FROG: 3" carbon fiber rocket with composite case to 35,000 ft and Mach 3

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eggplant

L3 | NAR 93664, TRA 17791
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A friend and I spent much of 2023 designing, testing, and building a rocket that uses the carbon fiber body of the rocket as the motor case, and finally got to launch it at the end of the year. Not everything went perfectly as you will see in the video, but this was still the highest performance launch I have done in terms of both altitude and velocity (35,000 ft and Mach 3), and also the most custom parts I've ever included in a rocket. Almost every piece of hardware and tooling shown in the video was custom, from the nosecone layup and filament winder that made the tubes to the simulation software for the propellant and data acquisition system for the motor test. This truly was a "scratch build" and the culmination of a lot that I've been working on for years, so I'm still proud of the results (even if I wish I could see the onboard footage...). For the next one, we're focusing on getting the parachute to deploy at high altitude, and are aiming for an even higher apogee.
 


A friend and I spent much of 2023 designing, testing, and building a rocket that uses the carbon fiber body of the rocket as the motor case, and finally got to launch it at the end of the year. Not everything went perfectly as you will see in the video, but this was still the highest performance launch I have done in terms of both altitude and velocity (35,000 ft and Mach 3), and also the most custom parts I've ever included in a rocket. Almost every piece of hardware and tooling shown in the video was custom, from the nosecone layup and filament winder that made the tubes to the simulation software for the propellant and data acquisition system for the motor test. This truly was a "scratch build" and the culmination of a lot that I've been working on for years, so I'm still proud of the results (even if I wish I could see the onboard footage...). For the next one, we're focusing on getting the parachute to deploy at high altitude, and are aiming for an even higher apogee.

Beautiful work!
 
Nice man! What paint system did you go with and, beside the lettering, how do you think it held up near transitions and on the fins?
 
Nice man! What paint system did you go with and, beside the lettering, how do you think it held up near transitions and on the fins?

Thanks! It was just rustoleum barbecue paint applied without primer, and it held up pretty well! The rocket was going M3.05 at 7,000' AGL, and nearly all of the paint is still on. A good deal is missing from the fronts of the fillets, and I suspect the nosecone would have been similar if it had survived the landing. The burned-off lettering was done with Behr "Luck of the Irish" paint, because a project like this needs all the luck it can get. I guess it wasn't quite enough luck. Still, my previous attempt at M3 ended with a shred, so this was a nice step up!
 
Awesome project, thanks for sharing! Were you able to dig through the damage to see if your apogee charges fired?
 
Great video and incredible project! It's clear you did your homework and learned much along the way. Does this design (composite pressure vessel) result in a reusable rocket? Could you pour another motor, or is it single use? Any guesses why the parachute didn't deploy?
 
Awesome project, thanks for sharing! Were you able to dig through the damage to see if your apogee charges fired?
Thanks! Yeah, the charges did fire, but they apparently weren't enough to separate the rocket. The deployment scheme was a modification of what I built for my 3" rocket to 21kft in 2021, which was based on the charge cannon design from Jim Jarvis. Easy to say in retrospect, but this aspect of the project didn't get the same level of rigor as the rest. As shown in the video, the first ground test didn't work anywhere near as well as it had on the 2021 rocket, so we tweaked a few things about how the BP was contained and tried again. It worked much better that time, so with a lot left to do, we moved on without either proving that it was reliably fixed, or even really understanding exactly why the two tests were so different. My friend and I are starting with that investigation on the next one.
 
Thanks! Yeah, the charges did fire, but they apparently weren't enough to separate the rocket. The deployment scheme was a modification of what I built for my 3" rocket to 21kft in 2021, which was based on the charge cannon design from Jim Jarvis. Easy to say in retrospect, but this aspect of the project didn't get the same level of rigor as the rest. As shown in the video, the first ground test didn't work anywhere near as well as it had on the 2021 rocket, so we tweaked a few things about how the BP was contained and tried again. It worked much better that time, so with a lot left to do, we moved on without either proving that it was reliably fixed, or even really understanding exactly why the two tests were so different. My friend and I are starting with that investigation on the next one.
I had a similar experience testing my big project early on last year. I'd always ground tested by starting a bit small, and upping things until I got a result I was happy with, then calling it good.

When I had a couple mains fail to open in flight early in testing, I did a bunch more ground testing. It probably took me 10 attempts on both booster and second stage with (seemingly) small tweaks to how I prepped the recovery sections before I could consistently get the ground tests to look exactly the same for 3 tests in a row. It was an eye opener for me...

In the future, if it's a rocket I really care about and/or anything about my recovery setup is new, I think I'm going to be looking for the same 3 repeated tests before I'm happy.
 
Great video and incredible project! It's clear you did your homework and learned much along the way. Does this design (composite pressure vessel) result in a reusable rocket? Could you pour another motor, or is it single use? Any guesses why the parachute didn't deploy?
Thank you! No, one downside to this composite case design is that the motor hardware is entirely single-use, and if you glue the fins on the case as was done with FROG, they are single use as well. If reusability was the goal of the project, the fins could be glued onto a tube that slides over the motor, which could be removed afterwards. The nosecone, electronics, and recovery can be moved to the next rocket... as long as they survive :rolleyes: . I've started to value reusability less for projects like this, because:
  • The chance of it being re-flown exactly as-is is pretty low. Saving expensive components like altimeters, cameras, and parachutes for the next project is important, of course, but especially as an east-coaster who has quite the journey to get to a place where I can launch a rocket like this, the appeal of launching the _exact_ same thing again isn't particularly high. I have non-MD rockets I can re-fly on Loki hardware at URRG, but for high-performance stuff I'm usually going to want to chase the next idea.
  • This point is only relevant for people who are willing to delve into EX, but when you think about what the expensive parts of a motor that you want to reuse are, it is just the case, closures, and nozzle (for Loki/snapring motors). The case (expensive anodized aluminum tube) is the biggest cost, and this design replaces it with a CF tube that cost me $40 to make. Even without the winder, laying up a simple tube using your liner as a mandrel very cheap compared to the commercial alternative, and has been done before. Closures are very simple to make from cheap stock if you have access to a lathe, and it isn't even that expensive to buy the DMS ones from RCS if you don't have machining capability. Not being able to reuse the nozzle is a downside, but I think the chance of a $500 AT case making it through enough flights with this profile to be a better investment is low*. And that's before accounting for the mass savings! I'd love to see more people explore this space.

* Yes, I know this statement is setting me up for string of replies about people's 25-year-old motor hardware.
 
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Thanks! Yeah, the charges did fire, but they apparently weren't enough to separate the rocket. The deployment scheme was a modification of what I built for my 3" rocket to 21kft in 2021, which was based on the charge cannon design from Jim Jarvis. Easy to say in retrospect, but this aspect of the project didn't get the same level of rigor as the rest. As shown in the video, the first ground test didn't work anywhere near as well as it had on the 2021 rocket, so we tweaked a few things about how the BP was contained and tried again. It worked much better that time, so with a lot left to do, we moved on without either proving that it was reliably fixed, or even really understanding exactly why the two tests were so different. My friend and I are starting with that investigation on the next one.
Interesting. I have a project scheduled to fly in a couple weeks to the same altitude using ejection cannons as well. The approach I take is to light the BP from the top rather than the bottom. The idea being you don’t blast unburnt powder out of the tube that doesn’t combust and pressurize the airframe. I also pack the empty remaining volume in the tube with wadding which makes the deployment a bit more energetic than without it. I have used this method on flights to 70k and 53k with nominal deployments. I haven’t done the extensive testing, but take that data point for what it’s worth.
 
I've started to value reusability less for projects like this, because:

Very interesting, thanks for the details. That makes a lot of sense. This certainly isn't your average weekend pop'n'drop. Looking forward to your next attempt, good luck!
 
Great project and excellent flight! Bummer that the chute didn't come out. What was the design of the charge cannons? ID and length of the tube, amount of BP, and ematch location?

I'm not sure how the upper and lower airframes were connected. Could expansion of the motor have locked the tubes together?

Jim
 
After a failed recovery where both charges fired, I'm a firm believer in oversizing backup charges by at least 50%. Rockets are tough, and it doesn't really add any risk to a flight to have a significantly more energetic backup charge.
I've the phrase "blow it up, or blow it out" thrown around when talking about the backup charge.
 
I've the phrase "blow it up, or blow it out" thrown around when talking about the backup charge.

Also, always keep in mind, BP charges at 12K+ are much weaker then they are on the ground. I know a few experienced folks that get bit by that issue. Ground tested fine, when flown charges at 15K the rocket core sampled.

I learned from others that had that happen. My backup charge was even in surgical tubing for the 17K above 4K ground Apogee level in the rocket in my Avatar.
 
Also, always keep in mind, BP charges at 12K+ are much weaker then they are on the ground. I know a few experienced folks that get bit by that issue. Ground tested fine, when flown charges at 15K the rocket core sampled.

I learned from others that had that happen. My backup charge was even in surgical tubing for the 17K above 4K ground Apogee level in the rocket in my Avatar.
Art,

The charges that Andrew is using work exactly the same way in space as they do on the ground. That's one of the key advantages of them - no guessing on performance at altitude.

Surgical tubing charges do not work (very well) at altitude, despite their reputation for that service. Tfish knows that, and has developed an alternative approach that does work. His modified method can be found here (somewhere).

It's been a while since I posted the original cannon charge method, so it's attached.

Jim
 

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Art,

The charges that Andrew is using work exactly the same way in space as they do on the ground. That's one of the key advantages of them - no guessing on performance at altitude.

Surgical tubing charges do not work (very well) at altitude, despite their reputation for that service. Tfish knows that, and has developed an alternative approach that does work. His modified method can be found here (somewhere).

It's been a while since I posted the original cannon charge method, so it's attached.

Jim

Thanks Jim. As my rocket's flight took place 5 years before you wrote this, I was in the Tubing Camp that many used and recommended. I have read this paper just now and yes it is "sound" as people would say in reviewing papers. :)

Thanks for posting and keeping me more up-to-date
 
Great project and excellent flight! Bummer that the chute didn't come out. What was the design of the charge cannons? ID and length of the tube, amount of BP, and ematch location?

I'm not sure how the upper and lower airframes were connected. Could expansion of the motor have locked the tubes together?

Jim

Thanks Jim! The design was a variation on your original, and looked about like this:
1704931290938.png
The orange part of the diagram was a 3.5" long piece of 0.325" ID, 0.375" OD copper pipe. Inside was a little 3D printed "cup" (shown in green) that has a tiny hole on the bottom sized for an e-match (red) to pass through. The end is then potted with 5 minute epoxy (yellow), the BP (blue) is poured in, and then the top is also potted with epoxy to keep the BP in. This charge is then slid into the base of the copper pipe, which is stuffed with wadding (not pictured) and taped over several times with masking tape. The cup is a really nice fit in the tube, and the idea was that it almost acts like a piston, keeping the BP contained and near the ematch until the cup itself has been ejected from the tube. Further, the theory was that if the cup doesn't actually do anything, this should still be equivalent to the standard charge cannon. This worked really well on my 2021 rocket, but for volume reasons we didn't reuse that system exactly and dropped from 0.5" copper pipe to 0.375" for FROG. For the first test shown in the video, we used tape to seal off the top of the cup as that was what was done on the 2021 rocket. You can clearly see BP burning after the nosecone has already separated in that test. We then switched to sealing up the top of the cup with epoxy, which burned much more completely, as you can't see any flame in the second deployment test in the video.

This first test was something that I wish we'd paid more attention to, because it totally invalidated the assumption that "even if the piston thing doesn't work, the long pipe will save us". Even though the next test with the epoxy worked, the fact that the first test hadn't meant that the long copper pipe didn't guarantee complete combustion, but we focused on the working second test and didn't think about it.


20231114_212712.jpg20231215_221716.jpg

Also, turns out my collaborator does have a TRF account (@saustin) and will be posting an explanation for a neat pattern we saw in the paint post-flight soon!
 
Thanks Jim! The design was a variation on your original, and looked about like this:
View attachment 623803
The orange part of the diagram was a 3.5" long piece of 0.325" ID, 0.375" OD copper pipe. Inside was a little 3D printed "cup" (shown in green) that has a tiny hole on the bottom sized for an e-match (red) to pass through. The end is then potted with 5 minute epoxy (yellow), the BP (blue) is poured in, and then the top is also potted with epoxy to keep the BP in. This charge is then slid into the base of the copper pipe, which is stuffed with wadding (not pictured) and taped over several times with masking tape. The cup is a really nice fit in the tube, and the idea was that it almost acts like a piston, keeping the BP contained and near the ematch until the cup itself has been ejected from the tube. Further, the theory was that if the cup doesn't actually do anything, this should still be equivalent to the standard charge cannon. This worked really well on my 2021 rocket, but for volume reasons we didn't reuse that system exactly and dropped from 0.5" copper pipe to 0.375" for FROG. For the first test shown in the video, we used tape to seal off the top of the cup as that was what was done on the 2021 rocket. You can clearly see BP burning after the nosecone has already separated in that test. We then switched to sealing up the top of the cup with epoxy, which burned much more completely, as you can't see any flame in the second deployment test in the video.

This first test was something that I wish we'd paid more attention to, because it totally invalidated the assumption that "even if the piston thing doesn't work, the long pipe will save us". Even though the next test with the epoxy worked, the fact that the first test hadn't meant that the long copper pipe didn't guarantee complete combustion, but we focused on the working second test and didn't think about it.


View attachment 623804View attachment 623805

Also, turns out my collaborator does have a TRF account (@saustin) and will be posting an explanation for a neat pattern we saw in the paint post-flight soon!
I think the diameter and length of the tube is fine. I use 0.35 ID and 3" long with 1.5 to 2.0 grams of BP. How much BP did you use?

So, I would suspect that you used the cup so that you could bring the ematch wire into the tube from above while still keeping the ematch head at ground-level pressure? I don't have an issue with the concept, but I did dozens of tests with no atmospheric containment within the cannon and with the tube simply open on the top, and there was never any unburned BP at all.

I would expect your design to work, but it is curious that your poorly contained test didn't work very well. Since the charges as I make them work very well with no initial air and no containment, why did these things affect the performance your charges?

Jim
 
Hi everyone, as Andrew mentioned I am the other collaborator on this project. I wanted to note some analysis that I did on a pattern we saw in the paint after the flight. There was a short boat tail on the aft end that was painted green, and the paint was applied without primer two days before the launch, so it did not have the full adhesive strength as the white paint applied to the rest of the rocket.

After the flight, we noticed that there were some interesting triangular patterns on the boat tail behind the fins where some of the paint was removed:

1704990522163-png.623895


Those marks are probably either regions of high turbulence in the wake of the airfoil (vorticity/recirculation=paint removal) or the trailing edge shock wave. I would guess the latter because the wake doesn’t fan out at an angle like that.

Examining a diamond airfoil, we have the following scenario. I pulled this from someone’s CFD results of a foil with half angle 10 deg at mach 3: https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1742-6596/2272/1/012003/pdf

1704990707200-png.623896


From this photo, I measure the included trailing edge shock angle to be approximately 27 degrees:
1704990750655-png.623897


The angle of the first oblique shock can be calculated analytically assuming a weak shock and a theta of 10 degrees (in the above case) from a freestream mach number of 3. From here the shock angle beta and post shock mach number (conditions in the red zone) are computed from the oblique shock relations.

In this zone, the local mach number is lower than that of the freestream. As the flow crosses the mid-chord of the foil, it undergoes a prandtl-meyer expansion through an angle equal to twice the foil half angle. The mach number downstream of the expansion (blue zone) is computed using the prandtl meyer function. In this region, the local mach number is higher than that of the freestream.

Finally, due to the symmetry of the foil and assuming no angle of attack, the flow undergoes another compression at the trailing edge (with the creation of another oblique shock) at a half angle equal to the foil half angle. The same oblique shock relations are used as before to find the shock angle, but with two modifications. First, the “upstream” pre-shock mach number is not equal to the freestream mach, it is the higher value (blue zone) calculated from the PM function. Secondly, the shock angle beta is not the same as the geometric half angle measured from the photo because the shock angle is relative to the top surface of the foil, not the horizontal. So, the foil half angle must be subtracted from beta to get the shock half angle. When I do this for the CFD case above (mach 3, half angle 10 degrees), I get an included angle of 28.4 deg which is very close to the crude measurement of the CFD result.

Running the calculation for a 5 degree foil half angle at mach 3 gives an included angle of 32.8 deg, which compares to the 26.5 deg that I measured from the rocket. Lots of sources of error including angle of attack deviation, changes in the shock angle with mach number, 3D effects of finite span etc, so it seems to be in reasonable agreement given those factors.

1704990789178.png
 

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Was it difficult to locate and reach the impact spot? Your telemetry image suggests that was maybe 1000ft east of FAR. I guess you had to walk to the last telemetry location and hunt around the sagebrush?
(I ask since I'm planning a very modest [by your standards!] flight, maybe 10kft & M1.1).
 
The rocket landed 1.3 mi NE of FAR. We used the Kate avionics system from @VernK, which made locating the rocket very simple. I entered the coordinates of the last GPS packet from the receiver into google maps on my phone, and we drove as far as we could and then walked the rest of the way. I was tracking my location blue dot on my phone, and when it lined up on top of the dropped coordinate pin, I looked down at my feet and the base of the rocket (buried up to the nozzle in the dirt) was right there.

Vern's telemetry system does have a built in wayfinding feature, but I found it easier to enter the coordinates into google maps because I could see the roads and terrain on the satellite imagery.

One of my previous rockets had a similar ballistic recovery a few years ago but was buried all the way in the dirt, so it took some looking to find the patch of disturbed dirt where the rocket had entered (and the dirt had covered up the hole).
 
Thanks! It wasn't clear to me from Google Earth that there were drivable tracks for my jeep, unless you went back out to the Randsburg Road, though I hadn't poked around in previous visits (I also recall BLM map showing sections of private land to the north). I've had pretty good service with Eggfinders.

PS mental error on my part--your image clearly shows 1+ mile displacement. With 7 miles up, that pretty much counts as straight up and down!
 

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