# Introduction and question

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#### Forced_Induction

##### Active Member
Hello all,
First post for me on this forum. At the beginning of this year my dad bought my 2 year old son an estes starter kit for christmas. Hes a snap-on tools dealer and gets the snap-on rockets as promotional items. Ive flown rockets as a kid (now 31) but didnt think my son would love them as much as he did. Me being an avid RC hobbyist as well, it didnt take much convincing to get me involved.

We lost that rocket due to a broken shock cord and then bought an estes black diamond. It is a fun rocket with 13 flights on it now, but im not a fan of the plastic fins and decided i could do better for cheaper seeing as im tooled up for rc plane kits. Ive since build 3 more rockets using BT50 tubes and fired 3 reloads on my rms 18/20. Ive also bought an rms 24/40 and 12 more reloads, more building materials, a firefly altimeter, and am working on getting an eggfinder.

well the most recent outing was an interesting one. I built a short lightweight rocket using an 8in BT50 body tube. i flew it once on an estes c6-5 and it flew beautifully. according to my firefly it hit 1047ft and 322mph. so for the next flight i loaded a d13w-10 reload into it and lit it off. It hauled ass! flew incredibly well. and when it came time for the ejection charge, saw the smoke puff, and nothing else. at all. no parachute, no pieces, nothing. i hunted in the field for a while but nothing was to be seen.

It was impressive to watch, but im disappointed i lost my rms 18/20 and firefly. My question is this: how loose should the nose cone be in the tube? the first ejection on the c6-5 was fine, but this nose cone was a bit tighter than any of my other rockets. could it have blown the rocket apart? It wasnt a really tight fit but more snug than the others i built.

any thoughts?

PS: this hobby is as addicting as the others ive got going. seeing that rocket haul ass with the relaodable motor was incredible! I cant wait to put together a BT55 rocket for mt RMS 24/40!

#### scsager

##### Slightly burned-out old guy
Welcome to the forum!

A couple of flights in, and it sounds like you're hooked!

I wonder if... the 18/20 RMS case "kicked" loose from the motor hook when the ejection charge went off. The motor shoots out the back - instead of the nose cone coming off the top with the chute.

The falling motor - almost impossible to see from 1500+ feet up. The rocket - arcs' over still in one piece, and comes down "ballistic" like a falling arrow. Also very hard to see. With small rockets at 1000+ feet it really helps to have a few friends help watch the rocket.

Motor - a wrap of masking tape around the motor and hook help with positive motor retention. Also important with "RMS" motors, don't forget the ejection charge when building the motor.

Rule of thumb for small low power rockets... You should be able to pick up the rocket by the nosecone without separation, a reasonably hard "shake" to jerk the nosecone free is all it should take to separate.

Oh... one more thing... PICTURES!!!! we love pictures!!

#### kcobbva

Welcome to the forum. I agree with all of scsagers points. I forgot the ejection charge once and a nice ballistic dive took place. The nose cone rule is spot on. If it's loose, wrap a strip of tape around the nosecone lip so it's snug enough to do what he said above. Wish you and your son many awesome flights ahead!

#### K'Tesh

##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris
TRF Supporter
Welcome to the forum...

I'm too late to answer the question you posted. However, I did want to emphasize the importance of the last thing scsager said... Pictures! We love to see them!

Again, Welcome!

Welcome to the forum. ..
You sure did come to the right place for rocketry education. ..
Yep,, in rocketry, , both ends,, fit is everything. .
As your rockets get bigger and you begin ground testing deployment set ups
you'll get a feel for how snug the nose should be. ...

Teddy

#### Rex R

##### LV2
there are a number of possibilities; 1) the chute deployed normally and the rocket simply drifted away(not an uncommon fate for Estes size low power birds on D power, try looking at the apparent size of a stop sign from a 1/4 mile away ) 2) the nose deployed but the chute did not. 3) both engine and chute deployed leaving the rocket to a good bit lighter(and slower descent). 4) motor ejected/deployed/kicked out(likely if you were using an Estes style motor hook, cure is to secure the hook).
one thing that helps for tracking the rocket is, use longer wires on your launch controller (30 - 40'), not only does the safety code require this for E and F impulse motors, it is a lot easier on your neck .
Welcome to the forum.
Rex

#### cherokeej

##### Well-Known Member
That's exactly what happened. You kicked the motor. The Estes motor hook works well with the paper cased BP motors, but isn't so hot for the AT 18-20, unless you put something on there to hold it... Tape, or a small plastic cable tie. The nozzle is in the way, so the hook doesn't grab and hold the motor well.

#### Bat-mite

##### Rocketeer in MD
Hello, and welcome! These guys seem to have it figured out. I just wanted to add that losing rockets is, sadly, a legitimate part of the hobby. It is how we learn. My biggest loss was a Rocketry Warehouse X-Celerator. Got it on a 50% off sale for $99, but inside were a$200 GPS tracker, a $160 motor casing, a$50 altimeter, two $35 harnesses, a main chute and a drogue shoot, several quick-links, a motor retainer, and a full-wrap decal. And that was right after I paid$300 to get it out of a tree from a previous flight. So there went over a grand -- poof!

#### dr wogz

##### Fly caster
Welcome!

I to am a an avid RC pilot. When I build a plane, there's usually a rocket or two on the end of the bench.. Something to do while ribs dry, or an excuse for that little bit of left-over epoxy!

Get a simulator, such as OpenRocket (or use Thrustcuve) to get a pretty accurate expected altitude. In some cases, smaller rockets that reach 1K feet, a Mylar streamer in place or a parachute might be in order. The silver is more reflective as it flutters down, so can be seen by reflection rather than looking for a 'dot'..

#### Forced_Induction

##### Active Member
Thanks for all the great replies guys!

The first firing of the 18-20 was in a loaded rocket secured to a test stand (Taped to a saw horse) in my testing facility (backyard). my wife, 2.5 year old son, 1 month old son and I were watching from the porch. Needless to say a couple of us were crying and a couple were ducking and covering. I couldn't believe the sound that came out of that motor. When the ejection charge fired, it popped the parachute out one end and the motor tube hit the fence the other direction. I thought bending the hook a bit more would help and it did for one launch but not the second one.

Its kind of strange. Ive given the advice of buying bigger for RC on forums for years and here I am flying $2k+ rc aircraft and complaining about losing a$35 altimeter lol.

Heres the 3 rockets I have atm.

The white one has 8 flights so far. 7 on estes C6-5s, and 1 on a D13W-7. the only flight I got info on was a C6-5. I got 208mph and 800ft.
The black diamond is "Max's rocket" (my son). 253ft and 82mph is what I got on that one.
The tube fin rocket hasnt been flown yet. Im curious to see how it does.

This is the only picture I have of the rocket I lost. I painted the rocket and gave max a sharpie to decorate the "spiderman rocket". My wife came up with the super hero theme and I like it because Im not very creative in my finishing. the next one I build will be a "batman" BT55 rocket for an AT 24-40.

Ive attached the 3 openrocket files that ive built. the one with BT50 in the title is the white rocket pictured. "tube fins" is the grey rocket, and "shorty" is the rocket I lost the other day. I did get data back form a c6-5 flight on it: 1047ft and 322mph. I think im more disappointed i didnt get the flight data than i am i lost the rocket.

The BT55 file is the next one Im planning on building. Itll have an eggfinder and a firefly altimeter in the electronics bay. Probably overkill but id like to get used to using them for *when* i go bigger.

View attachment RMS 18mm Shorty.ork

View attachment BT50 Aerotech RMS 18mm.ork

View attachment RMS 18mm Tube Fins.ork

View attachment RMS 24-40 BT55 with Ebay.ork

#### Bat-mite

##### Rocketeer in MD
We love pictures of kids with rockets!

#### 75Grandville

##### Well-Known Member
All kinds of fun! In addition to what's been posted above, you may want to add tracking powder to those high-flying flights. If you have a chalk line, just squirt some powdered chalk in after you pack in the parachute/streamer, perhaps separated by a piece of wadding to keep things from getting too messy. Then, at apogee, you get a puff of powder when the ejection event takes place. Just another trick to help find a tiny rocket at 1,000'+

BTW, I did a very similar thing. First flight of my 18/20 case was in a Corona (long BT-50 based rocket) on a windy day. Went up great. Chute came out, and it headed northeast at a high rate of speed. Never found it again!

If you are going for high altitude flights, you might want to consider single use engines, a streamer, cutting a spill hole in the chute, downsizing the chute, etc. All kinds of tricks to bring the rocket back down more quickly. We have contests in the next month with D Eggloft Altitude (how high can you launch an egg on a D motor), and I've been waffling between using my 18/20 casing (slightly better performance) vs a SU motor (couple extra bucks, but not out $30 if I lose the rocket). Can't bring the rocket down too quick or the egg breaks. As far as hauling, a BT55 or BT60 on a reload will be outta sight in no time! I flew a modified Kraken (BT-60) on an E15, and it was like it teleported. A CTI F240 is even more impressive (burn time is 0.3s), can teleport a fiberglass rocket to 1300 feet in the blink of an eye! p.s. Firefly directly from PerfectFlite should only run$26.48, shipped, to CONUS. http://www.perfectflitedirect.com/firefly-altimeter/

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#### Forced_Induction

##### Active Member
I live in Canada. That's where the \$35 price comes from. I had a 8.5" garbage bag parachute on it so it was pretty small but I'm tempted to test a few streamers. I'm going to look into the chalk as well thanks.

Great pic with the youngun,, lol...

Teddy

#### dr wogz

##### Fly caster
Can you be more specific? There' a few of us Canucks here!

#### Zeus-cat

##### Well-Known Member
Flying with a club is great. I can't recommend it enough. Hopefully there is one near you. You get more eyes on your rockets so losing them is less likely. Granted, since a lot of us are older those eyes may be nearsighted, have cataracts, are bloodshot, etc., but they are better than nothing. And you might just learn something...

#### Rex R

##### LV2
a Big Bertha on a D really hauls the mail...on an E20...well it isn't quite a teleport of the pad, but it is close. best to load a 4 oz payload in it for Ds . we wont mention what they do on G impulse motors.
Rex

Can you be more specific? There' a few of us Canucks here!
I thought it was Canook...
That's what I call Michael P...

I bet he never corrected me cause he's been laughing at me,,
while I'm supposed to be laughing at him...
Why that stinker... lol...

Teddy

#### mpitfield

##### Moderator
Staff member
Global Mod
I thought it was Canook...
That's what I call Michael P...

I bet he never corrected me cause he's been laughing at me,,
while I'm supposed to be laughing at him...
Why that stinker... lol...

Teddy
Ah Teddy you crazy Yonk, I am laughing at you, not with you; or something like that

#### dr wogz

##### Fly caster
I might have something say aboot that, eh..

sorry..

What's a yonk,,lol..

I'm aboot a yonk...

I don't think that worked,, lol..

Teddy

#### dford

I am pretty new to the forum myself, but i'll still say hello and welcome.
+1 to snap line chalk on small rockets.
I feel your pain losing a case. The first rocket I built getting back into it as an adult was a 29 / 40-120 motor rocket with case. El Booger.
I did a build thread and everything. I didn't realize how much thrust a G76 had...yeah, she flew into pieces. Good lookin confetti.
Never found the case. Learned a lot. Now I am bugging these guys with more "question" threads.
I feel like the small rockets get lost easier than the large ones. I haven't lost a big(ger) one yet. Then again i've only hit 3800+ish'
Check out the "what do you do for a living thread" in the watering hole. LOTS of VERY educated and super talented people on TRF.

View attachment 302487View attachment 302488View attachment 302489
We love pictures of kids with rockets!
Couldn't figure a way to flip them...my oldest two, of four

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#### neil_w

##### Working on 20K
TRF Supporter
Great pics! That purple and gold paint job is very slick.

#### Forced_Induction

##### Active Member
I'm from a town near Edmonton, Alberta. I've looked into clubs in the area a bit but it seems that there'll be a lot of travelling to events.

As far as line chalk, I've worked many construction jobs and I hate dealing with that stuff when it's contained in a chalk line, I couldn't imagine dumping it in a rocket. I'll look into it though.

#### tomsteve

##### Well-Known Member
welcome!!
my addiction----errr--- HOBBY is all due to my 3 year old great nephew. its his fault I have over 15 rockets in less than a year as a REBAR!:kill:

couple things I like to do on them lil high fliers and was mentioned- chalk line chalk in the BT. red seems to show the best,imo. blue can blend in with the sky.
name and email on the chute.

staging and clustering= coolness!

#### TangoJuliet

##### Well-Known Member
Welcome! I'm also returning to rockets, and have been an R/C Aeromodeler for the last 30 years. I haven't yet fired a reloadable motor, but I'm finishing a NCR Laserhawk and have a CTI 29mm case for it. In my younger days, before I could afford R/C (not sure that I can even really afford it now ), I really enjoyed the rocket hobby and even competed in NAR events for a few years. Colored chalk, or Red Tempera paint powder was what we used to help spot rockets at apogee. Be forewarned though, it gets everywhere! Not a big deal on unpainted competition rockets. A bit different story on a model that you spent considerable time finishing and painting.

#### cwbullet

##### Obsessed with Rocketry
Staff member
Global Mod
Welcome. It is great to see more families getting involved in rocketry.

#### Forced_Induction

##### Active Member
My wife just spent the day with her mom and aunt and was telling me how Max kept telling them about the rockets. "spider man go boom" (spider man being the rocket we lost) , "daddy's rocket goes REALLY REALLY high! " I never thought a kid under 3 would love it this much. It makes it that much more enjoyable for me. I love hearing those stories. I work away from home 1 week on and 1 week off, every time I come home he's asking to either launch or build rockets.

#### TangoJuliet

##### Well-Known Member
Cherish these memories you're making. He'll be grown before you know it. I work the same schedule, but I'm older now and my kids are adults making their own lives.

#### Forced_Induction

##### Active Member
Rofl, so im officially 1 for 3 on the 18mm RMS motors. I decided to try launching the white and black rocket pictured above with a D13 reload. same thing as before. lost it on the way up, and then nothing. I thought it would be ok as I did have a successful recovery on this rocket with a D13 already but i was wrong. The motor hook was flush with the bottom of the body tube so i had nowhere to fasten the hook to the motor. I think im done with the 18mm reloads. the 24mm RMS has way more options for reloads so i think im going to stick with this one, with bigger rockets for now.