Estes Citation Patriot

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K'Tesh

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Would you believe... The .ork file is too large for the forum... I'm gonna have to rethink things on how to get it uploaded.

Some points to make about the ork (when I do get it uploaded). The eagles on the booster's black fin are the same scale as the ones on the body tube, trimmed with a ~1mm gold border. If a second kit's decals were sacrificed to make the fin decals, one eagle will be facing the body tube, and the other won't. If I were getting custom decals made, I would insist on getting one mirrored so they both face out from the body tube. Also, if the original kit is one of the older reissue kits, the Estes Logo will be on over the final "T" on both sides of the fin. Later reissued kits will have the logo over the "P" on one fin, and "T" on the other.
 
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neil_w

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To do a cluster in OR: for the motor mount, there's a cluster tab:
upload_2019-8-12_21-52-23.png


Would you believe... The .ork file is too large for the forum... I'm gonna have to rethink things on how to get it uploaded.
The decal files shouldn't be that huge I would think. What DPI are you using? What image format?
 

Bruiser

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K'Tesh,

I did use your OR file from the plans forum as a basis for what I was planning. You have a lot of "advance stuff" in there that I have no idea of how you did them. I can believe the file is pretty big :)

Neil,

I did find the cluster tab and I choose it but nothing seemed to happen. I'll have to try it again and give a proper debrief. My memory just isn't to good.

I have the fin plates attached and am waiting for the glue to dry some before I spray the first coat of filler/primer on.

-Bob
 

K'Tesh

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Hi Neil,

To answer your question... "Metalic" decals make the .png files pretty large. It didn't help that they were 300 DPI, I'm trying to cut them down to 150 DPI to see if that fixes things.

Bob... Thanks. The booster section for my two stage payload version was based on the Semroc Omega (KV-64) kit. In fact, if it wasn't for the limitations of OR to do the custom Semroc CRs (vented), it'd be identical, save for the fins.
 

neil_w

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To answer your question... "Metalic" decals make the .png files pretty large. It didn't help that they were 300 DPI, I'm trying to cut them down to 150 DPI to see if that fixes things.
Ah yes, 300 DPI metallic files will do it. I normally do my OR decals at 100 DPI, then redo them at 300 DPI for printing. Dropping to 150 DPI will help a lot as far as your file size goes.
 

Red7Fifty

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I just finished a Patriot build (1 of 3 that I am building, an XL with 2nd body tube, E-Powered, and Stock). The decals are very tacky...don't slide around much. I realized that on the first decal. I then wiped the surface down with a wet paper towel several times before apply the remaining decals. That helped small positioning alignment, but still, they grab sooner than expected. I might have to resort to a drop of dish soap in the pre-wet wipe.
 

Bruiser

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I had no idea that decals would stretch and if stretched to far, rip.

I did not have a dish to soak the decal in so I wet the back down with a spray bottle. I am pretty sure most of my issues came with not having the decal wet enough.

The build of the booster is coming along. The fin plates are on and I sprayed a coat of filler/primer on. I sanded off the fuzzies and wanted to spray another coat of primer on but I was out. I ran into WalMart on my lunch break and bought a can of primer. It wasn't until I went to use it that I realized I had bought primer/sealer. Having no experience with it, I plan on exchanging it for the right primer. I had a can of white primer so I sprayed it with that. I also managed to get the rivets on.

On a side note, I looked for Krylon Crystal Clear gloss but I did not see any. All I saw in stock was matte so I will have to go somewhere else for that. I realized today that I need to do something to protect those decals from the desert sand.

-Bob
 

Bruiser

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So this time when I changed the inner tube to a cluster it worked great. Here are the OR sim results for sustainer only.

D12-5 897 feet
3-C6-5 1147 feet
E12-6 1309

-Bob
 

K'Tesh

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On a side note, I looked for Krylon Crystal Clear gloss but I did not see any. All I saw in stock was matte so I will have to go somewhere else for that. I realized today that I need to do something to protect those decals from the desert sand.

-Bob
I haven't applied waterslide decals for years, but one thing that I've heard/seen are the horror stories of rockets "Ready to Go!" that are getting the clear coat and then get a horrible case of rocket herpes. For that reason, my plan is to use whatever the hell Future floor polish is calling itself these days.
 

Bruiser

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The booster is in gloss white now :) Time to wait...

Booster White.jpg


I've used the Krylon clears for years on R/C aircraft. The trick there was a dust coat followed by light coats. I used the satin over the Duplicolor Color Match paints I used on my first BAR rocket (the IQSY Tomahawk) and had no issues. I have not tried any over Rustoleum 2X or Estes decals yet.

I did look into the Rustoleum clears but could not find anyone that actually used them on a rocket. There were a few threads were people planned to use them and then changed their minds.

I have seen several threads about Future wax being used. Never tried that either and have not studied up on the process.

I'm gonna have to think on this a little more...

Something else I need to think on is what do I build next :)

-Bob
 

neil_w

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Remember also that you do not *need* a clear coat.

From personal experience, Krylon UV resistant clear absolutely works fine over 2x. Future works fine over most anything (preferable non porous)
 

Red7Fifty

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I'm using Rustoleum clear.....I like it. Just MAKE SURE it either goes on while the color coat is still tacky, or SEVERAL days later (more if the color coat is thick). Otherwise, you will get a wrinkle finish. The can says clear coat within 1 hour, or after 48. I say, clear coat in 30 min, or after 1 week.
 

Red7Fifty

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The Rustoleum Clear worked well to seal up the Estes decals also.
 

Bruiser

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Hey Neil,
The decals seem delicate, that's why I was thinking a clear coat is needed. It's desert here and almost always breezy on launch day :) so the rocket get dragged across sand paper until you catch up to it. It's hard to refrain from running out there to catch it but that seems to be frowned upon here. Besides I wouldn't want anybody shooting a video of me running and having it show up as a "funny video" on YouTube :)

Red7Fifty,
Thanks for that info. From your report it sounds very similar to the other 2X products concerning dry times, recoat times, etc. Also good to know there's no reaction with the decals.

-Bob
 

Red7Fifty

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Also, helps keep them from peeling off in flight if the decal glue gets week.
As far as running video on youtube....if it's funny enough, and gets a million views, you could make a few bucks.....that could go towards a new rocket. The other night, I was gluing the motor block into another Patriot build...the spacer block went in 1/4" further than planned (next time, I will wrap a tape ring around the spacer block so it doesn't push in too far). As wanting the build to come out "Text Book", and knowing the block, engine hook, spacing is F'ed up....I had to immediately place another order (thanks AC Supply) before going to bed. And, to get the free shipping, add another Saturn V......and..........
I'll post an old video......and drop the link here. No need to start a whole another blog......if you don't mind. I also have a few build tips.....can I share those also?
 

Red7Fifty

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In the past, I've tried thinned wood filler, Bondo glazing putty, and lightweight filler to fill tube spirals....all have been a PITA to sand off the excess and make smooth (except the lightweight doesn't stick to narrow groves). Recently, I thought to try something else. Cutting strips of paper, and cutting my 1" making tape in half, I masked off the body tube, leaving only the spiral exposed. Two coats of Rustoleum 2X primer, and remove the mask, let dry (it shrinks a little) then sand smooth. Much quicker process, less tedious, and a better finish. Make a styrofoam sanding block with medium/fine paper. Making Rocket Building Fun Again! :)
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GlenP

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I have thought about just spraying some primer/paint into a cup and using a fine brush along the tube spiral. Haven’t tried it yet.
 

Bruiser

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Hmmn, that is interesting. I use thinned cwf and it doesn't take me too long to sand it off. Of course I have fuzzies on the tube with the first coat of primer but they sand right off too.

So if the primer is thick enough to fill the spirals then there must be a lip when you pull off the tape that needs to be sanded so it seems I'm either sanding primer or cwf…

-Bob
 

Bruiser

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So it's been a little while for a progress report so let me bring you'll up to date. I sprayed it with Krylon UV-Resistant Gloss Clear and it went on good. I sprayed a dust coat, followed by a light coat then a nice full coat pausing slightly between each coat. I had no reactions and it looks nice.


If you didn't notice in post 40, I painted the booster white before I remembered to drill the vent holes. I decided to drill them right above the fins with my Dremel and then touched them up with white paint. It actually looked fine. Then I put the rocket on the booster and I realized the vent hole were aimed right at the upper stage fins. I decided that I would just rotate the sustainer 60 degrees when I launched it. The next day I realized I can't do that because a fin would be the way of the launch lugs. So I drilled three more holes and blocked the initial three. Well, I didn't like the looks of that so I filled the original holes with cwf and repainted the white. Now it is all good to go :)

Ready for next months launch
Two Stage Done.jpg


-Bob
 

K'Tesh

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NICE WORK!!!

Now, don't kill me. The Semroc Omega uses vented centering rings (CR-KV-64). So, the gasses escape by traveling down between the body tube and the booster's motor tube. Mine uses those CRs.

Where did you score the booster's decals? A second donor rocket, or from a 3rd Party?

You going to do the payload section?
 
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Red7Fifty

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I like it....the Eagle on the Booster fin is a nice touch.
BTW, on the can of Rust-Oleum Clear, it says "Recoat anytime".....WRONG........I tried that, same results as other topcoat, will wrinkle the undercoat if it's not wet or completely dry....anything in between, will attack it. On the otherhand, I have a few cool wrinkle finish rockets now.
 

Bruiser

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K'Tesh,

Thank you :)

The Semroc Omega uses vented centering rings
Well now you tell me! Naw, I did some new things on this rocket such as the changeable motor mount and the decals. Oh, and I didn't paper the fins. Just changed them to basswood, primed a few times and sanded. I just stuck with something I knew for the vents :)

Where did you score the booster's decals?
Another kit. I wish I would have left a gold border around the eagle when I cut it out. I think the gold would have really kicked it off.

You going to do the payload section?
Well stage one was building the Citation Patriot. Stage two was literally stage 2. Stage three was going to be the interchangeable payload bay with JLCR (another reason for the second kit for the body tube and nose cone) but one of the site enablers (or should that be trouble makers?) got me thinking about staging a cluster to a cluster...

RedtFifty,

The eagle on the fin was K'tesh's idea. You can see his OR files and renderings here https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/kteshs-openrocket-files.123564/#post-1435001 starting with post 26

I think I will be sticking with the Krylon clear. I've never had a problem with it and like the results.

Now it's on to the testing stage. First a D12 launch, followed by a cluster launch, then a E12 launch and finished off with a D12 to D12 launch. Further testing will depend on if I get it back from test number four. I wish there was somewhere local I could get some C11 engines from. Maybe test 3 and 4 should wait for the payload bay and a chute release :) Christmas is just so far off...

-Bob
 

K'Tesh

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When I first came up with the idea of a two stage Patriot, I noticed that the booster's black fin looked like it was missing something. That was what inspired the eagles on that fin. The only problem with using eagles from a donor kit is that one will face away from the body tube, and the other will face towards it. Years ago (before the 2018 reissue), I had commissioned a set of decals (from a vendor which I now would not recommend (even if he was still in business)) that included the gold trim... However, he trimmed the eyes in gold too (which looked bizarre). I'm thinking about trying again with Tango Papa, or Stickershock but I don't know if they can match the red, gold, and blue. I might have to go with a donor set of decals. I'm still waiting for evidence that the current runs of the Patriot have the corrected fin decals (with the logos in the right places).

Oh... For a more patriotic rocket (if it isn't already patriotic enough) is to make a parachute using a mylar flag balloon from a dollar store.
 
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Bruiser

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My two kits were just purchased a few weeks ago from Hobby Lobby. The week before the only BT60 based rocket they had was a Big Bertha. I went down there to buy the Big Bertha to do the removable mount conversion to but it was gone and the Patriots were there. Point being, these Patriot kits are new kits unless they've been sitting in a Hobby Lobby warehouse...

-Bob
 

K'Tesh

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My two kits were just purchased a few weeks ago from Hobby Lobby. The week before the only BT60 based rocket they had was a Big Bertha. I went down there to buy the Big Bertha to do the removable mount conversion to but it was gone and the Patriots were there. Point being, these Patriot kits are new kits unless they've been sitting in a Hobby Lobby warehouse...

-Bob
So, can you answer these questions... On the fin decals, are they identical (with the logo over the final "T"), or does one have the logo over the final "T" and one over "PaT" of "Patriot"? If the answer is "Yes" to the latter, what is the kitting date (the embossed number in the decal sheet). I've got two of the "former", but I need the latter to make my collection complete for the Citation Patriot versions.
 

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I will take a look for you tomorrow. I don't remember how they were. At first I wasn't going to put the Estes logo on and I did not cut them out of the sheet. Later I decided why not and I placed them above "Patriot" near the body tube.

-Bob
 

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The date is 11/26/18

Here is what they look like
Logo.jpg


-Bob
 

GlenP

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I think the initial run of the rereleased kits had the Patriot/Estes logo identical, but that was a mistake. The Estes logo in the originals goes on the root side of the fin, so you need to have different placement of the Estes over the P or over the T side of the Patriot logo. This was noted on an early build thread when the kit was rereleased, and Estes may have corrected it by now, but there may be some kits out there still with the misprint.

You can always cut the logo off and apply it on the correct side on the root side of the fin, otherwise it might not fit at the tip.

New Estes Patriot Citation Build


PS - I agree with you in that I think the Eagle on the booster fin should be looking away from the body tube on both sides of the fin also, so that would require a mirror image for one of them. Just looks more like the Eagle is on the lookout rather than being introspective looking at the body booster tube. And why not paint that one booster fin totally gold?
 
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