Junior Level 1 Certification

madcow rocketry
Onebadhawk
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You say money is no object so I would forget about the details of the J1. Just build a few mid power kits from LOC or Madcow and have a ball for the next two years flying the heck out of F's and G's. Use that experience to discover what you really like flying and build that for your cert. You will gain skills that will help you become a better builder and flyer. Also your taste in rockets will change as you gain more experience. The only downside is actually a huge upside, you will have more rockets at the end of the day!
 
I helped a young man get his Jr L1 last year. I'll try to clear up the confusion about the motor. The sponsoring adult must assemble the motor and place it in the rocket. The Jr can then install the retainer and take the rocket to the safety inspection. The adult must be present when the rocket is inspected and when it is placed on the pad. His name is listed as the flyer with the Jr listed as owner and the adult is responsible for any liability resulting from the flight. This is all in the NAR procedures for Jr certification https://www.nar.org/hpcert/jrhppreq.html.

For reloadables that are not high power, the story is different. CPSC rules do not allow them to be sold to minors, but there is no restriction about minors using them. All that means is that you have to get an adult to buy them and then you can assemble and fly reloadables up through G impulse. That is standard procedure for TARC teams where the adults are not allowed to touch anything on the competetion rockets. The team I work with has been flying Aerotech reloadables for several years and they do all the assembly on their own. Be advised that the Aerotech hobby line reloadables are somewhat different from the Aerotech high power reloadables, but if you get comfortable with the hobby line in D-G impulse range, the transition to high power would not be an issue and you'll need an adult to assemble the high power motors for a couple of years anyway.
 
After almost finishing my other build, I feel really good about this. Since I do not need to cut the fins, and they are through the wall I think I can do it. I am just concerned on what glue to get, and how easy it really is to put the fins in. From some apogee videos, it looks like a breeze. Motor retention I am good with as well, I will be getting the altimeter bay for later use, and would a blast-blanket be good? (Chute cover I think is the more appropriate term) I know I can use my free trial of RockSim when I am done with the build to help me with my CP and CG points. After building my MPR, I have seen that it will probably be much more simple than my 3 stager. I had my grandpa teach me how to correctly put centering rings on, and that sorta of stuff. (I knew most of it, just asked a ton of questions to make sure I got it all). I am pretty sure I can figure out how to make the altimeter bay, as well as how to mount it on. Overall, I think I can do it, not to sound cocky, but after some research, it looks much much more easy than I thought.
 
Orion14ed said:
After almost finishing my other build, I feel really good about this. Since I do not need to cut the fins, and they are through the wall I think I can do it. I am just concerned on what glue to get, and how easy it really is to put the fins in. From some apogee videos, it looks like a breeze. Motor retention I am good with as well, I will be getting the altimeter bay for later use, and would a blast-blanket be good? (Chute cover I think is the more appropriate term) I know I can use my free trial of RockSim when I am done with the build to help me with my CP and CG points. After building my MPR, I have seen that it will probably be much more simple than my 3 stager. I had my grandpa teach me how to correctly put centering rings on, and that sorta of stuff. (I knew most of it, just asked a ton of questions to make sure I got it all). I am pretty sure I can figure out how to make the altimeter bay, as well as how to mount it on. Overall, I think I can do it, not to sound cocky, but after some research, it looks much much more easy than I thought.
Click to expand...


Hi there Orion,

my recommendation for glue would be to just use epoxy. (Although if your building a cardboard rocket wood glue might actually be stronger.)

TTW fins are really easy, don't worry about that. I actually fined there easier then surface mount.

Having never built an altimeter bay, the best I can do is tell you to search it up on the forum. There are many build threads that cover how to go about building one.

Good luck with your project,

rocketgeek101
 
Don't bring the zombies back to life... But since I have made progress, I feel I should record it here.

I have stuck to my plan in my head, get the hang of MPR, before moving to HPR, if I can get a good launch on a G motor, and attend a NAR launch before I have the DX3 built, I should be in good shape.

Yes, I still do like the DX3 as my cert rocket. I now understand EVERYTHING in it, how it all works, how to build a reload, how to get a MMT in nice and tight, and a ton of more stuff. I plan on finishing my Ventris, then going ahead and purchasing the DX3 in Decemberish. I am thinking of getting the whole kit, and what is needed to build it at once, and order the motor, and the things needed for that after. I also want to attend an NAR launch and fly a rocket or two, and learn how to go about the cert at the launch.

So yup, I am feeling good about this attempt, and feel ready, just some things I need to do before hand. Expect a Super DX3 build thread soon ;D
 
I just ran across this thread, and thought I'd offer my two cents. First and foremost, you can't get any cert on your own. You have to do it with club, an NAR club for a Jr. L1. My advice would be to find a club before you do anything else. Find out if the club has an onsite vendor. That will make it so much easier to get the high power reload for your cert flight. If you have to mail order a high power reload, you'll have to pay the $25 (or so) hazmat fee. Also ask the vendor about any cert specials. When I got my cert, Aerotech was offering an H123 reload for $10, and Cesaroni would give you the case for free.

If you do end up with a Super DX3, and manage to keep it to 44oz during construction, it's not going to fly very high on a G. And the velocity off the rail will be low, so you'd need to fly it in low wind conditions. Also keep in mind that 38mm G reloads incur the hazmat fee.

As for adhesives, I use 5-minute epoxy almost exclusively. Not for strength, because wood glue on wood to wood or wood to cardboard joints is every bit as strong. I like the control I get with epoxy, and the faster setting time than wood glue. Plus, you won't get the dreaded "grab" when gluing in a coupler like you can with wood glue.

I can't overstress how important it is to find and fly with a local club. Rocketeers are an incredibly helpful bunch, and at a club launch there is always someone there to give you advice, show and/or help you set up your rocket, loan you a tool or something else you forgot. Heck, I'd even feed you if you forgot your lunch! Plus a club will have all the equipment for launching, so you don't have to worry about that.

I'm sure I'll think of something else, but this is all for now...
 
Oh yeah, retention. If you decide you don't want to pay $30 for an Aeropack retainer, you can always make your own. Granted, Aeropacks are VERY cool, but they're also VERY expensive. If you start building more rockets, you'll have to buy an Aeropack for each one, or at least a body for each rocket. But if you go that route, and lose the rocket that has your only cap, you're sunk.

To make your own, you'll need to put tee-nuts in the aft centering ring. Then to make the clips, you'll need a vise, hammer, hacksaw, and drill. I make retention clips for all of my builds, and they haven't let me down yet. I use this method on both MPR and HPR rockets.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...r-boring-HP-scratch-build&p=293678#post293678

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...r-boring-HP-scratch-build&p=280545#post280545

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?37489-Upscale-Alpha-III&p=416923#post416923
 
Wow, I really like your posts quake, very informative and professional. And I agree, getting with a club is my first priority, the one most near to me does not launch for a few more months... but it will be well worth the wait.

As for your other topics...

The weight will probably go off the 44 oz... I mean, I do tend to over do it sometimes. I was thinking the same thing. 600 feet with that large of a rocket does not sound very safe to me anyway. I may just go right for the H, and get experience with G impulse, and possibly a reload along the way.

5 minuet epoxy... Yes. I can not agree more, I have been stuck with wood glue and hate it >.<. I really like the dry time on it, lets me get more done as well.

Retainer... I am not THAT experienced with retention as of now. I do feel safer with an areopack retainer, but I could take a shot at it on my own. I just have seen some pictures of a motor that flies through the rocket at the pad... scares me a bit. I will defiantly look into that more.

I will be looking into clubs... bad thing is its getting cold and soon to be snowy outside here in MI. Pretty sure that may reduce the launches, but that doesn't mean I can't catch one before the snow falls...
 
Orion14ed said:
... I know I can use my free trial of RockSim ...
Click to expand...

When your free trial of RockSim runs out, try OpenRocket. It's not as fully featured as RockSim, but it is free :)

Oh, and the BP in a CTI reload is sufficient for deploying the laundry in the SuperDX3 (from experience).

Erik
 
Orion14ed said:
Retainer... I am not THAT experienced with retention as of now. I do feel safer with an areopack retainer, but I could take a shot at it on my own. I just have seen some pictures of a motor that flies through the rocket at the pad... scares me a bit. I will defiantly look into that more.
Click to expand...

Remember, retention doesn't keep the motor from flying through the rocket, that's usually caused by a forward closure failure, or catastrophic failure of the motor mount. Positive retention simply keeps the motor in the rocket during the "event", the ejection charge. It holds the motor case in the motor mount tube, and keeps it from kicking out, which would be a very bad thing!
 
5 minuet epoxy... Yes. I can not agree more, I have been stuck with wood glue and hate it >.<. I really like the dry time on it, lets me get more done as well.
Click to expand...
For through the wall wood-paper, wood to wood fins personally, I would not use anything other then wood glue. You can use 5 minute epoxy, but you're not going to get the strength you get with wood glue. Okay, here is what you do. Make sure to rough up the motor tube with 60 grit sand paper. You want to really make sure that stuff soaks in. Also rough up the fin with the same stuff. Spread a THIN layer of wood glue on the fin. Press the fin hard against the motor tube. Apply pressure for a minute or so and then leave the fin for a few minutes. Do all of them the same way. THis will be much stronger then using 5 minute epoxy and relatively painless.

Good luck!

Alex
 
Also, something I have figured out, when you push the fin hard against the motor tube, make sure there is a motor casing in the motor mount tube. Trust me. You'll know why the time you don't have a casing in there. Also, instead of roughing up the fin with 60 grit, take a bandsaw, and make a bunch of notches on the root edge. Improves bonding.

Matt
 
Aksrockets said:
For through the wall wood-paper, wood to wood fins personally, I would not use anything other then wood glue. You can use 5 minute epoxy, but you're not going to get the strength you get with wood glue. Okay, here is what you do. Make sure to rough up the motor tube with 60 grit sand paper. You want to really make sure that stuff soaks in. Also rough up the fin with the same stuff. Spread a THIN layer of wood glue on the fin. Press the fin hard against the motor tube. Apply pressure for a minute or so and then leave the fin for a few minutes. Do all of them the same way. THis will be much stronger then using 5 minute epoxy and relatively painless.

Good luck!

Alex
Click to expand...

I'm curious. How, exactly, do you know for a certainty that wood glue will be much stronger than epoxy?
 
qquake2k said:
I'm curious. How, exactly, do you know for a certainty that wood glue will be much stronger than epoxy?
Click to expand...

The statement that wood glue would be much stronger than epoxy is a red herring. Either adhesive in a wood-to-wood or wood-to-paper joint creates a bond that is stronger than the material being joined. The wood or paper will fail well before the joint will. The argument for wood glue is primarily weight, as it takes less mass of wood glue to form the joint than it wold take of epoxy to form an equivalent joint. However, the argument *against* wood glue is the tendency to grab at inopportune times, making epoxy a better choice for joining two relatively large surfaces that need to slide into place. The only place in a LOC Minie-Magg for example, that requires anything other than wood glue is the motor retainer, which will need JB Weld, as wood glue can soften under intense heat.

G.D.
 
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LPR is what I was talking about.
However, I just remembered you are captain Low and Slow. So that probably explains the epoxy... :)
 
blackbrandt said:
LPR is what I was talking about.
However, I just remembered you are captain Low and Slow. So that probably explains the epoxy... :)
Click to expand...

Yep, I use epoxy on LPR's, too. I don't see any reason not to. But I always tell people, try both, and use whichever one works best for them.
 
Having mangled a few tubes with the combination of wood glue grabbing the thrust or centering rings and my own clumsy efforts, I now use 5-min epoxy for lots of things on LPR. I try to be judicious and keep the weight down, but the few grams I probably add is worth it, given the pain I've experienced from wood glue.
 
qquake2k said:
This is my LOC-IV. The plywood broke before the epoxy failed.
Click to expand...

Ive had epoxy joints fail and not fail. Just depends. Wood glue IS stronger though. It was stronger then when the person used epoxy and fiberglass (see link above).

Normal wood glue: 378lbs
E-glass and epoxy: 341lbs

Alex
 
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Interesting debate... There must be a way to make to get the best of both worlds, but that may take some fiddling around. I can always try wood vs epoxy on MPRs. In my Ventris, I used epoxy, and within an hour it is as hard as a rock. From past experience wood glue has never failed me with MMT and centering rings. Never have used it on the fins...

Is the fast dry time really worth it if wood glue does dry faster? I am not taking sides... just wondering. I must say, I really enjoy holding a fin down for 5 mins, and letting it set for 20 mins and coming down to the rock hard epoxy. But wood glue has never failed me either...
 

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