Ethics of scratchbuilding a kit

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Kind of funny this subject came up today.

I was just browsing rocket related websites and spent some time on https://www.artapplewhite.com/. They have got some cool stuff (albeit a tad pricey in my opinion... but unique enough). I will more than likely purchase a few items (and take advantage of some of the freebie card-stock downloads). The thing that struck me as fairly rude was all the "whining" about how it was wrong, an illegal copyright infringement, immoral and a sin to clone, upscale or downscale their designs.... lol







Immoral or a sin? Come on Art Applewhite... that just makes you sound like a cranky old timer. Model rocketeers where flying saucers and spools decades before you launched your company.










Jerome :)

After bashing Art, you say "I will more than likely purchase a few items". If I was Art I wouldn't sell a slandering **** like you squat!
I think you need to watch what you say about the vendors here.
 
After bashing Art, you say "I will more than likely purchase a few items". If I was Art I wouldn't sell a slandering **** like you squat!
I think you need to watch what you say about the vendors here.

Anchorman_well_that_escalated_quickly_966.jpg
 
After bashing Art, you say "I will more than likely purchase a few items". If I was Art I wouldn't sell a slandering **** like you squat!
I think you need to watch what you say about the vendors here.

Actually, if you read "left to right" as we do in English.... I said "I will more than likely purchase a few items" first... then criticized his whining. Slandering is implying I am making up lies... it is clearly all over his website, therefore not slander as it is true.

Perhaps vendors should consider what they post on their websites. I found it to be childish and rude. Bashing.. whatever... don't get preachy if you can't take it as well.


Jerome :) lol
 
I generally do not simply clone a kit. I have bought kits where I threw everything but the nosecone into my parts bin so I could change the motor mount diameter and make the fins and airframe out of real materials. Most of the time I just want to upscale the design (I like big rockets). With rare exception, I buy the original kit if it is in production - sometimes after I have already flown the one I built. Case in point is the Black Star Voyager, I built mine before the kit was even available for purchase, but bought the kit a few months later. BTW, I note that Estes no longer makes the instructions for their new kits available on line before the kit can be purchased. I find it incredible that they continue to design and market new exciting designs and cannot blame them for wanting to sell a few before people start building upon their ideas. At some level I want to believe that a well executed upscale will help them sell more of that kit. As too the ethics of all this, I feel it is a big gray area with a close balance of the Pro's and Con's.
 
On the art applewhite kits . I asked if he will kit the 38mm saucer . He said no due to people putting to much thrust in them . ( hey it said it can take an I let's put the biggest j in it ) it didn't do well . But you can come up with your own design. It's not very easy thinking two shrouds back to back with a mount in the center . Nope didn't sim right . I will suck it up and just use the 29mm version . I scratched built a RW kit there little squat and didn't realize till it was done . Very close to being a clone . To me if it's being sold through the manufacturer then buy it . If not its free game .
 
I won't speak for Art Applewhite, but judging from his statement on his website, it seems like he feels he has created some unique designs, and therefore he owns the intellectual property and has a right to make money on those designs and control their reproduction. I don't know if that is actually true in a strictly legal sense, but he is certainly free to state his opinions about the ethics and morality of the subject. There is often a big difference between what is illegal and what is unethical and immoral. I sincerely doubt he would bother to come after you with legal action if he found out you cloned his designs, even if he was pissed off about it from a moral and ethical standpoint. It couldn't possibly be worth it.

A few other things about Art. The stuff on his website does not seem overly expensive to me. It also sounds like he donates the profits to various rocketry-related organizations, although I don't know if that means ALL or just SOME of the profits. Either way, some of the markup may be for charity sake. He also seems to me like a pretty nice guy. I bought a few things last year, and exchanged a few email back and forth with him with questions about the monocopters. I told him i was having trouble deciding between two designs, but I went ahead and picked one. When the box arrived, he had thrown in the other one for free with a little note to try them both and compare. Also, he does have posted on his website some FREE plans that you are FREE to download for FREE --- so it's not like he is jealously hoarding his designs and only selling them to the highest bidder.
 
Yes his price look good , the 54mm stealth price does not fit . But that's one kit . I will buy some of his kits ,but there not the size I really want .
 
I know Art personally. He is a cranky old timer. He is also a friend. He has some very strong opinions on the subject (and not just about his designs, I've seen him look askance at a clone of a Centuri design also). He is vocal about his opinions. Occasionally, he is a real pain. He also goes way above and beyond to help rocket enthusiasts at all ages and levels. He'd give you the shirt off his back if needed.

I don't agree with Art on a lot of things. I disagree with him on the cloning matter, as per my previous post in this thread. I would never accuse him of being a bad, mean, malicious or even a mean spirited person. He's not. He's a great guy. He's just... Art.
 
I was curious so I had to go look at the Art Applewhite website. I'm gonna be honest in saying that there is nothing on his site that I would buy or *ahem* bother cloning. On another note, that web site design is stuck in the early 90's.
 
A while back, I saw this https://www.rocketreviews.com/arg---dragonfire-launch-pad.html on Art's website. I recognized the components for what they are: chain link fence parts available at your local home improvement center. I thought this was a very clever design and something that almost anyone with a hacksaw and drill could build. I also noted that Art holds the copyrights to his designs as well he should. So I emailed Art and asked for his permission to build one for my own personal use. He replied with a very nice email, thanking me for asking his blessing. So I sent him a "freebie" PDF set of plans for my Guillotine Fin Jig.

I think anyone who comes up with a clever idea that benefits his fellow man is entitled to the fruits of that labor, be it intellectual property or manufactured goods. Art Applewhite is a class act.

Don't Mess with Texas!
 
Just to make this more involved . What about bombs,missiles and real rockets and craft ?
Like I will be doing a 1/2 scale cbu 97 . Estes had or has the blu-97 there the same. Thing well the blu is the bomblets the cbu has onboard . But the estes kit is not in scale its off . For all this scale stuff its sometimes scratch built and I dont think ( I can be thinking wrong ) you would need to buy a kit . Due to you designing from reports , old pictures and other data that you have collected .
 
I'll go on record with my own views. This isn't a judgment of anybody, just my own personal take on the issue:

1. Guiding principles: I want to reward designers for their efforts, I want to support manufacturers to be profitable enough to exist, I want to respect trademarks, and I want to comply with copyright law.

For me it boils down to this:

2. If the kit is available in the scale I want to build, I buy it. Period.

3. Once I've bought one, I wouldn't feel bad about scratching up another of the same scale, but in practice it's just easier to buy the kit again. Keep in mind decals cost money, so it's usually just cheaper to buy another kit, and doing so benefits designer/manufacturer.

4. If I'm altering the kit (as in, custom tube lengths, specialty decals not the same as original), but it's still pretty clearly a clone of a commercially available kit, I still buy the original first. Example: Der Green Max (with decal saying green, not red).

4. If I want to build a different scale, and that scale is not available commercially, I would typically buy the original kit (to reward designer/manufacturer) then would feel free to build a different scale. If I want to reproduce (or have Stickershock/Excelsior reproduce) the decals, I would contact the manufacturer first to obtain permission, presuming it is practical to do so. I've done this with Estes and Fliskits, and they've always given me permission as long as I'm not selling anything.

5. If the kit is OOP but the designer/manufacturer can be contacted, I would do so to obtain permission to build either an original scale or up/down scaled version. My own twisted ethics suggests to me that it's +karma to buy a different (available) rocket from that manufacturer to kick into their kitty a bit in return for granted permission.

6. If the kit is OOP and the manufacturer is out of the business, I would just go ahead without any qualms.

This is how I see it. I've never been unable to build anything I want based on following these personal rules.

Marc

PS: If the designer is in business, and I'm thinking to do something fairly radical to the design, while leaving it basically recognizable as their design I will contact them to make sure they wouldn't mind.
 
Just to make this more involved . What about bombs,missiles and real rockets and craft ?
Like I will be doing a 1/2 scale cbu 97 . Estes had or has the blu-97 there the same. Thing well the blu is the bomblets the cbu has onboard . But the estes kit is not in scale its off . For all this scale stuff its sometimes scratch built and I dont think ( I can be thinking wrong ) you would need to buy a kit . Due to you designing from reports , old pictures and other data that you have collected .

For "Cloning" of "Real" Rockets and Missiles, it's Open Season!!! No shame in it whatsoever!!!
The "Real" stuff is designed by Teams of People, not just one Guy in his Basement making Models to sell to Hobbiests to try to make some Money.
The "Real" stuff is paid for by Government Contracts, which in turn means TAX PAYERS DOLLARS.
Thus, you already own a Share in the Design by default, as it is the Peoples Money that paid to Engineer the Rocket or Missile.
When it comes to Cloning other Countries Designs, think of it like this, Odds are they have stolen some of our Designs anyhow at one time or another, so by Cloning their stuff, you not only "Stick it to them", but honor their Design Bureaus and Scientists at the same time. Win Win.

:)
 
Top ramen I like how you think . But what it boils down to if it's still being sold from the manufacture just buy the kit then you can build that estes kit and build it with wood and not balsa or what ever or if not in production then find the plans there on line and get a sim and start building .
 
Speaking of bashing...

I probably should have more correctly labeled my purchasing various kits for the parts they contained that eventually became other design as "kitbashing".

For example I bought a Big Bertha that formed the basis of a Der Big Red Max. The nose cone came from an actual DRM kit. I also bought a CC Express and turned it into a design from the YORS (Ye Olde Rocketshoppe) BARCLONE repository: Cherokee DD.

Cloning: I built a Goblin from Semroc parts. I'm sure the kits are still available someone where but the parts were cheaper.
 
After I built and flew my 2.5x Upscale of the Estes Black Star Voyager, I was contacted by a gent from Germany. He wanted me to provide to provide him with my CAD files so he could do a CNC copy of my adaptation of the the Estes kit. I told him that while I found the Estes design to be very useful in guiding my design, that I had invested a lot of time in custom changes to adapt it to the materials and scale I was building it at. I did send him my RockSim file for the rocket (which was a very little use). Over the next few months, I followed his design development and build of the rocket. He made a couple of very serious errors along the way (he had no idea how to attach the fins to the airframe - something I had spent a lot of time engineering and that did not copy from the original Estes design). My point here is that there is a lot more to designing and building a rocket than copying some exterior design elements. An E9 motor is not easily compared to an L1030. This includes 1:1 scale retro fits to allow for increased capabilities. The person "cloning" the design will almost certainly introduce modifications and intellectual improvements that make the design their own creation. Patent law seems to support these sorts of enhancements.
 
I know Art personally. He is a cranky old timer. He is also a friend. He has some very strong opinions on the subject (and not just about his designs, I've seen him look askance at a clone of a Centuri design also). He is vocal about his opinions. Occasionally, he is a real pain. He also goes way above and beyond to help rocket enthusiasts at all ages and levels. He'd give you the shirt off his back if needed.

I don't agree with Art on a lot of things. I disagree with him on the cloning matter, as per my previous post in this thread. I would never accuse him of being a bad, mean, malicious or even a mean spirited person. He's not. He's a great guy. He's just... Art.

Very true... I've gotten the same impression of him from the times I've met him, when they were flying at our place at Shiner.

We're all entitled to our opinions, even if others disagree. I think we increasingly forget that nowdays... or at least many people do.

Art's entitled to his opinions about cloning and such, and I'm entitled to mine, as JAL is to his, as everyone else is to theirs. I'm not past cloning stuff, but I'm not particularly doing it, either. I basically "cloned" a Big Bertha for a night launcher, to loft a whirligig LED toy... basically printed off the BB fin pattern and built my own out of paper towel tubing for a cheap night launcher. Modded it with standoffs sufficient to clear the much larger dome of the whirligig toy. Worked great. If someone has a problem with that, well, that's THEIR problem and their opinion, and they're welcome to it. As vendors sometimes taking a stance or stating an opinion strongly tends to be a little more polarizing, because 1) it's usually disseminated to more people and thus discussed more, and 2) it kind of puts people into the position of either "supporting" that particular position if they do business with that vendor, or "opposing" it by not doing business with them. Probably most people couldn't care less, either agree or disagree somewhat with the vendors position or flat out could care less and are only looking for product, BUT for some folks it comes down to a "I will/will not buy from this person because I do/don't want to support that position." As a vendor, that would tend to hurt sales I would think... though of course maybe you gain more than you lose, depending on the position and popular opinion...

At any rate, it's also true that just because one is vendor doesn't mean one has to surrender all their opinions-- they're equally entitled to them as any of us. BUT, it's probably wise to be cautious or thoughtful about how one states their opinions, so that folks don't get "the wrong idea" and take things the wrong way and alienate potential customers due to simple gaffes and misunderstandings, or being too vociferous in stating one's opinions or positions... And if one wants to be highly vocal in their opinions, well, they'd better be prepared to lose some sales, because it's pretty obvious that whatever the position, there's going to be some folks around who disagree about it just as strongly...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Just to make this more involved . What about bombs,missiles and real rockets and craft ?
Like I will be doing a 1/2 scale cbu 97 . Estes had or has the blu-97 there the same. Thing well the blu is the bomblets the cbu has onboard . But the estes kit is not in scale its off . For all this scale stuff its sometimes scratch built and I dont think ( I can be thinking wrong ) you would need to buy a kit . Due to you designing from reports , old pictures and other data that you have collected .

IMHO you're building a copy of the military version, which Estes has also built a copy of... You're entitled to build your own copy, and let Estes build theirs... you're not behooven to buy Estes' version of their copy of the military original.

Later! OL JR :)
 
I can understand and even respect Art Applewhite's principles on the cloning issue. It his presentation of it on his website that is a little off. Sorry Art... you can only "copyright" written and recorded media. To protect your designs you need a "patent" and you are only going to be able to get a valid patent with a new and original design. Saucer and spool rockets have been around far longer than yours. Now those spinny copter things.. probably.. but you actually need to file a patent.. not just say they are protected and copyrighted...

The whole safety issue on upscaling, though valid, is off topic here...

I am quite amused with how hot this topic seems to be!

Jerome :pop:


P.S.

For marketing on a website, you might want to consider that "implying" eternal hell and damnation for committing an immoral and sinful act probably isn't your best choice.... just saying... :confused2:
 
Something that nobody has brought up yet is when you " clone" a rocket, do you call it by the same name as the original? Most people do. To me, I think of it as a form of flattery or free advertisement. The reason I say this is because a few years ago I cloned something from Art's website and I used the same name as his. I'll just say he was not happy that I used the same name. So is cloning ethical if you don't call it by the same name?
 
Ya not sure I agree with the whole cloning debate here, any time you build a scratch 3FNC you run the risk of coping someones design on purpose or not, and Art's saucer/spool issue, any one know who built the first one? Are you sure, is there a patent? So wait I cant build a tube fin rocket now?

Any rocket or missile developed by a country is fair game no matter what rocket company makes a kit, unless they bought the rights on own the design I don't want to hear it.

I'm not going to look over my shoulder every time I want to clone or scratch out a rocket, first I will look for a kit because its normally cheaper and i'm lazy, but if what I want is not available is the size I want, i'm going to build it. Once again some are making a bigger deal out of an issue than it really is. :facepalm:


TA
 
I hear you brother . I scratch build . If a kit is not in the size I want I build it . Use if you build a rocket it can be taken it was a design for one of the company's . No it's not mine is built different ,fin thickness is changed ,it is now ttw . And different length of motor mount .
 
Wow! We're bashing Art? Where do I get in line?

I'll say this about Art Applewhite, the fella does an awful lot for model rocketry and he does get around to all of the local launches. In Texas local can mean driving four or five hours to the launch and then four or five hours back home. Art is a really sweet guy deep down inside, nothing like JAL who's mean as a rattlesnake inside and out ;-)
 
Wow! We're bashing Art? Where do I get in line?

I'll say this about Art Applewhite, the fella does an awful lot for model rocketry and he does get around to all of the local launches. In Texas local can mean driving four or five hours to the launch and then four or five hours back home. Art is a really sweet guy deep down inside, nothing like JAL who's mean as a rattlesnake inside and out ;-)

May an unbalanced and truly frightening mathematician do a number on you!
 
Several of my rockets are clones, either from existing kits (Leviathan to a Big Daddy) or totally scratch built reproductions of kits long gone (Canaroc). Some are current kits that I had bought but were damaged or destroyed thru a CATO or other unfortunate mishap and I happened to have the right parts to make another.

I have no problems with clones. Somebody still took the time to build it. Sometimes imitation is the ultimate form of flattery.


Tales of deeds shouted out from thee pocket parrot iPhone on th' seas of rocketry forum!
 
I hate paint.
I hate sanding.
I hate fibreglass
I hate epoxy.
I hate assembling reloads.
I hate having a license.
I hate certifying.
I hate waivers.
I hate people who hate other people....oh wait.
Why the heck am I this hobby anyway?
Because I love flying rockets and meeting other people who do the same.
We CAN all get along.
Except for Ted- he doesn't like ANYBODY!
 
I hate paint.
I hate sanding.
I hate fibreglass
I hate epoxy.
I hate assembling reloads.
I hate having a license.
I hate certifying.
I hate waivers.
I hate people who hate other people....oh wait.
Why the heck am I this hobby anyway?
Because I love flying rockets and meeting other people who do the same.
We CAN all get along.
Except for Ted- he doesn't like ANYBODY!



Word!

But what's up with Ted? :)




Tales of deeds shouted out from thee pocket parrot iPhone on th' seas of rocketry forum!
 
I hate paint.
I hate sanding.
I hate fibreglass
I hate epoxy.
I hate assembling reloads.
I hate having a license.
I hate certifying.
I hate waivers.
I hate people who hate other people....oh wait.
Why the heck am I this hobby anyway?
Because I love flying rockets and meeting other people who do the same.
We CAN all get along.
Except for Ted- he doesn't like ANYBODY!

Rocketry isn't the hobby, complaining is the hobby. Rocketry is just the thing we do so we have a common reference point. :wink:
 
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