stuff and it won't hurt you (unless it dries in your hair!), and it's still really strong. In general, a proper glue joint - epoxy or wood glue - will be stronger than the materials you're gluing together.

I've seen Wood Glue's strength, as many fins themselves have broken before breaking off the BT they're glued to, I haven't heard of the "trim and molding glue, but have seen how much wood glue shrinks. I haven't done much with epoxy, I've only really used it twice. I only have 5 min. epoxy for now, but have read that 10-30 minute epoxy would be a good investment. any thoughts?

 

[nute]

something like this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lehigh-880-lb-x-1-4-in-Zinc-Plated-Quick-Link-7035S-24/100149249

I'm a big fan of quick links - even though I can get my hand down into a 4" tube, it's not exactly fun trying to tie on a shock cord in that tight space. With a link you can pull it on or off as much as you want. Just make sure you get the screw-type links (like I linked). DO NOT use the spring-loaded links people use for keychains and similar. It's far too easy for that spring to come open at a bad time. The links that screw shut are meant for lifting applications, so they're good at staying closed when you need them to.

Those are nice links. I had something like that in mind, but didn't know where to get one. Actually, my mom has one on her key ring...

 

[nute]

I'd say a Wildman Darkstar Lite should work for what you are trying to do.

I was seriously looking into that, but I think it'll fly a little high, and from what I hear, low and slow flights are better for succesful certs. I would definitely like to acquire it sometime in the future if funds allow.

 

[JPVegh]

LOC 3.1 and 4 inch tubing both have a .05 wall thickness and either would be suitable for H motors.

As mentioned above there are cheaper or even free alternatives. Carpet cores and mailing tubes make great airframe. Retail stores receive their signs and banners in thick walled tubes of various sizes. Graphic design buisnesses often have thick walled tube in thier trash. Flooring stores and home stores are a great source for cores up to 6 inches in diameter.

There are various techniques to make nose cones from spinning wood on a lathe to hand carving foam and covering in glass.

Rings, bulk heads and fins can be made from various grades of ply or other cheap or found materials. I knew a fella who found a bunch of rejected circuit boards in a trash can, he made fins and centering rings from them and launched the rocket on a K motor.

I have several rockets that have recovery systems made from dollar store umbrellas and dog leashes.

My first L1 (1993) was done on the cheap with a mailing tube airframe, cheap ply from the home store, a home made parachute and a store bought nose cone. It flew great and I still have it 20 years later, it's heavy but tough.

When I did an L1 re-do recently I purchased everything from hobbylinc for about 50-60 bucks plus shipping. Kind of expensive when you consider that you can buy several L1 capable kits for around that much. Hobbylinc has the LOC IV for under $70, a great value in my opinion. As was pointed out in another thread Rocketry Warehouse has thier Formula 54 for about $60, another really good value.

The point is that there is more than one way to get there. If you are most comfortable with kits then there are many options for less than $100. If you are handy with tools and a good scrounger you may be able to get there for dang near free.

I enjoy scratching so I went that way, not sure if I really saved that much over buying a kit. If I were more of a kit guy I probably would have bought the LOC IV.