KLOUDBusters metal restriction

Discussion in 'The Watering Hole' started by conman13, Dec 9, 2019.

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  1. Dec 9, 2019 #1

    conman13

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    Hey guys,

    I'm currently planning my L3 rocket which will hopefully be flying at Airfest in March. Without going into much detail the rocket will a sub-min diameter rocket going very fast (M3.5+). As I have read there is a restriction on any metal being bolted directly to the motor case, which in my case would be a transition from the case to the nosecone. I'm currently finishing up the drawing for the transition in CAD in order to run a FEM analysis on it to see if it'd be possible to machine it out of G10 however if this is not capable of withstanding with a decent margin of safety I'll need to resort to aluminum. Before I email a BOD member I figured i'd ask for input here first to see if anyone has experience or insight.

    Thanks,

    Connor
     
  2. Dec 9, 2019 #2

    dhbarr

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    KB has never allowed naked cases AFAIK, but at LDRS38 they did relax the restriction on metal noses and fins.
     
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  3. Dec 10, 2019 #3

    ECayemberg

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    My experience is that one should email the Kloudbusters group. If you want to play in their sandbox, you have to have permission to do so. ;)

    I do have some experience however...long story short, I built an all metal (except nosecone) rocket for Black Rock. Electronics prevented a flight of said rocket at Black Rock...and I don't get out that way very often. I was able to fly the project in Kansas after essentially sheathing the thing in G-12. Basically, minimum diameter airframe, not minimum diameter motor casing. As DH said, I'm not sure you'll get away with a naked casing; but the best way to find out is to email the KB Board.

    Sounds like a fun project!
     
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  4. Dec 10, 2019 #4

    conman13

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    Thanks for the responses guys. I ended up sending an email their way and unfortunately received an unhelpful and demeaning response back... To black rock it is!
     
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  5. Dec 10, 2019 #5

    BBrown

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    Connor,
    I truly am sorry you felt like my response to you was unhelpful and demeaning. In the first two emails I sent you, I thought I had clearly indicated that bare aluminum airframes (whether it is a motor case or aluminum tube) are not allowed at the Rocket Pasture. From my point of view you seemed to think that I was missing the fact that you intended to fly a composite fin can. I got that but the composite fin can was not the issue it was the aluminum airframe. My final attempt (third email) was quite a bit more directly worded intentionally as again, from my point of view, you didn't seem to understand it was the body tube not the fin can that we had issues with.
    Having been the prefect for the Kloudbuster's for fifteen years now, over the years I have had to tell several folks that their rockets would not be allowed to fly. No one like to be told no (and no one likes to have to tell folks no). As I pointed out to you in our emails this is a landowner agreement and we (the Kloudbusters) are not in a position to grant waivers to this. My theory about flying rockets at the Rocket Pasture is really quite simple. There is no one flight worth risking the loss of access to the ground we fly off of.
    Bob
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
  6. Dec 11, 2019 #6

    Cory

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    Enjoy Black Rock! Really cool place.
     
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  7. Dec 11, 2019 #7

    jimzcatz

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    I agree with Bob, And Connor, why in the world are you trying cutting edge tech on a cert flight. Dude, keep it simple, get your cert then go nutz!
     
  8. Dec 12, 2019 #8

    Andrew_ASC

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    It’s KloudBusters.... They once accused an L1 multistage of being L2 and we had to bicker in email over tables of certified motor data to prove it was indeed L1 and we were indeed serious about attempting 22,500ft as university group. We had maxed out our Newton seconds and not a tenth over. We took our arses to Utah UROC instead of zero regrets and they said bring it to fly it. We saw bigger rockets self destruct which was even scarier lol. Not every day you see a fifteen-foot sugar rocket lit explode on the pad and fling a grain seventy feet into the air flaming. Seems like Kloudbusters needs to get off their high horse and realize what hobby is and that not everyone wants a boring rocket.... Basically any design that pushes the limit quite frankly scares the hell out of *PROFANITY REMOVED*... Their field their rule and their field consist of *PROFANITY REMOVED* rules to keep people off who don’t follow the status quo. They seem more like arrogant NAR chapters with all due respect. At least they finally relaxed their position on the aluminum exterior. What a stupid rule since the casing on all these hobby rockets mostly is *PROFANITY REMOVED* aluminum. I mean how does sharpie-ing or paint on a tip suddenly make it Kloudbuster approved. In my opinion that R build by Chuck should’ve been allowed. It’s just a bigger sport fiberglass rocket. Didn’t even have sub min construction.

    Anyways I’m done spewing *PROFANITY REMOVED* about em’ just had to vent too. Some places are just such pleasant places to fly at such as going out west. Such a relaxed and non-uptight range attitude.
     
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  9. Dec 12, 2019 #9

    Dipstick

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    Careful Andrew, this looks a lot like your old posting habits...their rules based on their landowner relationships which allows a lot of happy rocketeers to fly there!
     
  10. Dec 12, 2019 #10

    GrouchoDuke

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    I haven't flown there, but if they have an agreement with the land owner & the land owner doesn't want to budge, it makes perfect sense for them to respect the agreement. Lots of clubs have lost launch sites. Seems smart to try to keep a good one.

    One of these days, I need to make it up to Argonia.
     
  11. Dec 12, 2019 #11

    jimzcatz

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    Everything you said is bullshit. We have lost too many great launch sites recently not to be cautious. Until you have to protect a field keep your stupid mouth shut! Yea, I said it. Will say it again too if I don't get censored.
     
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  12. Dec 12, 2019 #12

    Andrew_ASC

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    Well Kloudbusters is a fine field. I understand they want to play it safe. No point on pissing off landowner agreements. I too had a demeaning experience with them in email and gladly took my rockets elsewhere to fly which quite frankly had zero issues with RSO elsewhere. Seems odd how one chapter can be so anal about rules then another NAR field elsewhere can let a L motor fly on a cardboard box without an OR file. My two *PROFANITY REMOVED* cents.
     
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  13. Dec 12, 2019 #13

    Cnorm

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    Okay, yeah. You really should have just turned off your computer and walked away instrad of clicking "post".

    Whelp, there's nothing to do now but watch you get buried under the dogpile that's coming. And it'll all be deserved.

    It's a shame. You were doing so well.
     
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  14. Dec 12, 2019 #14

    heada

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    If the landowner says the only rockets he'll allow to fly are 5 fined tickets painted purple, then that is the rule of that site. It doesn't matter if you agree or not, if you want to fly at that site, you follow the site rules.

    No exposed metal seems odd to me but if that's the rule, no point in calling it dumb. Follow the rule or go elsewhere.
     
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  15. Dec 12, 2019 #15

    rharshberger

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    As others have said Andrew...wait until you have a prime field to fly from and to protect from being lost! We fly at the sufferance of our landowners and they set the restrictions. I know that my club will do whatever it takes to protect our field, our waiver, and our fliers, and our organizations standards, rules and protocols. Landowners willing to allow access to their property for hobby purposes are getting fewer and fewer, unless of course you are paying a fairly good sum of money to them, in which case you may be able to negotiate something in your favor, but many if not most of our fields are either free or so low of a fee as to be almost insignificant, not worth losing them. To give you an idea to "lease" an acre of farmland is between $125 and $250 per year (more or less depending on area), our field is over 2000 acres, we as a club could not even afford 1% of the lower amount per acre.

    And as a member of the board for our club, we get some pretty nasty emails from people on occasion when they are told they can't do something or sometimes when they CAN! We had several individuals from the other side of my state criticize our clubs decision to allow Sparky motors at our summer launches and they had never even seen our field, because of that they did not know that our field is as hard to light as green grass or dirt (sod farm), and what dry vegetation was there between the irrigated sod circles the landowner had graciously had burned off for us by the local volunteer fire department so they could get "practice" on wildland grass fires.
     
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  16. Dec 12, 2019 #16

    Reinhard

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    What appears to be the back story has been posted some years ago, but it wasn't posted by Bob or Lance and so I'm unsure about spreading what might be rumors. My takeaway from the story was that neither the Kloudbusters nor the landowner are arbitrary or irrational for having this rule. They simply adapt to their circumstances.

    Reinhard
     
  17. Dec 12, 2019 #17

    dhbarr

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    Granted I've only been to a few launch sites, but from reading through the L&DRS book it seems to me KB has the Easternmost 50k waiver in the US. Having just done LDRS38 there, I'm glad to report there was no shortage of breath-taking envelope-pushing flights.

    Respectfully I'd suggest that if your experience varies from that of thousands of people over several decades, it might be that your approach could use some work.
     
  18. Dec 12, 2019 #18

    Steve Shannon

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    Way to go, Andrew. With one ignorant, arrogant, and profane post you just got banned from our field too. People have given you multiple opportunities. You wasted that good will.
    KLOUDBusters have one of the best run launch facilities in Tripoli. If they rejected you they had a reason. You just validated my faith in them.
     
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  19. Dec 12, 2019 #19

    cwbullet

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    Well, either you abide by the club and landowner rules or find another place to fly!
     
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  20. Dec 12, 2019 #20

    Arsenal78

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    I’m not really going to get into it but I have yet to see any valid reasoning from KloudBusters on that rule. Rules don’t just appear out of thin air so I’m interested in the true backstory regarding it. Steve, it’s a pity you ban people from your field for expressing their opinion. Makes me a bit happier I shredded my Tripoli card when it arrived.
     
  21. Dec 12, 2019 #21

    conman13

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    I hadn't planned on responding to this thread however it has deviated quite far from the initial purpose. I in no way ever intended to push my build in order to fly at KLOUDBusters. I truly did not understand what the actual rules on the metal restriction were from the responses I received back from Bob, hence my continued questioning. Had the email from Bob been stated as clearly as his above post we would've been on the same page. I would never intentionally try to fly something at the field that would cause a possible problem, hence my emails trying to clarify my understanding as I am the president of my schools rocketry club and it wasn't only my rocket that would have been attempting to fly. I hadn't thought I'd come across as demanding however if that's how my responses were interpreted, I'm truly sorry. I do understand that the restriction is due to the landowners request and there's obviously no room for leniency, due to this I don't think there is a need for any other posts to be made on this thread as it won't lead to anything beneficial.

    Thanks,

    Connor
     
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  22. Dec 12, 2019 #22

    markjos

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    Preaching to the choir, here...but - Flying at any club or landowner’s field is a privilege. We do so under their rules, or don’t fly. Period. Respectfully, arbitration of those rules are a matter between the members of that club, themselves, and their host, not their guests.
     
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  23. Dec 12, 2019 #23

    heada

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    It's their launch site, it's their rules. It doesn't matter if it makes sense or if you find it valid or not. They've said the land owner put it as a stipulation on their use of the field, simple as that.
     
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  24. Dec 12, 2019 #24

    rfjustin

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    Go to a launch there, you will never forget your first trip to the pasture.

    Find Bob, or Lance, or Coop, or John Farmer, or Pat G. tip a couple beers back with any of these gentleman, and ask them to tell you the story. Yes there is a story, no it does not need to be detailed in public for someone to then pick apart.

    See you all in KS over Labor Day weekend in 2020!
     
  25. Dec 12, 2019 #25

    rfjustin

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    Wow... just wow... real classy there slick!

    Meanwhile Bob is shaking his head thinking to himself that no good deed goes unpunished.
     
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  26. Dec 12, 2019 #26

    timbucktoo

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    :goodjob:
     
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  27. Dec 12, 2019 #27

    astronwolf

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    Andrew's attitude is precisely why I hope that my little "NAR weenie" section NEVER gets access high power field. Having to deal with people with this sort of demanding, entitled mindset is where this hobby stops being a hobby for me. It's pretty common too. People treat clubs and landowners as a rocket flying service. It's consumerism gone wild.
     
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  28. Dec 12, 2019 #28

    cwbullet

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    Locked. Any further questions should be sent to Kloudbusters. This is no a productive conversation. Please do not restart this thread.
     
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