Estes Red Alert

[JAL3]

Next week, my club is going to have an informal 13mm duration competition. I never win these things but do like to take part. With only a week to go, I realized that I didn't have anything ready to enter and started looking through the inventory. I found the Red Alert. It seemed light and would go pretty high on an A despite the draggy nose cone. Besides, it was near the front of one of the pegs and that made it easy to choose since I recently reorganized and hung everything up.

The Red Alert comes with a streamer and I like streamers but for this one, I will probably try to stuff a parachute in it to get the maximum hang time.

Construction on this one started out by coupling the 2 BT5 tubes. There was a longer one and a shorter one and they were joined with an insert coupler and yellow glue.

 

[JAL3]

The motor mount came next. The coupler for the 2 tubes acts as a thrust ring and a slit was cut just aft of it to accept the engine hook. A plastic band was then slipped around the tube and the hook to hold it in place and was secured with yellow glue.

 

[JAL3]

The three fins came on a die cut balsa sheet. The cut lines were so fine that I had a very difficult time even seeing them. I found them by gently flexing the balsa and looking for the cracks to open up. I would then give the lines a little encouragement with and X-acto and do it again. Eventually I got them out.

The fins were stacked and sanded and then the leading, outer and trailing edges were sanded round. A slot to fit around the engine hook band also had to be filed.

 

[JAL3]

Unlike the fins, the launch lug standoff is not provided as die cut. Instead, I was instructed to cut two pieces of scrap to the given dimensions and glue them together. I stacked and sanded them first and then put them together with yellow glue. They will need to be made uniform after they dry.

 

[JAL3]

The distinctive nosecone needed only to have the eyscrew inserted and glued into place.

 

[Fred]

John that rocket looks to be going together in first rate fashion Inspired by your many build threads ,and I got a few hours away from work, I stared to work on a Zooch Soyuz and a Red River Stratos
Cheers
Fred

 

[JAL3]

The kit comes with a wrap around fin marking guide. It was used to transfer fin, engine hook and launch lug lines to the BT and then the lines were extended. The fins were glued in place using a double glue joint and yellow glue.

 

[gpoehlein]

Not bad, John (I mean the rocket - your build threads, including this one, and your modeling are all excellent), but I'm just afraid you'll have a tough time getting a chute out of that BT-5 tube.

Here's a suggestion if you have the build time:

Take an Estes Wizard - it has an 18mm tube which is big enough to get a decent chute into. You're gonna want to do a few mods as you build it:

1) put a 13mm motor mount in it. Make sure the motor mount sticks out the back of the rocket by 1/2". Put an engine block in so the motor will stick out of the aft of the rocket by 1/4".

2) Make a 1/2" long boat-tail from cardstock, transitioning down to the BT-5. Glue that in place. (If you need a transition, give a holler here and I'll draw one up for you. This step is optional - you could just leave it off and mount the motor mount flush with the bottom if pressed for time. You'll get more base drag and less altitude, but the larger chute you can pack in the BT-20 tube will more than offset the loss of altitude.

3) Do NOT use the Estes shock cord mount. If you have some Kevlar thread, use that instead - if not, use nylon string - it will work in a pinch. Glue the shock cord thread to the base of one fin. You will need to file a small grove in the nose cone shoulder so the shock cord can loop around the front of the BT and inside to the parachute. The slightly extra drag from the external shock cord is offset by keeping the inside of the tube smooth. Not only is there no shock cord mount to catch the chute on, but the rocket will hang sideways on the way down, creating more drag and helping your hang time.

4) Find the thinnest, cheapest trash bags you can - .5 mil is good, .4 mil is even better. Make a hexagonal chute out of that - if you can find .4 mil bags, you should be able to fit an 18" chute in there.

If you can't put the shock cord outside, definitely mount it to the motor mount. You do NOT want to use an Estes mount in a parachute duration contest. Just remember, altitude is not nearly as important in a duration contest as chute size. If you can put a 13mm mount in a slightly stretched Baby Bertha, you can do better that with a minimum diameter model for the same motor. A 13mm motor mount in an Alpha would be even better than a Wizard, but you'd have to make a longer, wider transition.

Hope these ideas help. Good luck on your contest!

 

[Solomoriah]

You CAN get a chute to work in a BT-5, if you build it right.

First, you have to have the Kevlar-to-the-thrust-ring shock cord mount; anything glued to the sidewall guarantees failure.

Next, you need the right chute. Get some of that thin shroud line that Carl sells, and a cheap aluminized mylar (not aluminized polyester) emergency blanket. Make an 8" chute (no bigger), hexagon or square, and instead of tape discs use small squares of magic transparent (not cellophane) tape to secure the shroud lines.

You'll be surprised how small you can fold such a chute.

 

[RoyGreen]

Next, you need the right chute. Get some of that thin shroud line that Carl sells, and a cheap aluminized mylar (not aluminized polyester) emergency blanket.

Just pointing out that "Mylar" is just a brand name of a particular type of polyester (biaxially oriented polyethylene terephthalate).

 

[JAL3]

John that rocket looks to be going together in first rate fashion Inspired by your many build threads ,and I got a few hours away from work, I stared to work on a Zooch Soyuz and a Red River Stratos
Cheers
Fred

I'd be interested in seeing both of those, particularly the Soyuz. I always liked the look of the Soviet harware but it's that same look which seems to say, "you're not ready for this yet". I've had a Cosmodrome Soyuz sitting in the box for more than a year and, when I look at it, it screams something to the effect of "In your dreams! " I then go back to the nice, safe nFC's and start working my way up again.

 

[JAL3]

Not bad, John (I mean the rocket - your build threads, including this one, and your modeling are all excellent), but I'm just afraid you'll have a tough time getting a chute out of that BT-5 tube.

Here's a suggestion if you have the build time:

Take an Estes Wizard - it has an 18mm tube which is big enough to get a decent chute into. You're gonna want to do a few mods as you build it:

1) put a 13mm motor mount in it. Make sure the motor mount sticks out the back of the rocket by 1/2". Put an engine block in so the motor will stick out of the aft of the rocket by 1/4".

2) Make a 1/2" long boat-tail from cardstock, transitioning down to the BT-5. Glue that in place. (If you need a transition, give a holler here and I'll draw one up for you. This step is optional - you could just leave it off and mount the motor mount flush with the bottom if pressed for time. You'll get more base drag and less altitude, but the larger chute you can pack in the BT-20 tube will more than offset the loss of altitude.

3) Do NOT use the Estes shock cord mount. If you have some Kevlar thread, use that instead - if not, use nylon string - it will work in a pinch. Glue the shock cord thread to the base of one fin. You will need to file a small grove in the nose cone shoulder so the shock cord can loop around the front of the BT and inside to the parachute. The slightly extra drag from the external shock cord is offset by keeping the inside of the tube smooth. Not only is there no shock cord mount to catch the chute on, but the rocket will hang sideways on the way down, creating more drag and helping your hang time.

4) Find the thinnest, cheapest trash bags you can - .5 mil is good, .4 mil is even better. Make a hexagonal chute out of that - if you can find .4 mil bags, you should be able to fit an 18" chute in there.

If you can't put the shock cord outside, definitely mount it to the motor mount. You do NOT want to use an Estes mount in a parachute duration contest. Just remember, altitude is not nearly as important in a duration contest as chute size. If you can put a 13mm mount in a slightly stretched Baby Bertha, you can do better that with a minimum diameter model for the same motor. A 13mm motor mount in an Alpha would be even better than a Wizard, but you'd have to make a longer, wider transition.

Hope these ideas help. Good luck on your contest!

I appreciate the advice. I am going to be pinched for build time. I have a few that I want to get finished up and a few that need repairs which are at the top of the list. That coupled with trying to get transitioned to a new church building sucks up the time like nobody's business.

I am aware of the difficulty of packing anything in a BT5 because I've proven time and again that I'm not all that good at it. There were two options I was considering for this one. The first is to put together the Zooch trashbag chute from the LJ I am working on and seeing if I can make that fit. I'm also thinking about using some of that plastic wrap that comes over the dry cleaning. The guy in our club who routinely wins the competitive events is fond of that stuff and he packs incredibly large chutes into miniscule places. Mostly it will boil down to what's handy as the time crunch gets more severe.

I routinely throw away the elastic bands that come with Estes kits and I detest trifolds. I usually use Kevlar to sewing elastic and mount to the motor mount. I did build an ASP streamer duration model that has the external Kevlar glued to a fin so I know what you're talking about. I may give that a try.

I don't really expect to win but I want to do the best I can consistent with still enjoying the process: if it ever becomes a chore then I will be doomed by SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED AND WHO DOESN"T SEE THE POINT OF THE ROCKETS ANYWAY.

Thanks again,

 

[JAL3]

You CAN get a chute to work in a BT-5, if you build it right.
.

Me? Build it right? We are deep into fantasy land now!

I have thought about the mylar and know I have some stashed somewhere if I can sweet talk my wife into telling me where she hid it after I let it sit on the counter past the customary 3 warinings (I could swear I only got 2).

I normally build shock mounts such as you describe...except in minimum diameter cases. There I am at a loss. On this rocket, the motor mount is now glued together and access would be difficult. I had not thought of the external rig such as described above but now think it might be the way to go. I still have a little while until I have to commit.

 

[Fred]

I'd be interested in seeing both of those, particularly the Soyuz. I always liked the look of the Soviet harware but it's that same look which seems to say, "you're not ready for this yet". I've had a Cosmodrome Soyuz sitting in the box for more than a year and, when I look at it, it screams something to the effect of "In your dreams! " I then go back to the nice, safe nFC's and start working my way up again.

My finishes could use some some work man but at 15 feet it's all good That cosmodrome Soyuz is a first rate kit so I know you will enjoy it Your building skills are coming along nicely man so go hard
Cheers
fred

 

[JAL3]

My finishes could use some some work man but at 15 feet it's all good That cosmodrome Soyuz is a first rate kit so I know you will enjoy it Your building skills are coming along nicely man so go hard
Cheers
fred

Thanks again and I do agree. I really believe I have shown more improvement here in the last year as a BAR than I did in 6 years as a kid.

One of these day...

 

[JAL3]

After the fins were in place, the filleting process began. That gave me time to work on a few other things. As I mentioned above, the launch lug standoff was laminated together with 2 pieces of scrap. When it had dried, I sanded it square and then glued on the lug.

 

[JAL3]

When the lug was safely glued to the standoff, I glued the standoff to the BT along the line given by the marking guide.

 

[JAL3]

Based on some advice from TRF and my experience with the ASP Hangtime, I decided to use an external shock cord. Accordingly, a length of Kevlar was glued into the root edge of one of the fillets.

 

[JAL3]

I test fit everything together and then started applying balsa fillercoat. The rocket took only to coats before being judged ready for sanding.

 

[mjennings]

I had a red alert once, it was one of my first rockets, Dad and I went up to the school ward on a wintery night, (near my B-day in late Feb most likely). It was twilight, pushed the button and watched it take off all sparky like and never saw it again. Think I had a temp cycle engine failure in retrospect. Still a good looking rocket, hope she does well for you in the contest.

 

[JAL3]

I had a red alert once, it was one of my first rockets, Dad and I went up to the school ward on a wintery night, (near my B-day in late Feb most likely). It was twilight, pushed the button and watched it take off all sparky like and never saw it again. Think I had a temp cycle engine failure in retrospect. Still a good looking rocket, hope she does well for you in the contest.

Thanks. I'm hoping for the best. I don't expect to win but I would like to give our traditional winner a reason to pay attention, if not worry. I've seen his design: I'm counting on a thermal now.

 

[rokitflite]

This design has always puzzled me. The nose cone is just so funky that I can't help but wonder if it was designed for something that never came to be. Or if when entering some calculations for its shape, some engineer forgot to carry the 1 or something... Very odd. Nice build, and best of luck in the contest!!!

 

[JAL3]

This design has always puzzled me. The nose cone is just so funky that I can't help but wonder if it was designed for something that never came to be. Or if when entering some calculations for its shape, some engineer forgot to carry the 1 or something... Very odd. Nice build, and best of luck in the contest!!!

I see what you mean about the nose. It just looks...weird. I like that. Weird is good. My life is the story of weird gone bad.

Thanks for the wishes. We'll see on Saturday.

 

[GoBang]

Great to see a build thread on this, as I have one, still in the package. I'm looking forward to building it. I also have a 13mm two-stager of which I don't recall the name, got them from the same source.

I am enjoying the tips, keep 'em coming!

 

[JAL3]

Great to see a build thread on this, as I have one, still in the package. I'm looking forward to building it. I also have a 13mm two-stager of which I don't recall the name, got them from the same source.

I am enjoying the tips, keep 'em coming!

Do you mean the Mini Cobra like the one in the pic below?

I got it from the same source as my Red Alert and then scambled around looking for 13mm booster motors only to realize that I could not fly them at my NAR section, about the only flying opportunity I ever get.

 

[GoBang]

Yup, I believe that's it, I think. I got a boxful of stuff from someone on FreeCycle and they were both in it, along with some other choice bits, some already built but most not. One is a Little Joe II I am looking forward to.

I imagine Estes doesn't make 13mm boosters anymore, so I may have to just keep the M-C as a display piece, or just fly it single-stage.

 

[JAL3]

Yup, I believe that's it, I think. I got a boxful of stuff from someone on FreeCycle and they were both in it, along with some other choice bits, some already built but most not. One is a Little Joe II I am looking forward to.

I imagine Estes doesn't make 13mm boosters anymore, so I may have to just keep the M-C as a display piece, or just fly it single-stage.

As of out 5 months ago, there were still some places that had A3-0 and A10-0. I bought a lot at that time and do plan to fly them. I just can't do it at my normal venue.

I do head out to an Amateur Rocketeers of Texas launch occasionally where I can fly them but that sites closed down until after hunting season.

 

[roy_lappalainen]

As of out 5 months ago, there were still some places that had A3-0 and A10-0. I bought a lot at that time and do plan to fly them. I just can't do it at my normal venue.

Why can't you fly them at your NAR venue? If it is because the motors are OOP? If so, ask the sponsor to participate in the OOP testing program or allow you to do so. I tried to find the info for you on the NAR site but couldn't find it.

Micromeister handles this for our club. (NARHAMS)

 

[JAL3]

Why can't you fly them at your NAR venue? If it is because the motors are OOP? If so, ask the sponsor to participate in the OOP testing program or allow you to do so. I tried to find the info for you on the NAR site but couldn't find it.

Micromeister handles this for our club. (NARHAMS)

I've got the info on that program and we probably will participate in it at some point but have not done so yet, mainly because nobody, including me, has taken the trouble to jump through the hoops. Ours is not a large section and there is a good chance that I would be the only one who needs the "cover" and, as yet, the rocket that needs it has not yet been built.

One of these days...

 

[JAL3]

The sanding was rudimentary and then the rocket was primed with Kilz. Another sanding saw it ready for being painted red. I put tape on the Kevlar to keep it from getting painted and then set it up in the booth and shot it with Rust-o-leum Red. A day later, I gave it another coat of red and, when it was dry, peeled the tape off of the shock cord. After that, there was just a simple, single holographic sticker to apply.

The original purpose of the sticker was to hold the rubber shock cord after it had been fed through a slit in the BT. I used mine just for decoration.