Level 1/Level 2 Certification Question

[Tbird Flyer]

My son and I are currently building two Madcow Super DX3 rockets to get our Level 1 certifications with. Since rocket groups and launch sites for high powered rockets are a good drive away for us, my son was trying to find out if you could do your level 1 and level 2 certification flights on the same day. I am not able to find any information related to this except that you have to have your level 1 prior to attempting your level 2 flights and that it is suggested that you take some time to do some launches with your level 1 certification before moving onto the level 2 certification. Anyone have any information on if it is possible do both certs on the same day or not and if so, the pros/cons associated with doing something like this. Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Titan II]

If you can find someone to agree to sign off on the flights, you certainly can.

 

[teepot]

I know others have done both in the same day. Do your level one. Pass the level two written test and do your level two flight. But check with the club your going to fly with.

 

[Troy3003]

You will most likely have to arrange for someonce to have the lvl 2 motors on hand, or see if a vendor will be on site. Not sure if an online vendor would sell you both lvl 1 and 2 motors at the same time.

 

[afadeev]

My son and I are currently building two Madcow Super DX3 rockets to get our Level 1 certifications with. Since rocket groups and launch sites for high powered rockets are a good drive away for us, my son was trying to find out if you could do your level 1 and level 2 certification flights on the same day.

Yes, you absolutely can.
Logistical consideration discussed later.

I am not able to find any information related to this except that you have to have your level 1 prior to attempting your level 2 flights and that it is suggested that you take some time to do some launches with your level 1 certification before moving onto the level 2 certification. Anyone have any information on if it is possible do both certs on the same day or not and if so, the pros/cons associated with doing something like this.

The more you fly, the more you learn. That would be an argument for spreading cert flights over time.
On the other hand, if the driving distances to cert flights are prohibitive, then Level 1 & 2 flights over the same day/weekend are definitely doable. There are folks flying from overseas to do Level 1-2-3 flights over the same weekend.

You will need a couple of things to stage successful Level 1-2 sequence on the same day/weekend:

• Build the rockets (either one or two, per person) for both flights.
  • If you only bring one, and it suffers damage on L1 flight, that will scuttle both L1 and L2 attempts.
• Secure cert motors for both flights. You can pre-order motors from online vendor for your cert flight (and pay HazMat shipping fee), or attempt to secure motors from on-site vendors. If do the latter, make sure that the vendor commits to:
  • Show up on the day of the flight, and on time.
  • Remember to bring the motors that you had ordered.
    • I am being super specific about the above because I had, personally, been burned by a flaky on-site vendor, and had to reschedule my cert flight and defaulted to the mail-order approach.
• Secure attendance and willingness to witness your flight from a person authorized to certify your L2 test, and actual flight outcome.
  • That means that your L2 flight is depending on attendance of at least one Level-3 or two Level-2 certified NAR or Tripoli members (whichever org you fly with) who had previously committed to witnessing your flight and recovery: https://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-info/level-2-hpr-certification/
  • Someone also needs to make arrangements to conduct and grade your test before you undertake L2 cert flight.

In practical terms, it means that you need to reach out to the Board of whatever chapter or prefecture you plan to fly with, and make your intensions clear to them well in advance of driving to the launch day. See if there are enough certified flyers planning to attend that particular launch day and to proctor your exam (you never know). Head their feedback, and follow their instructions.

If you are willing to pay extra for HazMat shipping, order your motors 1+ week in advance.
If not, explore local vendor's commitment to attend that particular launch day (never assume that they will come), and their inventory.

Good luck, and have fun!
a

P.S.: Feel free to PM me if you have questions.

 

[dr wogz]

Our club kinda frowns on it (and I do too). it's not a race..

You tie up one / two person's time for most of the day. And it is usually a ranking person (LCO / RSO / club mentor / etc..) who is devoting the day to you. Of course, this does depend on the club. some are larger, and have many people you can get to help. Some are small, and only a dozen or so are available. We like to administer the tests at the end of the day, after all the 'rocket fury' is over with, and we're at the diner; calm, cool collected, with a drink.

It is recommended to get your L1, and get comfortable with larger rockets, motor assembly, and other aspects of 'HPR'. Once you get to that level of comfort & confidence, then move up to L2.

And, ask yourself, what do you really gain by getting your L1 & L2 in one day?

 

[FlyBy01]

My son and I are currently building two Madcow Super DX3 rockets to get our Level 1 certifications with. Since rocket groups and launch sites for high powered rockets are a good drive away for us, my son was trying to find out if you could do your level 1 and level 2 certification flights on the same day. I am not able to find any information related to this except that you have to have your level 1 prior to attempting your level 2 flights and that it is suggested that you take some time to do some launches with your level 1 certification before moving onto the level 2 certification. Anyone have any information on if it is possible do both certs on the same day or not and if so, the pros/cons associated with doing something like this. Thanks for the feedback!

I did this due to the fact that COVID had most of if not all of my clubs launches in 2020 canceled.
1. Contact you club first and pay the dues.
2. Coordinate with your certification official to see if this is possible and to schedule ahead.
3. Do a build thread on here to allow your certification official to have an easy way to give advise/ help
4. Coordinate with a vendor for motors (maybe the trickiest part)
5. Sim the heck out of your build, weigh everything!
5. Study for the test
6. Fly, test, and fly
7. Don’t be afraid to not fly your level 1 or 2 due to wind or adverse conditions (this is one of the hardest because it’s a judgment call and your emotions will run high). If it doesn’t sim well or may put you in a position to not recover your rocket; there will always be another day to fly. I drive 2.5 hours one way for rocket launches and have to get a hotel so I understand where you’re coming from on the drive some folks on here drive further.

 

[Lord Rory Gin]

I did this due to the fact that COVID had most of if not all of my clubs launches in 2020 canceled.
..
7. Don’t be afraid to not fly your level 1 or 2 due to wind or adverse conditions (this is one of the hardest because it’s a judgment call and your emotions will run high). If it doesn’t sim well or may put you in a position to not recover your rocket; there will always be another day to fly. I drive 2.5 hours one way for rocket launches and have to get a hotel so I understand where you’re coming from on the drive some folks on here drive further.

Thanks, sounds like good advice. I too will be looking for my L1 (H) cert later this year (CAR not NAR). My drive is about 5 hours to the nearest HP launch site. I have no local clubs either so I have to go to a neighbouring province (i.e. overnight or weekend travel). The CAR L2 cert is only an I motor but I'm patient and will not try to combine the 2 certs on 1 day. Besides I haven't decided what L2 rocket I will be building but my L1 will be the Apogee Zephyr. I want some more flying time before moving to L2.

 

[dr wogz]

@Rory Gin :

where are you? I'm in Montreal, so I know how hard it can be..

 

[RocketTree]

Following this thread. Great information.

I have a 2000 mile (3200 km) drive, there and back, to any of the nearest clubs. Would like to complete multiple level certifications during the same trip. Canada has a 4 level certification program, so four round trips become 13,000km of highway travel.

This is not considering:
-Failed attempts
-Cancelled events
-Lack of Mentor
-Travel logistics and cost
-Covid Issues

 

[dr wogz]

yeah, HPR in Canada kinda sucks! Only about a half dozen places to do anything larger than a 'G' motor.. (with a third of those in Alberta!)

If you are near the US border, go south (After Covid, of course!). Likely easier & cheaper, with greater access to leveling & motor sales. (What I do)

 

[Adam3836]

Yes, you absolutely can.
Logistical consideration discussed later.



The more you fly, the more you learn. That would be an argument for spreading cert flights over time.
On the other hand, if the driving distances to cert flights are prohibitive, then doing Level 1 & 2 flights over the same day/weekend is definitely doable. I've heard of folks flying from overseas to do Level 1-2-3 flights over the same weekend.

You will need a couple of things to stage successful Level 1-2 sequence on the same day/weekend:

• Build the rockets (either one or two, per person) for both flights.
  • If you only bring one, and it suffers damage on L1 flight, that will scuttle both L1 and L2 attempts.
• Secure cert motors for both flights. You can pre-order motors from online vendor for your cert flight (and pay HazMat shipping fee), or attempt to secure motors from on-site vendors. If do the latter, make sure that the vendor commits to:
  • Show up on the day of the flight, and on time.
  • Remember to bring the motors that you had ordered.
    • I am being super specific about the above because I had, personally, been burned by a flaky on-site vendor, and had to reschedule my cert flight and defaulted to the mail-order approach.
• Secure attendance and willingness to witness your flight from a person authorized to certify your L2 test, and actual flight outcome.
  • That means that your L2 flight is depending on attendance of at least one Level-3 or two Level-2 certified NAR or Tripoli members (whichever org you fly with) who had previously committed to witnessing your flight and recovery: https://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-info/level-2-hpr-certification/
  • Someone also needs to make arrangements to conduct and grade your test before you undertake L2 cert flight.

In practical terms, it means that you need to reach out to the Board of whatever chapter or prefecture you plan to fly with, and make your intensions clear to them well in advance of driving to the launch day. See if there are enough certified flyers planning to attend that particular launch day and to proctor your exam (you never know). Head their feedback, and follow their instructions.

If you are willing to pay extra for HazMat shipping, order your motors 1+ week in advance.
If not, explore local vendor's commitment to attend that particular launch day (never assume that they will come), and their inventory.

Good luck, and have fun!
a

P.S.: Feel free to PM me if you have questions.

Well said !!!!

 

[Lord Rory Gin]

@Rory Gin :

where are you? I'm in Montreal, so I know how hard it can be..

I'm in Regina where we don't have any clubs. Saskatoon is active but their HP launch site in up by Lloydminster. My nearest launch area is actually Lethbridge so I will be contacting them shortly. Alberta seems to have the highest launch activity because of the clear skies and wide open areas.

 

[kevindcornwell]

I had a 3000mile air commute to my lvl1/lvl2 launch site. I built two identical rockets (my own design and scratch-built). And was I glad I did! Both were used, and both were repaired on-site (in my hotel room). It took two flights to complete each level due to various flight damage. If your goal is both 1/2 at the same launch window, and the stakes are high, then take two identical rockets. Stuff happens.

Following this thread. Great information.

I have a 2000 mile (3200 km) drive, there and back, to any of the nearest clubs. Would like to complete multiple level certifications during the same trip. Canada has a 4 level certification program, so four round trips become 13,000km of highway travel.

This is not considering:
-Failed attempts
-Cancelled events
-Lack of Mentor
-Travel logistics and cost
-Covid Issues

 

[mtnmanak]

Thanks, sounds like good advice. I too will be looking for my L1 (H) cert later this year (CAR not NAR). My drive is about 5 hours to the nearest HP launch site. I have no local clubs either so I have to go to a neighbouring province (i.e. overnight or weekend travel). The CAR L2 cert is only an I motor but I'm patient and will not try to combine the 2 certs on 1 day. Besides I haven't decided what L2 rocket I will be building but my L1 will be the Apogee Zephyr. I want some more flying time before moving to L2.

The Zephyr is a wonderful flyer and flies very well on H & I motors. Once you do your CAR knowledge test and fly the H motor, it would be very easy to fly that Zephyr on an I218 with motor eject right away. My Zephyr sims out at 2300 feet on that motor. Looks like the Rock Lake 22 event at Lethbridge in June would be perfect for that. Only thing I recommend on a Zephyr is a better chute than the one that comes with the kit. The Apogee one is serviceable, but is kind of flimsy in my opinion. Something more robust may be good for a cert flight.

For your Level 3, it would be great to build a different bird (more experience), but, after your L1&2 certs, if you buy another coupler and a payload bay, the Zephyr makes an excellent dual deploy J flier as well.

 

[Lord Rory Gin]

The Zephyr is a wonderful flyer and flies very well on H & I motors. Once you do your CAR knowledge test and fly the H motor, it would be very easy to fly that Zephyr on an I218 with motor eject right away. My Zephyr sims out at 2300 feet on that motor. Looks like the Rock Lake 22 event at Lethbridge in June would be perfect for that. Only thing I recommend on a Zephyr is a better chute than the one that comes with the kit. The Apogee one is serviceable, but is kind of flimsy in my opinion. Something more robust may be good for a cert flight.

For your Level 3, it would be great to build a different bird (more experience), but, after your L1&2 certs, if you buy another coupler and a payload bay, the Zephyr makes an excellent dual deploy J flier as well.

Thanks, that might be the way to go. I knew the Zephyr was also an I engine bird so I am tempted to do the L2 on it as well although I have several other kits that looking at. Note: I have no idea why CAR added the extra level that other organizations around the world don't have other than it might have been the influence from Transport Canada and Natural Resources Canada to increase the regulations and provide further proof of ability. It seems to me rocketry in Canada is about 1/100 the popularity of rocketry in the US and the heavier regulations might be part of the reason why.

I might reach out to both Saskatoon and Lethbridge clubs to find a mentor (Ha! I'm 61 and might get someone 1/3rd my age!)

 

[Tbird Flyer]

Yes, you absolutely can.
Logistical consideration discussed later.



The more you fly, the more you learn. That would be an argument for spreading cert flights over time.
On the other hand, if the driving distances to cert flights are prohibitive, then Level 1 & 2 flights over the same day/weekend are definitely doable. There are folks flying from overseas to do Level 1-2-3 flights over the same weekend.

You will need a couple of things to stage successful Level 1-2 sequence on the same day/weekend:

• Build the rockets (either one or two, per person) for both flights.
  • If you only bring one, and it suffers damage on L1 flight, that will scuttle both L1 and L2 attempts.
• Secure cert motors for both flights. You can pre-order motors from online vendor for your cert flight (and pay HazMat shipping fee), or attempt to secure motors from on-site vendors. If do the latter, make sure that the vendor commits to:
  • Show up on the day of the flight, and on time.
  • Remember to bring the motors that you had ordered.
    • I am being super specific about the above because I had, personally, been burned by a flaky on-site vendor, and had to reschedule my cert flight and defaulted to the mail-order approach.
• Secure attendance and willingness to witness your flight from a person authorized to certify your L2 test, and actual flight outcome.
  • That means that your L2 flight is depending on attendance of at least one Level-3 or two Level-2 certified NAR or Tripoli members (whichever org you fly with) who had previously committed to witnessing your flight and recovery: https://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-info/level-2-hpr-certification/
  • Someone also needs to make arrangements to conduct and grade your test before you undertake L2 cert flight.

In practical terms, it means that you need to reach out to the Board of whatever chapter or prefecture you plan to fly with, and make your intensions clear to them well in advance of driving to the launch day. See if there are enough certified flyers planning to attend that particular launch day and to proctor your exam (you never know). Head their feedback, and follow their instructions.

If you are willing to pay extra for HazMat shipping, order your motors 1+ week in advance.
If not, explore local vendor's commitment to attend that particular launch day (never assume that they will come), and their inventory.

Good luck, and have fun!
a

P.S.: Feel free to PM me if you have questions.

Thanks for the great information here... very helpful and gives me several things to look at and plan out if we decide to go that route. Thanks for taking the time to respond!

 

[Tbird Flyer]

Our club kinda frowns on it (and I do too). it's not a race..

You tie up one / two person's time for most of the day. And it is usually a ranking person (LCO / RSO / club mentor / etc..) who is devoting the day to you. Of course, this does depend on the club. some are larger, and have many people you can get to help. Some are small, and only a dozen or so are available. We like to administer the tests at the end of the day, after all the 'rocket fury' is over with, and we're at the diner; calm, cool collected, with a drink.

It is recommended to get your L1, and get comfortable with larger rockets, motor assembly, and other aspects of 'HPR'. Once you get to that level of comfort & confidence, then move up to L2.

And, ask yourself, what do you really gain by getting your L1 & L2 in one day?

Bring up some things to consider about doing this that we haven't thought of before - from the perspective of the club who conducts the certifications. Thanks for the insight!

 

[Tbird Flyer]

Thanks to all the great replies on this thread... helps a lot in trying to figure out our plan of attack. Reading about some of you who are launching in Canada makes me feel very fortunate to have areas much closer than what you have to launch at. I now recant my complaint about my drive and time to get to a launch facility!!