ICEs and EVs

[kuririn]

The small difference is that during the 60's the nation was greatly expanding electrical production with massive additions of firm 24/7 fossil fuel and nuclear power generation. Now we are decommissioning these firm 24/7 power generators and replacing them with intermittent power sources. NYISO knows a thing or 2 about grids is raising the alarm in NY.

https://www.empirecenter.org/publications/nyiso-new-york-electric-grid-remains-at-risk/
The reason why is no mystery – under existing state environmental policies, the state is losing reliable electricity generation resources faster than new ones are being brought on line.

Fortunately, it seems that American's at large really do not want EV's as evidenced by the poor sales of Ford, GMand European offerings. It seems people really want Teslas, not EV's broadly. So our grid will remain at marginal capacity (instead of robust capacity) for a while longer.

These scientists would beg to differ:
https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/renewable-energy-reliable
And if the New York grid is closing fossil fuel generation capacity faster than it is replacing it with renewables than that is poor planning, not an indictment against the technology.

"Looking further down the road, a groundbreaking study found that the U.S. can generate 80 percent of its electricity from renewables by 2050 using existing technologies, with as much as half coming from wind and solar, while reliably meeting electricity demand across the country every hour of every day, year-round."

 

[kuririn]

it seems that American's at large really do not want EV's as evidenced by the poor sales of Ford, GMand European offerings.

The Model T cost $850 when it went on sale in 1908.
That's the equivalent of over $28,000 today.
Close to the MSRP of the Chevy Bolt.
I imagine the public was saying:
"There aren't any gas stations to refuel that contraption. What if I run out in the middle of nowhere?"
"There aren't enough paved roads to drive that thing".
"I'll keep my old reliable horse and buggy, thank you".
"For $850 I could feed Nellie all the hay she wants for the rest of her life".
"What if it breaks down? Who's going to fix it?"
People are resistant to change.
But sooner or later common sense will prevail.
When production gets scaled up and the economies of scale lower the price dramatically then there will be a monumental tipping point.

 

[kuririn]

I just read an article about impending consequences for manufacturers of auto parts with the coming electrification of autos and found this fact interesting.
Typical number of moving parts in the drivetrain:
ICEs: 2000
EVs: 20

 

[jderimig]

I just read an article about impending consequences for manufacturers of auto parts with the coming electrification of autos and found this fact interesting.
Typical number of moving parts in the drivetrain:
ICEs: 2000
EVs: 20

As a reliability engineer I like that, ALOT. UAW will not like that at all.

Curious how many parts in a Telsa battery?

 

[kuririn]

Curious how many parts in a Telsa battery?

Moving parts, maybe 0?
Number of battery cells, several thousand.

 

[dr wogz]

Number of battery cells, several thousand.

number of parts vs number of repeated parts..

 

[Dotini]

From watching the business news, my takeaway is the following:
- Detroit has made more EVs than they can sell
- Consumers prefer hybrids over EVs
- Both are ridiculously priced compared to ICEs.

If I had to replace my current car, a fully equipped 2017 Toyota Yaris iA with 18k miles, I would buy a new Hyundai Venue Limited for $25k.

 

[boatgeek]

As a reliability engineer I like that, ALOT. UAW will not like that at all.

Curious how many parts in a Telsa battery?

I know it’s not the question you asked, but moving parts are either zero or a couple depending on whether the cooling pump(s) are integrated into the battery or not. From the car factory’s perspective, the battery itself is more or less one part, with the battery itself made off site in another factory.

On a semi related note, it would be interesting to see what the various manufacturers are doing in terms of numbers of individual cells in their battery packs.

 

[jderimig]

are integrated into the battery or not. From the car factory’s perspective, the battery itself is more or less one part, with the battery itself made off site in another factory.

To be consistent, the car assembly plant would score the engine, transmission and gas tank as 1 part each.

The engine factory and the battery factory would score those consisting of many parts. I think Telsa batteries have more parts than modern engines.

 

[kuririn]

To be consistent, the car assembly plant would score the engine, transmission and gas tank as 1 part each.

The engine factory and the battery factory would score those consisting of many parts. I think Telsa batteries have more parts than modern engines.

How many moving parts?

 

[Funkworks]

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...ry-electric-super-sports-sedan-301895475.html

 

[Tyeeking]

Nothing necessarily wrong with moving parts as long as they are well made and maintained. Diesel engines go a long time when properly maintained. I sold a 7.3L Excursion with just shy of 500,000 miles on it for some serious coin. Mechanic who gave it a clean bill of health said it would likely go another 300,000 - 500,000 miles before needing a rebuild.

 

[kuririn]

Diesel engines are tough and rugged. They're built that way to withstand the higher compression values in the cylinders. They're also heavier than comparable ICEs.
But I think that most would agree that the more moving parts there are in a system then the greater the chance of a failure in that system.

 

[darrenf]

I know it’s not the question you asked, but moving parts are either zero or a couple depending on whether the cooling pump(s) are integrated into the battery or not. From the car factory’s perspective, the battery itself is more or less one part, with the battery itself made off site in another factory.

On a semi related note, it would be interesting to see what the various manufacturers are doing in terms of numbers of individual cells in their battery packs.

As of last year with the newest battery Tesla is using...
"The Tesla Model Y's 2170 battery pack contains 4400 individual cells which require four spot welds each. By contrast, the 4680 pack contains just 830 cells with two welds per cell – requiring approximately 940 less welds – leading to the reduced production costs."--- https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-model-y-cost-to-reduce-4680-battery/

 

[bjphoenix]

But I think that most would agree that the more moving parts there are in a system then the greater the chance of a failure in that system.

My father owned a car repair business for over 60 years, he replaced a lot of moving parts. Moving parts in cars have gotten a lot more reliable. I was sitting here wondering how the drivetrain in a car has 2000 parts, what constitutes the drivetrain and what constitutes a part. A pushrod V8 engine has 18 parts per cylinder times 8 cylinders, that's 144 parts. Add the crankshaft and camshaft and that's 146. Do we count a connecting rod as 1 part or 8? If we're going to do that then we have to count the individual plates making up the electric motor and each piece of wire in the winding.
There is a youtube channel that has very carefully and thoroughly dissected a Tesla. It is a lot more complicated than it looks, there is a lot of complication in the parts that don't move, complication that doesn't exist in an ICE car.

 

[SDramstad]

My father owned a car repair business for over 60 years, he replaced a lot of moving parts. Moving parts in cars have gotten a lot more reliable. I was sitting here wondering how the drivetrain in a car has 2000 parts, what constitutes the drivetrain and what constitutes a part. A pushrod V8 engine has 18 parts per cylinder times 8 cylinders, that's 144 parts. Add the crankshaft and camshaft and that's 146. Do we count a connecting rod as 1 part or 8? If we're going to do that then we have to count the individual plates making up the electric motor and each piece of wire in the winding.
There is a youtube channel that has very carefully and thoroughly dissected a Tesla. It is a lot more complicated than it looks, there is a lot of complication in the parts that don't move, complication that doesn't exist in an ICE car.

I think they are including the transmission and differential as part of the drive train.

 

[kuririn]

there is a lot of complication in the parts that don't move, complication that doesn't exist in an ICE car.

An EV doesn't have spark plugs.
Or cylinders, pistons, rings, lifters, cams. valves, rods.
No fuel pump or fuel filter.
No fuel injectors.
No catalytic convertor.
No complicated emissions control plumbing and sensors.
No radiator or water pump.
No power steering pump.
I think it would be fair to say that an ICE is far more complicated mechanically than an EV.

what constitutes the drivetrain and what constitutes a part.

I think they are including the transmission and differential as part of the drive train.

Yes. by definition the drivetrain includes the differential and transmission.
Everything from the point of power generation (motor) to the application of torque (wheels).
And no, the 2000 parts does not include each individual screw, nut and bolt.
Have you ever taken a look inside an automatic transmission?
Hundreds of parts in that unit alone.

 

[darrenf]

An EV doesn't have spark plugs.
Or cylinders, pistons, rings, lifters, cams. valves, rods.
No fuel pump or fuel filter.
No fuel injectors.
No catalytic convertor.
No complicated emissions control plumbing and sensors.
No radiator or water pump.
No power steering pump.
I think it would be fair to say that an ICE is far more complicated mechanically than an EV.


Yes. by definition the drivetrain includes the differential and transmission.
Everything from the point of power generation (motor) to the application of torque (wheels).
And no, the 2000 parts does not include each individual screw, nut and bolt.
Have you ever taken a look inside an automatic transmission?
Hundreds of parts in that unit alone.

Every EV I have owned has has a radiator and water pump except for our first, the Nissan Leaf. The Leaf was a horrible design because it had no active battery cooling (a radiator with pump) and as a result the battery started losing capacity almost as soon as it left the dealer lot.

 

[kuririn]

Every EV I have owned has has a radiator and water pump except for our first, the Nissan Leaf. The Leaf was a horrible design because it had no active battery cooling (a radiator with pump) and as a result the battery started losing capacity almost as soon as it left the dealer lot.

Yes, I stand corrected.

 

[boatgeek]

Going through the moving part count for an EV, I get something like:
Motor: 1-2 (I'm not counting brushes here)
Transmission: 6 (input shaft is common to the motor, so just the output shaft and some bearings)
Differential: 8? (3 gears, 3 bearings, and 2 output shafts? I'm not very clear on how many parts are here, so I could be corrected)
CV Joints: 4 (2 per side)
Wheel assembly: 6 (bearing, hub, and wheel on each side)
Cooling: 3 (2 pumps with motor and impeller in one piece plus one compressor in a heat pump loop)

So that's a total of around 30, depending on how wrong I am. I don't have a thermostat in there, but the cooling pumps could also run all the time. To get down to 20, I feel like you'd have to start neglecting bearings or call the CV joints part of the suspension system.

I would guess that a lot of the savings in moving part count is in the single speed transmission, but I could be wrong there. I'll also stand firm that the overall maintenance is far, far less on an EV.

Every EV I have owned has has a radiator and water pump except for our first, the Nissan Leaf. The Leaf was a horrible design because it had no active battery cooling (a radiator with pump) and as a result the battery started losing capacity almost as soon as it left the dealer lot.

Not discounting your experience, but I had the opposite--my Leaf has just ticked down to 90% battery capacity at 10 years old and 50K miles or so. Maybe it's our temperate climate?

 

[OverTheTop]

New Cadillac
https://www.drive.com.au/news/cadillac-celestiq-ev-higher-price-us/

 

[Cape Byron]

John Cadogan on EV fires. Language warning, as usual.



His followup to questions on the episode. Language warning, as usual.



Just putting it here as an important fact. I'm not anti-EV. I'm anti government greenwashing and putting people and the environment at risk.

YMMV, as usual.

 

[darrenf]

Not discounting your experience, but I had the opposite--my Leaf has just ticked down to 90% battery capacity at 10 years old and 50K miles or so. Maybe it's our temperate climate?

Climate is critical to longevity with the Leaf, that was the problem. If you had 4 true seasons, as we do, you're battery lost capacity quickly. It's pretty well known in the Leaf forums I used to frequent. Their second gen battery (code named "lizard") was supposed to alleviate that, but it didn't really, as it was still just passively cooled. We enjoyed the Leaf, it's what made us want Teslas, but it had major issues.

 

[dr wogz]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/electric-vehicle-trip-charging-infrastructure-1.6932074

 

[Funkworks]

John Cadogan on EV fires. Language warning, as usual.

Thanks for the warming.

I'm anti government greenwashing and putting people and the environment at risk.

I'm anti-greenwashing by anyone, and against putting people at risk, which is why I like and follow progress in batteries and EVs.


https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/




https://sacrilegemotors.com/

 

[Funkworks]

double post

 

[DEmery]

These scientists would beg to differ:
https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/renewable-energy-reliable

Almost every link in that 2015 article is 404 not found

 

[kuririn]

Almost every link in that 2015 article is 404 not found

OK.
Here's a summary of 11 studies on renewable energy.
https://energyinnovation.org/wp-con...ave-Lives-and-Create-Jobs-at-Minimal-Cost.pdfExcerpt:
"Reliability: All studies collectively suggest a 70 to 90 percent clean electricity system would be dependable (e.g., able to match supply and demand), including five studies that provide rigorous reliability checks of the grid under stressful weather and demand conditions."

And a Department of Energy paper released a couple of days ago:
https://www.energy.gov/policy/articles/clean-and-reliable-power

 

[DEmery]

OK.
Here's a summary of 11 studies on renewable energy.
https://energyinnovation.org/wp-con...ave-Lives-and-Create-Jobs-at-Minimal-Cost.pdfExcerpt:
"Reliability: All studies collectively suggest a 70 to 90 percent clean electricity system would be dependable (e.g., able to match supply and demand), including five studies that provide rigorous reliability checks of the grid under stressful weather and demand conditions."

And a Department of Energy paper released a couple of days ago:
https://www.energy.gov/policy/articles/clean-and-reliable-power

From the first meta analysis:
"On one hand, the literature would benefit from more robust analyses to further demonstrate the reliability of a grid supplied predominantly by renewable energy. Recent research from the National Renewable Energy Laboratory shows with higher fidelity the reliability of the electricity system with approximately 60 percent wind and solar energy, or roughly what is required to reach 80 percent clean electricity if existing nuclear and hydro generation is held constant.16 Federal funding to enhance scientific understanding of reliable grid operations with high renewable energy penetration—and to develop technologies such as grid-forming inverters—would complement an ambitious federal CES or CEPP." So technology we don't have yet.

This is the only line from the DoE report that address reliability - "Storage capacity expands rapidly, to more than 1,600 GW in 2050." We don't have a way to store all that yet.

I am all for renewable energy (my state has one of the highest percentages of energy from renewables - hydro), but a lot of these analyses ignore physics. I think we will get there eventually. The big issue that is rarely addressed is the base load.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8536784/"Solar and wind resources are dependent on geophysical constraints. Here the authors find that solar and wind power resources can satisfy countries’ electricity demand of between 72–91% of hours, but hundreds of hours of unmet demand may occur annually."

And if your main concern is climate change, nothing will happen from what we in the US do unless China gets onboard.

 

[jderimig]

This is the only line from the DoE report that address reliability - "Storage capacity expands rapidly, to more than 1,600 GW in 2050." We don't have a way to store all that yet.

Storage capacity required to decarbonize the grid in the US would need to be 233,000 GWh. California alone would require 25,000 GWh and that is the most solar friendly place on the continent. That assumes draining the batteries to 0 during solar and wind nulls. Which is never done, we do not drain our water reservoirs anywhere near 0 before we declare a water emergency.