GOEX Closing

[Highpowerrocketyahoo]

Everywhere is out. They are shipping Swiss from Europe. Excellent product but a little more expensive. I was on my last can of Goex so i bi the bullet and ordered the Swiss. Be here Friday. Had to buy 5lbs. More than i will ever use probably but at least my supply is secure.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Resale is illegal. Fyi

To be accurate, “being in the business” of selling explosives without a license is illegal. A good lawyer would argue that selling an occasional spare pound of BP to someone is not “being in the business“.

 

[Highpowerrocketyahoo]

I always thought resale was strictly prohibeted no? I would love to be wrong here. Lol

 

[Steve Shannon]

I always thought resale was strictly prohibeted no? I would love to be wrong here. Lol

Here’s what ATF says:
May I sell black powder without a license?
Español
No. Anyone who engages in the business of selling black powder, regardless of quantity, must be licensed as an explosives dealer. [27 CFR 555.41(b)]

Note that it specifically says engages in the business. If you advertise, repeatedly sell, especially at a profit, then buy more to sell, or have a reputation of being the go-to for BP it might be difficult to claim you’re not engaged in the business, but I wouldn’t worry about letting a spare go to someone you know at the price you paid.
Of course this is just my opinion but if you search the internet you will find that “engaged in the business” has been core to some firearm cases.
Here’s what ATF says about being engaged in he business:
“The term “engaged in the business” as applied to a dealer in firearms means a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.”

 

[cwbullet]

I always thought resale was strictly prohibeted no? I would love to be wrong here. Lol

Yes. I bought a few for myself over the last several years. I will not sell it. I will give it away, but not sell it.

 

[rharshberger]

Here’s what ATF says:
May I sell black powder without a license?
Español
No. Anyone who engages in the business of selling black powder, regardless of quantity, must be licensed as an explosives dealer. [27 CFR 555.41(b)]

Note that it specifically says engages in the business. If you advertise, repeatedly sell, especially at a profit, then buy more to sell, or have a reputation of being the go-to for BP it might be difficult to claim you’re not engaged in the business, but I wouldn’t worry about letting a spare go to someone you know at the price you paid.
Of course this is just my opinion but if you search the internet you will find that “engaged in the business” has been core to some firearm cases.
Here’s what ATF says about being engaged in he business:
“The term “engaged in the business” as applied to a dealer in firearms means a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.”

By the definition above, IMO, buying say 10 cans and selling them to others at no profit is not engaging in business....for those 10 cans...now go buy 10 more and do it again and then you are treading lightly even if not selling for a profit, as that would be repetitive.

 

[David Schwantz]

Just give the stuff away and charge a $100 to ship it

 

[cerving]

If you buy it and sell it to somebody else, you're reselling it. Period. It doesn't matter if you make or lose money on the deal. We have a few things in our inventory that we sell at the same price that we buy them for, maybe even at a loss counting shipping. LiPo batteries come to mind...

 

[cwbullet]

Just give the stuff away and charge a $100 to ship it

That will get you in another dog house.

 

[cwbullet]

If you buy it and sell it to somebody else, you're reselling it. Period. It doesn't matter if you make or lose money on the deal. We have a few things in our inventory that we sell at the same price that we buy them for, maybe even at a loss counting shipping. LiPo batteries come to mind...

You are making too much sense.

 

[jderimig]

Individual to individuals transfers of firearms is not considered a business until you do it at a frequency that the ATF opines its a business operation. Its done all the time. Individual transfers of a can of BP would be similar in IMO. Especially if the BP is obtained and used in an exempt application. If its exempt then it is not a regulated material.

If its non-exempt then "selling" doesn't even matter. You are not allowed to transfer it, or even possess it the first place.

 

[cwbullet]

Individual to individuals transfers of firearms is not considered a business until you do it at a frequency that the ATF opines its a business operation. Its done all the time. Individual transfers of a can of BP would be similar in IMO. Especially if the BP is obtained and used in an exempt application. If its exempt then it is not a regulated material.

If its non-exempt then "selling" doesn't even matter. You are not allowed to transfer it, or even possess it the first place.

Technically, BP is not as clear in rocketry.

https://www.atf.gov/explosives/qa/black-powder-subject-regulation-under-federal-explosives-laws
Unfortunately, I do not think a rocket is a firearm.

 

[jderimig]

Technically, BP is not as clear in rocketry.

Unfortunately, I do not think a rocket is a firearm.

If that is the case you are free to sell it as you are already in Federal violation for possessing it.

 

[heada]

You could almost call BATFE enforcement "arbitrarily and capricious"

As with most things ATF, doing it at a personal level, not in business and not drawing attention to yourself and very good chance they wont care. Turn it into a business or be stupid about it and they'll come down on you like a sack of bricks.

 

[jderimig]

You could almost call BATFE enforcement "arbitrarily and capricious"

As with most things ATF, doing it at a personal level, not in business and not drawing attention to yourself and very good chance they wont care. Turn it into a business or be stupid about it and they'll come down on you like a sack of bricks.

Yes like posting on this forum that you ordered 50# of BP for your rockets and their friends.

 

[David Schwantz]

Nope, I only ordered 49

 

[Banzai88]

Individual to individuals transfers of firearms is not considered a business until you do it at a frequency that the ATF opines its a business operation. Its done all the time. Individual transfers of a can of BP would be similar in IMO. Especially if the BP is obtained and used in an exempt application. If its exempt then it is not a regulated material.

If its non-exempt then "selling" doesn't even matter. You are not allowed to transfer it, or even possess it the first place.

I've been in one end or another of the firearms industry for 30+ years. I also live in Virginia, where firearms are private property and private transfers are legal. I once asked one of our ATF auditors just how many guns bought/sold in a year would constitute "...engaged in the business of..." thereby necessitating the proper licenses. His response was "More than 5".

As with most things ATF, standby to standby, everything is maybe, and all interpretations are subject to change.....but I can't imagine they give a darn about an occasional pound or two of BP changing hands amongst folks that are using it for legitimate purposes.

I mean, dudes buy/sell/loan each other pounds of the stuff at anvil launching competitions, and those guys aren't in jail, either. And I imagine that lofting 50 pounds of steel in the sky is much, much more fringe than legitimate amateur rocketry.

 

[Steve Shannon]

I've been in one end or another of the firearms industry for 30+ years. I also live in Virginia, where firearms are private property and private transfers are legal. I once asked one of our ATF auditors just how many guns bought/sold in a year would constitute "...engaged in the business of..." thereby necessitating the proper licenses. His response was "More than 5".

As with most things ATF, standby to standby, everything is maybe, and all interpretations are subject to change.....but I can't imagine they give a darn about an occasional pound or two of BP changing hands amongst folks that are using it for legitimate purposes.

I mean, dudes buy/sell/loan each other pounds of the stuff at anvil launching competitions, and those guys aren't in jail, either. And I imagine that lofting 50 pounds of steel in the sky is much, much more fringe than legitimate amateur rocketry.

This ^^
And (those who do) stop talking about it like the ATF is going to swoop in with black helicopters and drag someone to Guantanamo because they have a film canister full of 4f. Just be discreet, don’t be an idiot online in order to demonstrate either your compliance or disdain for the guvmint.

 

[David Schwantz]

I don't know Steve. They might be the same guys as the "RC Police". They are gonna rush in and arrest me the minute I break the 400' barrier. If I am doing a low pass at 200 mph and I pull straight up, in .9 seconds I have broken the ceiling. Like Steve says, don't tell no one.

 

[cwbullet]

If that is the case you are free to sell it as you are already in Federal violation for possessing it.

I agree with that. I think the key point is to be careful of that you are doing and know the people you are dealing with. I have a BP rifle that I fire from time to time and that is what my black powder is for.

 

[jderimig]

I agree with that. I think the key point is to be careful of that you are doing and know the people you are dealing with. I have a BP rifle that I fire from time to time and that is what my black powder is for.

Every rocketeer should own a tiny brass cannon. Then you can share your BP with other tiny brass cannon owners.

 

[TheTank]

I agree with that. I think the key point is to be careful of that you are doing and know the people you are dealing with. I have a BP rifle that I fire from time to time and that is what my black powder is for.

Same here. In case I want sight in or hunt with my muzzleloader… I have BP for it… all 9lbs… ;-)

 

[Kelly]

To restate what has been said above, what and how the ATF enforces can change from moment to moment, and agent to agent.
That said, it is more likely that the ATF would not consider it a sale if you were merely redistributing cans that had been paid for ahead of time by others, and shipped in one lot to save on shipping/hazmat fees. That is, collect money from people, order 25 cans, pass them out to the others when they arrive at your place: You are probably not considered selling BP. Order 25 cans, and give them to others in exchange for $$ a bit at a time: You are probably engaged in the business of selling, whether or not you make a profit.

 

[Highpowerrocketyahoo]

Out of curiosity....for DD purposes what is the difference between 3F and 4F?

The size of the grains. You can mill 3F down to 4F etc. There are articles on the subject.

 

[Highpowerrocketyahoo]

Here’s what ATF says:
May I sell black powder without a license?
Español
No. Anyone who engages in the business of selling black powder, regardless of quantity, must be licensed as an explosives dealer. [27 CFR 555.41(b)]

Note that it specifically says engages in the business. If you advertise, repeatedly sell, especially at a profit, then buy more to sell, or have a reputation of being the go-to for BP it might be difficult to claim you’re not engaged in the business, but I wouldn’t worry about letting a spare go to someone you know at the price you paid.
Of course this is just my opinion but if you search the internet you will find that “engaged in the business” has been core to some firearm cases.
Here’s what ATF says about being engaged in he business:
“The term “engaged in the business” as applied to a dealer in firearms means a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.”

Good enough for me.

 

[cautery]

Just spent about 2 hours researching, and I am now confident that I can make better BP than I can buy.... and I already own the required equipment and have most of the materials and supplies sitting right here.

I am not worried anymore.

Just have to batch test, or blend multiple batches and test the blend to determine charge weight.
BTW, you start way, way, WAY low and work up the charge, pretty much like you do in reloading.... but a LOT more conservatively.
KEY is to either learn how to graphite your powder grains, or get really good at storing it with desiccant packs or other desiccating method.

I already use color changing desiccant packs (home made) in ALL of my open smokeless powder containers anyway.... Same with the reloader hoppers if I am going to leave powder in for more than 24 hours.

 

[NateB]

As with most things ATF, doing it at a personal level, not in business and not drawing attention to yourself and very good chance they wont care. Turn it into a business or be stupid about it and they'll come down on you like a sack of bricks.

I had an ATF agent tell me once they care more about how you get something than how you use or make something, as long as you aren't harming your neighbor. I thought they were one of the most reasonable regulatory agencies I have ever talked to. I should be free do use something that could be dangerous as long as my actions don't put others at risk.

 

[Rex R]

"We", once asked the batf about the modern spud launcher. Their reply was that, as long as we used them as such we were fine. Please don't do anything make us reconsider what a spud launcher is, Please. They really did not want the extra work. At the time we were getting muzzle velocities of around 600fps .

 

[Bat-mite]

Everyone can relax. I didn't resell any BP. I gave it away. When I got home, I discovered that someone had thrown some money in through my car window. They must have owed me some money from a lunch or something. Anyway, it's always nice to find money in your car!

 

[DAllen]

Everyone can relax. I didn't resell any BP. I gave it away. When I got home, I discovered that someone had thrown some money in through my car window. They must have owed me some money from a lunch or something. Anyway, it's always nice to find money in your car!

Sometimes I wish I could give multiple likes to one post