I suck at knots

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neil_w

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I need to up my knot-tying game, which is right now at level 0 (and even that is generous). I have gotten a whole lot of mileage out of plain old square knots, which can work (for LPR rocketry, at least) in a pretty wide variety of circumstances. Recently, though, I was somewhat dumbfounded when trying to assemble a Newway parachute, and the shroud lines (some type of thread) absolutely would not hold a square knot. So I resorted to my next option, which is... oh wait, I don't actually have a next option.

And so: I need some suggestions as to which basic knots I should know for basic LPR flying, and what's the best way for someone who is knot-clueless to learn them. I don't need to go full merit badge here, but I need some basic competence.

All ideas welcome.
 
It also depends on the material you are tieing. Some materials take knots better than others. I was using the bowline in small kevlar but they wouldn't stay tight so I need to switch to another knot. There are a lot of them.
 
Alpine butterflies (already mentioned) for loops in the middle of recovery cord are excellent.
I usually use double figure 8's on the ends. A little harder to untie than bowlines but not bad.

Recently, I also got into albright knots for clean parachute ends which go to a single cord. This thread is great: https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/gonna-teach-myself-how-to-tie-an-albright-knot.179467/

With a couple good knots you can ditch any sort of quick links altogether...!

EDIT: Now you've got me goin'... I also use bowlines (on one end) and midshipmans all the time at rocket launches for holding down sun shades and tower/pad guylines.
 
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I usually use double figure 8's on the ends. A little harder to untie than bowlines but not bad.

That's another one I need to refamiliarize myself with. I understand it has tested to suffer the least loss of strength of any knot vs. the full strength of the line it's tied in.

I've also gotten some loop thimbles and fids in various sizes to try the loop splice method.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/estes-pro-series-patriot-2066-clone-build.166655/#post-2151575
 
Thank you for all the suggestions.

I remain a bit confused, however. so many of these knots are touted for their ability to be untied. In many (most?) cases I don't *want* to untie them. I want them to stay tied forever, e.g. shroud lines tied to a plastic parachute. Also, the knots are commonly shown being tied into some sort of heavy rope... unclear how well that translates to, for instance, carpet thread. Even my stupid square notes are sometimes difficult at very small sizes.
 
I remain a bit confused, however. so many of these knots are touted for their ability to be untied. In many (most?) cases I don't *want* to untie them. I want them to stay tied forever, e.g. shroud lines tied to a plastic parachute. Also, the knots are commonly shown being tied into some sort of heavy rope... unclear how well that translates to, for instance, carpet thread. Even my stupid square notes are sometimes difficult at very small sizes.

Check out the albright knot for your shroud line usecase. It stays tied together forever and I think is what you're looking for. EDIT: Ahh I see what you're saying now. End that ties to the shock cord stays tied forever. For the end that ties directly to the parachute I'd probably either call it good with a couple overhands or whatever is easiest to tie.

W/r/t wanting to untie them, have you ever wanted to move a parachute location/shorten a recovery harness etc after a flight and wished you could untie the knot? That's part of it for me. The other part is that I untie every flight (at least the ends) because I don't like quicklinks. Having said that, all the suggestions here will pretty much stay where they are regardless (maybe with exception of a bowline without any backing knot). They're just easier to untie if you want to.

Size - I regularly tie alpine butterflies, bowlines and albrights down to something like 80lb kevlar which I use in all my 24mm and some 29mm rockets. They're all still pretty easy to tie and untie at that size.
 
I'm actually referring to the tying of the shroud lines to the parachute. Looking at animatedknots.com (great but everything is discussed in terms of fishing, and I often have no idea what they're talking about) it seems like the non-slip mono knot could be good, although I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about it before. Of course, tying thread to plastic chutes is probably not the most common issue folks have around here. It is just one particular area that is vexing me at the moment.
 
Yes, sorry, edited my post above to reflect that. If the square knots aren't holding I'd probably just do a double figure 8. I hadn't heard of non-slip mono knots before but that looks like it'd work fine as well.
 
Was there a small piece of paper in the chute kit with a pic that shows the knot that Rick recommends and how to tie it?
Don't recall the name specifically.
If you don't have one then I can go looking for it.
 
Was there a small piece of paper in the chute kit with a pic that shows the knot that Rick recommends and how to tie it?
Don't recall the name specifically.
If you don't have one then I can go looking for it.
Yes there “was”, if you catch my meaning.

I’m not sure if it named the knot, though I suppose I could match it up with the pictures elsewhere to identify it.
 
I need to up my knot-tying game, which is right now at level 0 (and even that is generous). I have gotten a whole lot of mileage out of plain old square knots, which can work (for LPR rocketry, at least) in a pretty wide variety of circumstances. Recently, though, I was somewhat dumbfounded when trying to assemble a Newway parachute, and the shroud lines (some type of thread) absolutely would not hold a square knot. So I resorted to my next option, which is... oh wait, I don't actually have a next option.

And so: I need some suggestions as to which basic knots I should know for basic LPR flying, and what's the best way for someone who is knot-clueless to learn them. I don't need to go full merit badge here, but I need some basic competence.

All ideas welcome.
https://www.softouch.on.ca/kb/data/Everything%20Knots%20Book%20(The).pdf
 
I learned a bunch of hitches and lashings for Scout, Tenderfoot, and First Class rank requirements with the Boy Scouts. There was nothing to do about it except practice, practice, practice until I couldn’t practice anymore, and then I’d practice some more anyway.

After all these years I’ve occasionally put some of them to use on various projects at home, at school, in hobby or craft projects, and even a few occasions at work. Most of them I know confidently, a few I can tie after glancing at a drawing. At one point I could even tie a bowline with one hand.

Square knots I’ve learned are not particularly useful or safe. Sheet bends are stronger, more structurally sound (especially with slick lines or ropes of different diameter) and just as quick to tie once you own them.

Others in my handbook included two half hitches, the taught line hitch, the timber hitch, and the clove hitch, the latter two being useful for various lashings. I can’t even guess how many times I made square, diagonal, round, shear, tripod, and floor lashings out of the various broom and mop handles at home. I also “whipped” threads around ropes to keep them from unraveling. It was tricky at first so I started by whipping a thin cord around my hiking stick, just so I didn’t have to fight my own motor coordination at the same time I was learning the technique.

There were a few other sources I learned from too. I learned a figure-8 and a doubled figure-8 for climbing, very visually impressive. My mom showed me one that’s commonly used to tie horses to a rail for grooming; it’s secure if the horse tries to walk away, but you can disengage it just by grabbing the free end and yanking it. Good for any situation where the horse might panic, you don’t want them breaking their little necks. I also learned a monkey fist and a hangman’s noose from another Scout who had a tendency towards dark humor (but is now very successful and respectable). I even learned a simpler way to tie my shoes from the Boys’ Life magazine.

Then there were all the craft projects to weave and braid lanyards and paracord bracelets in camp. Gotta do something in down time, and this was before I got a smartphone! I never even owned a GameBoy.

Once you learn a few, you can start to see how the line does its work and how to better visualize the tying (and untying!) process. It’s a bit like how learning a third language can be easier than learning your second if they’re closely related.
 
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Looking at animatedknots.com (great but everything is discussed in terms of fishing, and I often have no idea what they're talking about) it seems like the non-slip mono knot could be good, although I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about it before. Of course, tying thread to plastic chutes is probably not the most common issue folks have around here.

Well, most knots were invented for marine, fishing, and outdoor activities over hundreds of years. Don't take it so literally, though. Just find one that looks like what you want. The non-slip mono knot seems appropriate for your application.

This rocket application wasn't discussed in animatedknots.com either, but I found something that works. ;)

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/attach-harness-to-forward-closure-why-knot.159622/post-2002860
 
Well, most knots were invented for marine, fishing, and outdoor activities over hundreds of years. Don't take it so literally, though. Just find one that looks like what you want. The non-slip mono knot seems appropriate for your application.

This rocket application wasn't discussed in animatedknots.com either, but I found something that works. ;)

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/attach-harness-to-forward-closure-why-knot.159622/post-2002860
Tying Kevlar around a motor mount is my other vexing problem, although I've been able to muddle through so far by encasing the kevlar (the part that wraps around the motor mount) in a TBII fillet. Remember I'm talking LPR here.

I'll take a look at that constrictor knot.
 
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