fin to body ratio

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Lt72884

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Sep 11, 2022
Messages
506
Reaction score
174
Location
Utah
Reading steins book, i have read a lot of it and one thing i have not seen in the book, is a fin to body ratio. IE, should the fin be a certain size for the rocket based off of body tube length and diameter?

i have read chapter 4, 9 and 14 for construction, stability and large rocket construction as well as the sections on fins. I understand that for a HPR, a through-the-body type fin should be used with a double taped bonding joint on the outside.

or are fins the last thing to design to ensure that the CP is between 1-2 calibers aft of the CG in the final product after all other items have been added to the rocket?

thanks
 
This may not really be an answer to the question you are asking. It is more a post on approach.

There are likely lots of ways to approach designing a rocket. The approach you choose should support whatever your goals might be. And the design process is generally iterative - one of successive refinements until one is satisfied, or says it is good enough, or gives up!

So what is your goal?

If it is for instance related to performance in some capacity, then the place to start is to suppose a flight profile that supports meeting the performance goal. Then work backwards from the flight profile to a hypothetical rocket that could meet that profile.

Perhaps the goal is to put on a good show. Here, a rocket that is too light or too heavy for its size and draggy for its size could allow everything to happen lower down where it is more visible.

Perhaps your goal is to make the cheapest rocket you can make that can fly reliably and repeatedly on a J.

So start with the goal. Then identify characteristics of the rocket which could meet your goals, and then refine that rocket. Part of that refinement is defining the fins.

Fins do have a lot of impact on appearance. They have a lot of impact on stability. But they have less of an impact on performance.

I'll give you a rather lengthy thought experiment on designing a rocket, since it is one that I'm considering. But, due to circumstances outside my control, one I probably won't get to do, or at least not in the near future.

My goal was a modest sized rocket to be able to punch well beyond 100Kft. Say, total impulse not beyond the O range. However I wanted high survivability. By that I mean the intent is to avoid excessive velocity, particularly lower down. That reduces or eliminates aeroheating and flutter concerns, and generally reduces structural issues. I was willing to take on other issues in exchange. Nothing is for free!

Ah, never mind. It probably has nothing to do with whatever your goal(s) might be.

Just start by stating your goals, perhaps just a simple paragraph like what I just did. It gives you a place to start, and tends to reduce the time spent getting spun up in different directions that are interesting but otherwise do not contribute towards achieving your goals.

Then start sketching out the rocket that might meet your goals. There might be several such. How big is it? Or how big of a motor, or how small of a motor, does it use? What sort of recovery? What sort of electronics is required to make that recovery work? Any other air events than recovery related ones (staging, for instance)?

Refine the airframe and contents, then worry about the fins. Even for a high performance rocket, you can sim it with sketched in fins. That will tell you what the fins have to survive. Then you can start designing the fins.

For a partial answer to your original question:

It is best for each fin to stick out farther than the greatest diameter of the airframe.

Four fins are more resistant to coning than three.

For near optimal stiffness distribution for the available mass, the tips of the fins should be roughly a third the thickness of the root of the fin. That helps keep your flutter speed high. Flutter is BAD. But for a BDR going subsonic it might not be a concern. And kits of course don't do it because it is more work. Easier to cut out a slab fin and bevel it. And quite often that is fully sufficient, and cheaper, which can make it the best choice.

Oh, FWIW, the 1 to 2 calibers thing is incorrect. It is an oversimplification; just a rule of thumb. It's often good, but not always. A long skinny rocket you might want more like 10%. And if high supersonic, say around M3 or so, you need to pay attention to the speed-dependent movement of the CP. And of course the CG probably moves as the propellant is burned. Heck, even the CP depends on whether the motor is burning, or not, since it alters the drag distribution by altering the base drag, affecting stability.

But for a generic rocket design flying in an average sort of way, 1 to 2 calibers is probably fine.

The thing about rocket science is there is almost always a deeper level. The more you learn, the more you realize there is left to learn.

Gerald
 
the rule of thumb I remember seeing is:
( a very general rule / aesthetics / starting point)

1 caliber = tube diameter (as discussed in another thread!)

rocket body length = 10x caliber.
Nose cone = 2x caliber
Fin height is 1 caliber.
Fin root is 2x caliber
Fin tip is 1 caliber

assuming 3 fins..
 
the rule of thumb I remember seeing is:
( a very general rule / aesthetics / starting point)

1 caliber = tube diameter (as discussed in another thread!)

rocket body length = 10x caliber.
Nose cone = 2x caliber
Fin height is 1 caliber.
Fin root is 2x caliber
Fin tip is 1 caliber

assuming 3 fins..
Awesome thank you. I went through more of the book between the time of the orginal post and now. I have found alot of information. More than i can write down at the moment due to time constrainst of the class and project deadlins...

We want to use 4 fins, so will those numbers change? i know the figure 10-13 in the book per the other usesers information shows the dims, but is it only good for 3 fins?
 
I don't pay that much attention to fin size mandates unless it requires me to use 5 or more fins to maintain properly stability.
 
This may not really be an answer to the question you are asking. It is more a post on approach.

There are likely lots of ways to approach designing a rocket. The approach you choose should support whatever your goals might be. And the design process is generally iterative - one of successive refinements until one is satisfied, or says it is good enough, or gives up!

So what is your goal?

If it is for instance related to performance in some capacity, then the place to start is to suppose a flight profile that supports meeting the performance goal. Then work backwards from the flight profile to a hypothetical rocket that could meet that profile.

Perhaps the goal is to put on a good show. Here, a rocket that is too light or too heavy for its size and draggy for its size could allow everything to happen lower down where it is more visible.

Perhaps your goal is to make the cheapest rocket you can make that can fly reliably and repeatedly on a J.

So start with the goal. Then identify characteristics of the rocket which could meet your goals, and then refine that rocket. Part of that refinement is defining the fins.

Fins do have a lot of impact on appearance. They have a lot of impact on stability. But they have less of an impact on performance.

I'll give you a rather lengthy thought experiment on designing a rocket, since it is one that I'm considering. But, due to circumstances outside my control, one I probably won't get to do, or at least not in the near future.

My goal was a modest sized rocket to be able to punch well beyond 100Kft. Say, total impulse not beyond the O range. However I wanted high survivability. By that I mean the intent is to avoid excessive velocity, particularly lower down. That reduces or eliminates aeroheating and flutter concerns, and generally reduces structural issues. I was willing to take on other issues in exchange. Nothing is for free!

Ah, never mind. It probably has nothing to do with whatever your goal(s) might be.

Just start by stating your goals, perhaps just a simple paragraph like what I just did. It gives you a place to start, and tends to reduce the time spent getting spun up in different directions that are interesting but otherwise do not contribute towards achieving your goals.

Then start sketching out the rocket that might meet your goals. There might be several such. How big is it? Or how big of a motor, or how small of a motor, does it use? What sort of recovery? What sort of electronics is required to make that recovery work? Any other air events than recovery related ones (staging, for instance)?

Refine the airframe and contents, then worry about the fins. Even for a high performance rocket, you can sim it with sketched in fins. That will tell you what the fins have to survive. Then you can start designing the fins.

For a partial answer to your original question:

It is best for each fin to stick out farther than the greatest diameter of the airframe.

Four fins are more resistant to coning than three.

For near optimal stiffness distribution for the available mass, the tips of the fins should be roughly a third the thickness of the root of the fin. That helps keep your flutter speed high. Flutter is BAD. But for a BDR going subsonic it might not be a concern. And kits of course don't do it because it is more work. Easier to cut out a slab fin and bevel it. And quite often that is fully sufficient, and cheaper, which can make it the best choice.

Oh, FWIW, the 1 to 2 calibers thing is incorrect. It is an oversimplification; just a rule of thumb. It's often good, but not always. A long skinny rocket you might want more like 10%. And if high supersonic, say around M3 or so, you need to pay attention to the speed-dependent movement of the CP. And of course the CG probably moves as the propellant is burned. Heck, even the CP depends on whether the motor is burning, or not, since it alters the drag distribution by altering the base drag, affecting stability.

But for a generic rocket design flying in an average sort of way, 1 to 2 calibers is probably fine.

The thing about rocket science is there is almost always a deeper level. The more you learn, the more you realize there is left to learn.

Gerald
10% of what??
 
the rule of thumb I remember seeing is:
( a very general rule / aesthetics / starting point)

1 caliber = tube diameter (as discussed in another thread!)

rocket body length = 10x caliber.
Nose cone = 2x caliber
Fin height is 1 caliber.
Fin root is 2x caliber
Fin tip is 1 caliber

assuming 3 fins..
are these parmaters in the book by stein? i am on chapter 10 right now, and i finished 9.
 
Back
Top