Hydrogen as fuel

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madcow rocketry
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If someone is building a shed or a piece of art work in their backyard, you don't see others screaming "It's a pipe dream! It's nonsense! You'll never make it! You should build a treehouse instead! It's ugly! You're wasting your time and money!"

And if someone is making green H2, it is just as childish to rain on their parade. You don't see this in other TRF threads because it's not something people do.

People try out new techs the same way people play roulette and land claims. The only way to know what works is to try it out until ideas are exhausted.

Summit coming up;

https://greenhydrogen.solarenergyevents.com/
 
Funkworks said:
If someone is building a shed or a piece of art work in their backyard, you don't see others screaming "It's a pipe dream! It's nonsense! You'll never make it! You should build a treehouse instead! It's ugly! You're wasting your time and money!"

And if someone is making green H2, it is just as childish to rain on their parade. You don't see this in other TRF threads because it's not something people do.

People try out new techs the same way people play roulette and land claims. The only way to know what works is to try it out until ideas are exhausted.

Summit coming up;

https://greenhydrogen.solarenergyevents.com/
Click to expand...
Yeah, it’s kind of unfortunate that some people invest so much time and effort into crapping in other people’s oatmeal.
 
Funkworks said:
If someone is building a shed or a piece of art work in their backyard, you don't see others screaming "It's a pipe dream! It's nonsense! You'll never make it! You should build a treehouse instead! It's ugly! You're wasting your time and money!"

And if someone is making green H2, it is just as childish to rain on their parade. You don't see this in other TRF threads because it's not something people do.

People try out new techs the same way people play roulette and land claims. The only way to know what works is to try it out until ideas are exhausted.

Summit coming up;

https://greenhydrogen.solarenergyevents.com/
Click to expand...
The neighbor building his shed or artwork is not relying on government subsidies/ tax credits. So called “green hydrogen” and most other “green” energies do. When money is taken from taxpayers to fund these new techs, then taxpayers have every right to rain on the parade. If the money is being squandered then the right becomes an obligation.
 
Tyeeking said:
The neighbor building his shed or artwork is not relying on government subsidies/ tax credits. So called “green hydrogen” and most other “green” energies do. When money is taken from taxpayers to fund these new techs, then taxpayers have every right to rain on the parade. If the money is being squandered then the right becomes an obligation.
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Tax credits are not specific to green hydrogen ("green" here conventionally means "generated by renewable energy").

If you want to discuss tax credits, and why they are given whom, we can do so in literally any other thread of TRF because they support businesses, organizations and individuals of all kinds, and that would be politics. You will not find tax complaints in any of the the JWST, Space X, Apollo, Honest John and glue or paint threads, and I fully expect the same in here.

A discussion about fuel cells, ways to feed them, and uses is actually something that's possible.
 
Imagine your corner service station storing their gasoline in tanks at 5000 psi......
Funkworks said:
Tax credits are not specific to green hydrogen ("green" here conventionally means "generated by renewable energy").

If you want to discuss tax credits, and why they are given whom, we can do so in literally any other thread of TRF because they support businesses, organizations and individuals of all kinds, and that would be politics. You will not find tax complaints in any of the the JWST, Space X, Apollo, Honest John and glue or paint threads, and I fully expect the same in here.

A discussion about fuel cells, ways to feed them, and uses is actually something that's possible.
Click to expand...
The IRA gives generators of green H2 $3/kg. With no limit.
 
Why? What's the point of a H2 car? EVs have everything I'll ever need in a car. I have 0 reasons to look at H2 cars. There is no contest here IMO. I can clarify in the EV thread.

Long range aircrafts however, well that's still in the air (HA! AIR! Get it? HA! 🤣 ... 😒)

Here's a company that's even hiring:

https://www.h2fly.de/
Maybe I should have made more specific topics for this thread because some seem to imagine I'm pushing H2 as a silver bullet for everything everywhere as if there was no tomorrow.
:questions:
There's some kind of miscommunication somewhere, that's for sure.
 
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Funkworks said:
Tax credits are not specific to green hydrogen ("green" here conventionally means "generated by renewable energy").

If you want to discuss tax credits, and why they are given whom, we can do so in literally any other thread of TRF because they support businesses, organizations and individuals of all kinds, and that would be politics. You will not find tax complaints in any of the the JWST, Space X, Apollo, Honest John and glue or paint threads, and I fully expect the same in here.

A discussion about fuel cells, ways to feed them, and uses is actually something that's possible.
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Incorrect. The Inflation Reduction Act provides a 10-year “clean” hydrogen production tax credit of up to $3/kilogram. In addition “clean” hydrogen can receive an investment tax credit of up to 30% based on “carbon intensity” (how “green” it is).

We realize that you are uncomfortable with subsidy discussions but you’re the one who chooses to post about technologies that receive specific subsidies. Many of the enterprises that you link to don’t exist without the subsidies so like it or not they are part of the conversation.

I enjoy your posts and the technologies that you reference. Some of the technologies will have legs and some will not. By and large I personally hate subsidies of almost all stripes.
 
Tyeeking said:
By and large I personally hate subsidies of almost all stripes.
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Naturally then you’ll lobby your legislators to get rid of mortgage tax exemptions, 401(k) deductions, and the child tax credit. Or do you just hate subsidies that you don’t personally get cash from?

If you were truly ideologically consistent, you just wouldn’t claim any of those deductions on April 15. You know, because you hate subsidies that encourage particular sets of social behavior. I’ll be over here holding my breath waiting for that to happen.
 
boatgeek said:
Naturally then you’ll lobby your legislators to get rid of mortgage tax exemptions, 401(k) deductions, and the child tax credit. Or do you just hate subsidies that you don’t personally get cash from?

If you were truly ideologically consistent, you just wouldn’t claim any of those deductions on April 15. You know, because you hate subsidies that encourage particular sets of social behavior. I’ll be over here holding my breath waiting for that to happen.
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I don’t claim any of those deductions/credits. If I had a mortgage or children or contributions to a 401(k) I no doubt I would take them since they are currently legal. That doesn’t mean I support them.

Heck I don’t even blame people who do since they are legal. I don’t blame people for taking the tax credit for an EV since it too is legal. Heck I don’t even hold it against a “green” hydrogen company taking their new tax credit since it is now legal. That doesn’t mean that I support the subsidies.

I know lots of folks that support higher taxes for a variety of social programs but don’t single themselves out to voluntarily pay those higher rates. Nor would I expect them to even though they advocate for them.

One would be foolish to not take financial advantage of something that is legal even if they don’t support it. You’ve made it known that you dislike fossil fuels that receive subsidies but I bet you still enjoy purchases and activities that use them.
 
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kuririn said:
My apologies. I promise to try and not take the bait from now on.
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I'll apologize, too. I didn't think posting duh could be misinterpreted, but I see how it was. What I meant was "here is a forehead slapping obvious revelation". That's why I'm bald on top and in front, so many revelations...
 
Hydrogen is even less available in my area than an electric charger. We are years away from this being a reliable energy source nationwide. It is also rare in elemental form and requires a high energy input to create.
 
cls said:
Hydrogen leaks can not be detected by smell, and hydrogen flame isn't visible to human eyes.
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I'm not a chemist so I can only conjecture- some natural gas doesn't have much smell either so they add another gas to it to give it a smell. Similarly I wonder if another gas could be mixed in to cause the flame to look different. This doesn't reduce the dangers very much but it helps some.
 
Tyeeking said:
I don’t claim any of those deductions/credits. If I had a mortgage or children or contributions to a 401(k) I no doubt I would take them since they are currently legal. That doesn’t mean I support them.
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Wild. So that means you're either under 25 or over 60 on an odd pension program.
Tyeeking said:
Heck I don’t even blame people who do since they are legal. I don’t blame people for taking the tax credit for an EV since it too is legal. Heck I don’t even hold it against a “green” hydrogen company taking their new tax credit since it is now legal. That doesn’t mean that I support the subsidies.
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Weird. So the fact that I've never seen you on "what I did instead of rocketry" complaining about your increased tax burden when someone buys a house or has a child is just a coincidence? Seems like you make a habit out of singling out renewable fuels rather than tax subsidies as a whole. What, I ask, can it all mean?
Tyeeking said:
I know lots of folks that support higher taxes for a variety of social programs but don’t single themselves out to voluntarily pay those higher rates. Nor would I expect them to even though they advocate for them.

One would be foolish to not take financial advantage of something that is legal even if they don’t support it. You’ve made it known that you dislike fossil fuels that receive subsidies
Click to expand...
Ooooohh, now I get it! you just don't like renewables! So you wouldn't crap in the oatmeal of someone who just had a baby, but you think that crapping in the oatmeal of this thread will change public policy, or maybe even change minds, or ... something. Because everyone knows that random threads in the TRF Watering Hole are where public policy is made! 🤣
Tyeeking said:
but I bet you still enjoy purchases and activities that use them.
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I see fossil fuels as a necessary evil at the moment. I depend on them for some aspects of my lifestyle, though I am working to make that a smaller and smaller part of the whole. My clients almost universally depend on fossil fuels. I also think that it's important to make fossil fuels an unnecessary evil, much in the same way that leaded gasoline went from a necessary evil to an unnecessary one. And, yes, I do walk the walk and spend my own money on that project. There are many examples on TRF if you care to take a look.
 
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boatgeek said:
Wild. So that means you're either under 25 or over 60 on an odd pension program.

Weird. So the fact that I've never seen you on "what I did instead of rocketry" complaining about your increased tax burden when someone buys a house or has a child is just a coincidence? Seems like you make a habit out of singling out renewable fuels rather than tax subsidies as a whole. What, I ask, can it all mean?

Ooooohh, now I get it! you just don't like renewables! So you wouldn't crap in the oatmeal of someone who just had a baby, but you think that crapping in the oatmeal of this thread will change public policy, or maybe even change minds, or ... something. Because everyone knows that random threads in the TRF Watering Hole are where public policy is made! 🤣

I see fossil fuels as a necessary evil at the moment. I depend on them for some aspects of my lifestyle, though I am working to make that a smaller and smaller part of the whole. My clients almost universally depend on fossil fuels. I also think that it's important to make fossil fuels an unnecessary evil, much in the same way that leaded gasoline went from a necessary evil to an unnecessary one. And, yes, I do walk the walk and spend my own money on that project. There are many examples on TRF if you care to take a look.
Click to expand...
I’ve stated many times here at TRF that with rare exception I don’t like subsidies. I don’t like the political class picking winners and losers. The threads here are about renewables not mortgage deductions. Start a thread on the mortgage deduction or the child tax credit and I’ll be happy to comment.

Not sure why you feel a need to make this personal. We can discuss policy around various subsidies and policies without making it personal.
 
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Tyeeking said:
I’ve stated many times here at TRF that with rare exception I don’t like subsidies. I don’t like the political class picking winners and losers. The threads here are about renewables not mortgage deductions. Start a thread on the mortgage deduction or the child tax credit and I’ll be happy to comment.

Not sure why you feel a need to make this personal. We can discuss policy around various subsidies and policies without making it personal.
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If you want to talk policies and subsidies, start your own thread. The OP has repeatedly asked people to talk about technologies. Subsidies are no more relevant to emerging than the details of NASA contracts are to the origins of SpaceX.
 
Hydrogen as a fuel source is cost competitive today but not fully green, green hydrogen will be competitive in the next 10 years. (lots of reports about this). The thing to think about this is the economies of scale, these are the same that make fuel from oil so inexpensive. You cant realistically look at a home solar system making hydrogen and compare that to a high temp industrial electrolyzer making 100 million kgs of hydrogen per year. This is when the cost becomes very competitive. Use baseline energy for producing clean hydrogen, use wind and solar for battery charging with a smart grid (electric cars should be charged during the day when solar is plentiful and electricity prices are low not at night...) and industrial processing. Hydrogen can be switched into existing natural gas power plants either fully or partially. Hydrogen can be used today for production of concrete for example.


Where subsidies come in is the infrastructure. The current natural gas, oil pipelines and refineries have been subsidized for years. Clean energy needs incentives to offset the infrastructure needed for large scale projects. This isn’t just for pipelines and electrolizers but for upgrades to the electrical grid to handle the spikes and distributed influx of power. the technologies to make that happen are around today including high temperature electrolizers, hydrogen pipeline systems, hydrogen fueled gas turbine generators, smart grid.
 
boatgeek said:
If you want to talk policies and subsidies, start your own thread. The OP has repeatedly asked people to talk about technologies. Subsidies are no more relevant to emerging than the details of NASA contracts are to the origins of SpaceX.
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I, and others disagree. If a new technology requires taxpayer money to be financially viable then subsidies are very much a part of the how and why a technology emerges.
 
Tyeeking said:
I, and others disagree. If a new technology requires taxpayer money to be financially viable then subsidies are very much a part of the how and why a technology emerges.
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FYI just about everything rocket and space related has been funded with taxpayer money, through loans, credits, grants, salaries, and outright purchases. But these allocations are politics, and it is a TRF policy not to discuss poltitics.

This thread is for discussing another set of technologies: hydrogen production and uses. What I'm interested in is this: to identify applications where using hydrogen has benefits over alternatives.

https://www.world-energy.org/article/14732.html
 
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Funkworks said:
It is a TRF policy not to discuss poltitics. This thread is for discussing the technology.
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Then stick to the technology and not how it makes or will make “financial sense”. It’s dishonest to suggest emerging technologies do/will make sense but then maintain that the very subsidies that help make them make sense cannot he discussed.
 
"Harvested fuel has numerous military advantages. Strategically, it reduces reliance on fuel imports and reduces the risks of supply chain disruptions. Harvesting hydrogen reduces the operational burden of transporting fuel and, tactically, reduces the visible logistics tail of friendly units. Hydrogen fuel cells are acoustically silent and have a low thermal signature. They also improves vehicle endurance, up to ten times greater than that of similar vehicles using batteries."
...
"The Office of Naval Research is developing the Refueling and Support Package to Enable Communications and Situational Awareness (RASP-CASA) to generate hydrogen and oxygen in a shipping container."
...
"Suffice it to say, using hydrogen as fuel is possible, and hydrogen can be harvested. The Navy has even patented technology to harvest hydrogen from seawater, and harvesting from ambient air also is possible.However, harvesting systems will need to be designed and built to scale."
...
"Consider Marines at an expeditionary advanced base. The equipment to produce, store, and use hydrogen fuel ashore is embarked on the ship in a Conex box. The equipment is offloaded during a traditional ship-to-shore movement. Marines who have been trained to handle hydrogen safely deploy and operate an electrolytic-cation exchange module, based on one developed by the NRL. Using renewable sources of power such as solar or wind generators, this device produces hydrogen and carbon dioxide from ambient air or seawater. This allows the Navy to reduce the logistics tail on fuel delivery to remote locations as well as increase energy security and independence. The hydrogen is used to fuel unmanned vehicles and other equipment. Once a microgrid is set up, the system of systems stores excess energy for use during intermittent generation. Potable water is a useful byproduct."

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2023/january/harvest-hydrogen-distributed-logistics
 
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Tyeeking said:
Then stick to the technology and not how it makes or will make “financial sense”. It’s dishonest to suggest emerging technologies do/will make sense but then maintain that the very subsidies that help make them make sense cannot he discussed.
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What's mind-boggling about this comment is that Funkworks (and pretty much every other person posting about technology) made no claims whatsoever about financial viability of hydrogen powered vehicles. They literally did exactly as you asked and stuck to the technology. And you went and brought up subsidies anyway. What can it all mean?
 

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