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Runcoach

Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2023
Messages
9
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Location
Moosonee, Ontario, Canada
It is rocketry season here in our remote fly in or winter road only community. We launch every winter/spring off of the frozen river bed 5 km north of the airport boundary. We are surrounded by bush so it really is the only time and place to safely launch and recover. As a high-school science teacher, I have always been into rocketry, however, I have been into mid to high power rocketry for the last 6 years. I have just finished building a 7-engine composite motor cluster and I am looking for advice on successfully launching it. I wish everyone a happy year in rocketry and thank you in advance.
 
It is rocketry season here in our remote fly in or winter road only community. We launch every winter/spring off of the frozen river bed 5 km north of the airport boundary. We are surrounded by bush so it really is the only time and place to safely launch and recover. As a high-school science teacher, I have always been into rocketry, however, I have been into mid to high power rocketry for the last 6 years. I have just finished building a 7-engine composite motor cluster and I am looking for advice on successfully launching it. I wish everyone a happy year in rocketry and thank you in advance.
Welcome to the forum!

There are tons of cluster nuts out there - I go in and out as the mood strikes me. And as my wallet can stand the hit. Clustering 8 x G motors at $15 each was a lot easier than at $30+. If you search on clusters, you will see some amazing stuff

Cluster question 1: are you flying with CTI or Aerotech motors? It makes a difference. I fly mostly Aerotech because that's what the local vendor has, and that's all I can speak to. I dip my own ignitors. ClusterFire from Rocketflite. https://www.rocketflite.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&language=en-gb&path=61 I also verify continuity and match resistance across all of the ignitors I'm flying in a cluster. I've also been known to add a little bit of pyrogen to the top of the top grain to make sure I get a light.

Cluster question 2: Can your launch system provide All Fire current to seven ignitors at once? Hint: Do a couple of dry fires first, with just the ignitors, to see what happens when you push the "go" button. There are plans out there to build a cluster relay system, with a car battery at the launch pad.

Cluster question 3: Series vs Parallel. I've launched mine in a parallel configuration. There are a lot of opinions out there, and I can't tell you who is right.

General suggestion: Ground test everything else. Make sure your ejection charge(s) can actually separate your rocket and kick the chute out. If you are using electronics, do a vacuum test to ensure they are functional.

And don't forget to have fun!
 
Thank you very much. I knew to go parallel and will dip pyrogen to ensure ignition. As for launch system, it should be here Monday and I will do a dry run with igniters. I am curious to see if it has the current to fire all igniters at once.
 

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Thank you very much. I knew to go parallel and will dip pyrogen to ensure ignition. As for launch system, it should be here Monday and I will do a dry run with igniters. I am curious to see if it has the current to fire all igniters at once.
Hello and welcome!

I have that exact same ignition system (different manufacturer's label though) and have used it many times for both family fireworks shows and rocket motor static tests. Each receiver box has four connections for ematches. Each conex will fire three ematches in series** and will likely handle four; I haven't tried.

I don't want to be a doomsayer but these systems are designed to fire low-current (ca 0.5-1 amp), low-voltage (1.5 v) ematches. CTI motors use ematches for ignition, but other commercial rocket motor starters require significantly greater current and voltage to ensure ignition***. Even with fresh batteries my system ignites higher-current motor starters slowly, or not at all. Which for clustering is obviously a serious issue.

If I was trying to ignite seven motors simultaneously with this system, using higher-current motor starters instead of ematches, I would use a separate receiver for each starter and hit the "All Fire" button. Reason: each receiver has four AA batteries in series for 6 volts. That's barely enough voltage for most commercial starters. Wiring two starters in series would drop the voltage to 3v through each starter; too low. Wiring starters in parallel means that the batteries would have to supply twice the current needed for a single starter. I think that would slow down ignition even more. And using two separate conex on a receiver would be the same as wiring those two starters in parallel.

Frankly, I don't know of a good solution. Possibly the receivers could be powered by 12v instead of 6v; that would require a bit of wiring and might toast the receiver. Wiring in a 6v gel-cell or a big lantern battery or a second set of AA batteries in parallel to increase the current available might help. Regardless, careful testing would be necessary.

**Addressing the series-vs-parallel argument: commercial motor starters that require relatively high voltage and current should absolutely be wired in parallel, with a hefty battery to supply the necessary current. However, PROFESSIONALS wire commercial ematches in series for simultaneous ignition. It's proven technology and has been done that way for decades.

When the choice is between "here's what's been used successfully for simultaneous ignition, by professionals, for many years" and "we wire high-current starters in parallel, so we should do the same for lower-current ematches", I would recommend going with the professionals.

***Dipping an ematch into a pyro composition to make a low-current starter is an alternative...IF the dipped ematch will fit through the nozzle. Most F, G, and even H motors have pretty small nozzle throats...:(
 
Thank you. I was planning on using one cue or receiver for each motor to ensure sufficient current. I have 9 cues and was going to program 7 of them as area 1 and then go Area 1 Channel 1 for one engine, Area 1 Channel 2 for the second engine, etc. Then press All Fire. I have a bunch of igniters so I will do a test run first to ensure it works. I also have pyrogen for dipping them and I will make sure they fit the nozzles. Changing the battery source, if needed, will be my last resort and only if the device can support it. Thank you again so much for your feedback. I am learning from all of you.
 
An alternative is to attach a single receiver to a cluster relay, and use the relay (attached to a higher powered battery) to supply the power to ignite the motors.

http://www.bpasa.com/Cluster-box.htm
Boris Katan (the B of BPASA) has done some amazing things with cluster.
I should have taken your advice...lol It was an expensive lesson but one I will never forget. The Bilusocn BL-1200 is designed for fireworks and I guess that fireworks igniters/fuses respond quicker. Aerotech's Firstfire take 2.5s - 3.0s to ignite (I ran a test) from the time the button is pushed and the Bilusocn BL-1200 only keeps the relay closed for 2 s. I am also going to investigate different rocketry igniters to see if there are any that ignite quicker but still burn long enough to ignite the engines.
 
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I should add that I just did a test with the BL-1200 Bilusocn system and MJG Firewire Initiators and the four of them ignited immediately on one cue. There was no 2.5 s delay like with the Aerotech Firstfire igniters. My question now is, will the MJG Firstfire Initiator burn duration be enough to ignite a Aerotech H135W or a I65?
 
I should add that I just did a test with the BL-1200 Bilusocn system and MJG Firewire Initiators and the four of them ignited immediately on one cue. There was no 2.5 s delay like with the Aerotech Firstfire igniters. My question now is, will the MJG Firstfire Initiator burn duration be enough to ignite a Aerotech H135W or a I65?
I don't know. I think that the MJG Firewire is an e-match, in which case my guess is no. Especially with White propellant AT motors. AT Blue Thunder propellants (T/NT/ST) are the easiest to ignite, to the point that some people recommend putting slivers of blue propellant at the top of the motor one is trying to ignite to help the ignition process.
 
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