Holy Mach Diamonds, BatMan!

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Fore Check

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WOW!

Take a look at the pics of a rocket flown at the Tripoli Quad Cities club launch last Sunday on EX day. I don't know the details of the motor, other than it is a *big* home-brewed green in an equally *big* rocket.

EDIT: I just found elsewhere that the motor is an N-3500! :burnout:

Rather than cross post the pics directly, just check out this link direct to the TQC message board and the pics:


https://p209.ezboard.com/Carnage--Green-Motor-Flame/ftqcfrm21.showMessage?topicID=101.topic

:surprised:
 
From whats they toldsded me in da school place, mach diamonds = loss in performance. On the other hand, looking at that picture, mach diamonds = super cool looking flamage! ;)
 
From whats they toldsded me in da school place, mach diamonds = loss in performance. On the other hand, looking at that picture, mach diamonds = super cool looking flamage! ;)

Not much of one though :)

That is an AWESOME flame :D
 
Mach diamonds look cool. They are, however, propagated shock waves from either overexpanded or underexpanded flow in the De Laval nozzle. Because of this, they represent flow losses as the flow is less than pseudo-isentropic.

Shock wave = energy loss.

In the green motor in first link the flame looks underexpanded. This is the typical operation of most commercial motors as it takes a quite larger nozzle exit to get the extra 3% ISP from the motor. For those interested, there are several books on the topic of Rocket Plume Phenomenology.
 
that helps explain why we went from this flame
IMG_6523.jpg

to this flame
red2Large.jpg

increased performance..


no actually its still just our test motors..
the green in the original post is very cool. it looks kind of yellow (may be just the camera) but I really like it.
 
You're worried about losing performance by having mach diamonds in a knob motor?????????????????????????????????????
:surprised:
 
Dude, Green motors are only Knob on the outside at least according to AMW's website, the green gets awesome performance. Though besides the skidmark most would probably consider green the most knob propellant, it has performance to boot. Green is KnobPro, high performing and cool looking.



I think the difference in those green flames is a result of the camera, if you check out vernk.net the pictures he has of AMW flames look completely different than most.
 
I think the difference in those green flames is a result of the camera, if you check out vernk.net the pictures he has of AMW flames look completely different than most.

You are correct. The first photo is underexposed, which brings out more flame detail (because the flame is a light source, which overexposes the film, and washes out the color).
 
You are correct. The first photo is underexposed, which brings out more flame detail (because the flame is a light source, which overexposes the film, and washes out the color).

You see the same thing with red flames alot, too.

Man, I like the green! Cool color with kickin' performance too! What more could you ask for? (besides 38mm, that is...:D)
 
Dude, Green motors are only Knob on the outside at least according to AMW's website, the green gets awesome performance. Though besides the skidmark most would probably consider green the most knob propellant, it has performance to boot. Green is KnobPro, high performing and cool looking.


OK What is a Knob or KnobPro motor?
 
The term Knob may still fit, but with our green test motors, the 38mm 6 grain comes out to about a J560.. that compared to the same load in white J350 or the same in Redline J420....

I have a 3" duel deploy rocket I fly on that case all the time, I get around 4200 feet (give or take depending on the motor and conditions) with the Aerotech green I got 4600 feet... In the redstone, An M2400 I got 4800 feet, on that green I got 5100 feet..

now that could have some to do with flying conditions etc, but personally I think the new greens will perform rather well.

enjoy
 
Around this same time, I was banned from a certain rocket forum for using the term "knob."

I wonder which forum this was ;). It was in the article posted by Fred.
 
The term Knob may still fit, but with our green test motors, the 38mm 6 grain comes out to about a J560.. that compared to the same load in white J350 or the same in Redline J420....

I have a 3" duel deploy rocket I fly on that case all the time, I get around 4200 feet (give or take depending on the motor and conditions) with the Aerotech green I got 4600 feet... In the redstone, An M2400 I got 4800 feet, on that green I got 5100 feet..

now that could have some to do with flying conditions etc, but personally I think the new greens will perform rather well.

enjoy
Not bad...

Do you know any specific Isp numbers? The blue isn't bad (~200-205), though obviously W9 is still the king (@ 230+)
 
Not bad...

Do you know any specific Isp numbers? The blue isn't bad (~200-205), though obviously W9 is still the king (@ 230+)

nothing for sure yet were still in the R&D stage... things change alot till we get them exactly were we want them...

I will tell you this... they are getting closer by the second, and the hard parts are done...
 
nothing for sure yet were still in the R&D stage... things change alot till we get them exactly were we want them...

I will tell you this... they are getting closer by the second, and the hard parts are done...

Just my understanding from what someone had mentioned to me is that the AT green "so far or at least in early development" had the highest performance numbers in ISP then any of the other motors made even blue.


'
 
<snip>
I think the difference in those green flames is a result of the camera, if you check out vernk.net the pictures he has of AMW flames look completely different than most.

The flames off of Metalwizard's Redstone are accurate in the picture he posted. I checked the pic's I took (shooting RAW).

The Aerotech Mojave Green© motors are going to be a fun line. I hope to see some hobby loads so I can launch them at the local LPR launch site.

Ken
 
Metalwizard - do you have any idea what sizes the greens will be available in? Us lowly L1 guys would really appreciate some 38mm...Thanks!
 
The flames off of Metalwizard's Redstone are accurate in the picture he posted. I checked the pic's I took (shooting RAW).

The Aerotech Mojave Green© motors are going to be a fun line. I hope to see some hobby loads so I can launch them at the local LPR launch site.

Ken

That's "local LPR/MPR launch site"

:D
:p
 
I guess I'm a knob 'cause I like pretty colors, especially coming out the bottom of my rocket. :D
 
Just my understanding from what someone had mentioned to me is that the AT green "so far or at least in early development" had the highest performance numbers in ISP then any of the other motors made even blue.

'

I'm sure the whole thought process was to make a performance motor and green was the first logical step. I would say knob first, performance 2nd. but just a guess
(EDIT)
 
OK What is a Knob or KnobPro motor?

A Knob motor is one that looks cool and that's about it. Beyond its attractive flame the motor doesn't perform well or really do anything worthwhile. Examples in order of Knoblousness, determined by me, if you disagree with this list I dont care ;) KnobPro is a word I just made up. Its formal definition is: A motor which on the surface apears to be knob, however, on further investigation actually has redeemable performance qualities.

The list:

1. Skidmark:
Lots of sparks, worst impulse ever. These motors are sometimes mistaken for fireworks because that's what they are, and they share identical ISPs with they twin brother: the fountain. People drool over these motors despite the fact that they do nothing except spit unburned chunks of metal out the butt end, make noise, and probably their most well known attribute: setting fields on fire. Their impulse is awful due to a really bad O:F ratio and the fact that solid is leaving the motor unburned. If you can't get enough of these motors, you are obviously a knob (EDIT), even flying one makes you a knob, we all have a little in us.

2. Smokey:
Skidmark without the sparks, only marginally better impulse, at least you arent spitting out burning hunks of propellant out the butt end, but at the same time your O:F ratio is still Awful. While these wont set the field on fire they will make everything filthy and flying a rocket on a rail after one of these motors is often a terrible experience.

3. Sparky Bumper Grain
This category encompasses a wide variety of motors that all have one thing in common: sparks. Many may not know what this is as it is done generally by EX'ers, specifically Todd Harrison of Infinity Propulsion. Adding a sparky grain gains you automatic knob points no matter what motor you are flying. In this practice a sparky grain is added to the bottom of a motor to give that sparky effect. How do you make your purple motor more knob? Throw some sparks in there! While visually stimulating and completely unnecessary, these motors are only less knob that the above due to an assumed respectable ISP. Of course while you were tossing Titanium in a red grain you probably spilled some of your beer in there too, so maybe the ISP wasnt that good.


4. Red:
This was a toss up between red and green, but using AMW's site as a reference I needed to put red first because green has a way better ISP. Due to huge amounts of Sr these motors have mediocre impulse and a cool flame. Check and check, both knob attributes. While a red flame isnt as knob as green, the impulse is worse so green has the one up on this one. Red does have some redeemable qualities, mainly that it has a small exponent so the propellant can be used in hairy motors that other propellants would blow up in.


4a Fuscia
This is a tie with red. Why you ask? Well I thought at first it would be less knob than red because its faster, and therefore more bada$$. Then I realized that.....THE FLAME IS PINK. Pink flame are you serious? Not only are you a knob, you are a fairy, but hey, at least you through some copper in your red motor to make it a little faster.

Yes I have flown a Fuscia motor before.

Yes it was an M even.

Purple
I have not yet seen a good purple motor so I am just throwing this in here so everyone knows I didnt forget it. It would probably go somewhere before red. Its definitely knob.

5 White
White is definitely knob, mainly because people fly it just because it looks like SRBs. The difference? Large amounts of zinc and mag just make it look like that and in the end the impulse is bad. If it had lots of Alumium like a real SRB maybe its impulse wouldn't be god awful. I have seen people fly more white motors than anything else just because they look cool. Note, again using AMW's website as a reference, you will see that White has a worse impulse than red, but due to the fact that it doesnt have a wonkey colored flame I decided to put it this far on the list. I guess the fact that it looks real makes it less knob.

KnobPro:

Green
Green gets good impulse. Not only that its fast. Not only that it has applications in the military, yes I have seen rocket motors with green flames in commercial applications. The only knob factor of green is that it has a green flame. This is weird, unnatural almost. So you want to mix a green motor but don't want to be a tool? Its okay, the fact that you are playing with Barium, a highly toxic and potentially deadly chemical makes up for the fact that your motor has a green flame. So, the knobnicity is outweighted by the badass toxic chemicals, and also outweighed by the fact that making a good green motor is simply not easy. The chemicals must be in the perfect ratio and must be prepared correctly in order for the flame to be green. So green motors are peforming, legitamate, toxic, and take mad skilz. The only reason knob is associated with green is because people have alwways associated the two.

LAME Propellant

Aluminum
Boring flame, pretty good performance, and the smoke and flame are almost indistinguishable. 6&#37; (or other close variations) are the lamest motors people can possibly fly. The somewhat better performance does not outweigh the fact that these motors are about as exciting as a retirement home. These are blue motors made by people that dont have the cajones to add CuO.

Cool Propellant:

Fast
These propellants have cool flames AND people that use them have huge cajones. Often times these motors will tear rockets apart which is extra awesome. Not only are these motors hard to make they don't have the uneeded extras of other (knob) motors. Cranking motors are cool. The faster the better. (Kosdon motors are an example, and Supertiger is a mediocre fast motor.)
Warp-9 is the least knob of fast motors, as it burns so fast the visual aspect is almost completely eliminate, and often rockets will dissapear (into the sky or into a million pieces.) Its saying something when your motor burns so fast your altimeter can't even arm itself. Give yourself points if you've crashed a rocket because the burntime was so fast your altimeter didn't even know the rocket left the pad.

Awesome propellant

Blue
Blue is the greatest propellant type of all. It is a gift from the Gods and its incredibility can not be described. Blue is high performing and has an awesome flame. Blue can be fast or slow, smokey or smokeless. I have seen blue motors with higher ISP than any other propellant (in the EX community) and have seen more rockets shred at the hands of blue propellant than any other type. While it is hard to incorporate into some cases, in others it is easy. A good blue motor will automatically make your rocket look 100% better than it did before. The flame color is awesome and that speaks to the knob in me, while the performance is there for the practicality. Blue is amazing.
 
A Knob motor is one that looks cool and that's about it. Beyond its attractive flame the motor doesn't perform well or really do anything worthwhile. Examples in order of Knoblousness, determined by me, if you disagree with this list I dont care ;) KnobPro is a word I just made up. Its formal definition is: A motor which on the surface apears to be knob, however, on further investigation actually has redeemable performance qualities.

The list:

1. Skidmark:
Lots of sparks, worst impulse ever. These motors are sometimes mistaken for fireworks because that's what they are, and they share identical ISPs with they twin brother: the fountain. People drool over these motors despite the fact that they do nothing except spit unburned chunks of metal out the butt end, make noise, and probably their most well known attribute: setting fields on fire. Their impulse is awful due to a really bad O:F ratio and the fact that solid is leaving the motor unburned. If you can't get enough of these motors, you are obviously a knob (and a tool, but that's okay), even flying one makes you a knob, we all have a little in us.

2. Smokey:
Skidmark without the sparks, only marginally better impulse, at least you arent spitting out burning hunks of propellant out the butt end, but at the same time your O:F ratio is still Awful. While these wont set the field on fire they will make everything filthy and flying a rocket on a rail after one of these motors is often a terrible experience.


3. Red:
This was a toss up between red and green, but using AMW's site as a reference I needed to put red first because green has a way better ISP. Due to huge amounts of Sr these motors have mediocre impulse and a cool flame. Check and check, both knob attributes. While a red flame isnt as knob as green, the impulse is worse so green has the one up on this one. Red does have some redeemable qualities, mainly that it has a small exponent so the propellant can be used in hairy motors that other propellants would blow up in.

3a Fuscia
This is a tie with red. Why you ask? Well I thought at first it would be less knob than red because its faster, and therefore more bada$$. Then I realized that.....THE FLAME IS PINK. Pink flame are you serious? Not only are you a knob, you are a fairy.

Yes I have flown a Fuscia motor before.

Yes it was an M even.

Purple
I have not yet seen a good purple motor so I am just throwing this in here so everyone knows I didnt forget it. It would probably go somewhere before red. Its definitely knob.

4 White
White is definitely knob, mainly because people fly it just because it looks like SRBs. The difference? Large amounts of zinc and mag just make it look like that and in the end the impulse is bad. If it had lots of Alumium like a real SRB maybe its impulse wouldn't be god awful. I have seen people fly more white motors than anything else just because they look cool. Note, again using AMW's website as a reference, you will see that White has a worse impulse than red, but due to the fact that it doesnt have a wonkey colored flame I decided to put it this far on the list. I guess the fact that it looks real makes it less knob.

KnobPro:

Green
Green gets good impulse. Not only that its fast. Not only that it has applications in the military, yes I have seen rocket motors with green flames in commercial applications. The only knob factor of green is that it has a green flame. This is weird, unnatural almost. So you want to mix a green motor but don't want to be a tool? Its okay, the fact that you are playing with Barium, a highly toxic and potentially deadly chemical makes up for the fact that your motor has a green flame. So, the knobnicity is outweighted by the badass toxic chemicals, and also outweighed by the fact that making a good green motor is simply not easy. The chemicals must be in the perfect ratio and must be prepared correctly in order for the flame to be green. So green motors are peforming, legitamate, toxic, and take mad skilz. The only reason knob is associated with green is because people have alwways associated the two.

LAME Propellant

Aluminum
Boring flame, pretty good performance, and the smoke and flame are almost indistinguishable. 6&#37; (or other close variations) are the lamest motors people can possibly fly. The somewhat better performance does not outweigh the fact that these motors are about as exciting as a retirement home. These are blue motors made by people that dont have the cajones to add CuO.

Cool Propellant:

Fast
These propellants have cool flames AND people that use them have huge cajones. Often times these motors will tear rockets apart which is extra awesome. Not only are these motors hard to make they don't have the uneeded extras of other (knob) motors. Cranking motors are cool. The faster the better. (Kosdon motors are an example, and Supertiger is a mediocre fast motor.)

Awesome propellant

Blue
Blue is the greatest propellant type of all. It is a gift from the Gods and its incredibility can not be described. Blue is high performing and has an awesome flame. Blue can be fast or slow, smokey or smokeless. I have seen blue motors with higher ISP than any other propellant (in the EX community) and have seen more rockets shred at the hands of blue propellant than any other type. While it is hard to incorporate into some cases, in others it is easy. A good blue motor will automatically make your rocket look 100% better than it did before. The flame color is awesome and that speaks to the knob in me, while the performance is there for the practicality. Blue is amazing.

Funny!

Although, after personally watching skid motors propel multiple rockets to well over 12000' AGL (15000+ on one particular that I can think of) I would hardly say that they do "nothing," nor are they little more than a "fountain."

Still, Funny!

PS: How does Warp 9 propellant rate on the "knobnicity scale?"
 
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