Estes Citation Patriot

Discussion in 'Low Power Rocketry (LPR)' started by Bruiser, Jul 31, 2019.

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  1. Jul 31, 2019 #1

    Bruiser

    Bruiser

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    I am starting a build of said rocket, but as with all my builds this will not be done per the instructions. I will be building it with a removable engine mount so I can have a choice of powering it with a single 24mm motor or a cluster of 18mm motors.

    I got the idea from Chris Michielssen's blog here: https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/search?q=centurion I also studied some other Semroc designs that featured removable engine mounts so you can say the design I am using is definitely Semroc inspired.

    Earlier today I applied cwf to the body tube and I cut out the slots for the ttw fins. They are not your typical ttw fins as they are not glued to the motor mount tube. They go thru the wall and engage the centering rings on the motor mount tube to hold the motor mount in the rocket. I didn't feel balsa would be up to that task so I cut out some basswood fins.

    I also started cutting out some ply centering rings for the 24mm mount. I still need to open up the inside for the ST-9 motor tube.

    Once I get the parts finished up I'll post some pictures.

    -Bob
     
  2. Jul 31, 2019 #2

    K'Tesh

    K'Tesh

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    Hi Bob...

    Sorry about not getting back to you on this.

    I've been slammed at work. I'm doing 3 weeks of classes in one due to Chinese holidays and school schedules.

    I'm at work now so I can't really help you out for while.

    To answer your question about the 2 stage version I did... It is based on the Semroc Omega's booster, with the Patriots booster fins upscaled 115% from the sustainer's fins. The fin's eagle decal is the same size as the body tube wrap.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  3. Jul 31, 2019 #3

    Bruiser

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    No worries my friend. I figured you'd reply when you had some time.

    Was the booster fin enlargement mainly for looks? I did an OR file for the rocket as a:
    1) Single stage with a C6 or D12
    2) Single stage payload with a C6 or D12
    3) Two stage with a D12 or E12 booster and a C6 sustainer
    4) Two stage payload with a D12 or E12 booster and a C6 sustainer

    For the booster I used the same size fins and it all simmed out fine. I don't remember how many calibers of stability but there was no issue.

    I also wanted to ask you about the 5.5 inch payload. Was that enough room? This rocket can get some altitude with the E12/C6 option so I was thinking dual deploy might be something to look into. Is 5.5 inches gonna be enough room?

    Thanks,
    -Bob
     
  4. Jul 31, 2019 #4

    Bruiser

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    Here are my fins and centering rings ready to go. They are a product of my table saw, Dremel tool and a small file. The fins are basswood. I had to change from balsa because of the way the motor mount locks in to them. I did modify my OR file to make sure the extra weight of the basswood would be ok and there rocket handled it just fine. The upper and lower centering rings are 1/16th ply while the mid centering ring is 1/8 ply simply because it was easier for me to make 1/8th inch slots than 1/16th :)

    Fins and Centering Rings.jpg

    I am doing a new body tube. I somehow cut the fin slots a little too wide on the one I did yesterday. I have the new tube covered in cwf and am waiting for it to dry so I can sand it smooth and then slot it.

    Bob

    -Bob
     
  5. Aug 1, 2019 #5

    K'Tesh

    K'Tesh

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    The fins looked better with the upscale and it allows the eagle decal to be applied full scale.

    The payload section is based on the Estes Magnum's dimensions. Again.. added for aesthetic reasons.
     
  6. Aug 5, 2019 #6

    Bruiser

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    I have been working away with the build.

    CWF was applied to the spirals and the body tube sanded. I cut slots for the fins and got the size right this time :)

    I have the 24mm mount built. The centering rings are ply so they will hold up to taking the assembly in an out of the body tube. I've also installed the fins.

    This photo shows how it's all coming together
    Two Tubes.jpg


    This one shows how the mount works. Basically the top and middle rings has three notches that line up with the fin tabs. You slide the mount in until the bottom ring stops against the fin tab. Now the middle ring is aligned with the notches in the fin tabs. You simply turn the mount 60 degrees and it is in place.
    Mount Engagement.jpg


    Today I am working on the ejection baffle. Right now the epoxy is curing. I still need to drill a pilot hole and install the screw eye next.

    Hopefully the rocket will get it's first coat of primer today.

    -Bob

    BTW, Chris Michielssen built two mounts for his rocket, a single 24mm and a dual 18mm. That is what I intended to build as well but it won't work out because of this being a three fin rocket with ttw fins with a BT60 tube. I realize now that if only one fine was ttw or if the body tube was bigger it would have worked with a dual 18mm mount.

    With three ttw fins, the dual mount won't work because one of the motors will block one of the three notches for the fins. My choices now for another mount is either a cluster of three 18mm :) or a single 18mm.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
  7. Aug 6, 2019 #7

    Bruiser

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    I ran into a little hiccup today. I noticed my fins still wiggle. At first I thought it was the glue had not dried, but it is actually the tube that is allowing the fins to wiggle. I think this is because there are no centering rings glued inside the body tube. When you wiggle the fin you can see the body tube flexing back and forth. If the removable motor mount is installed the flexing is reduced.

    I thought that if I made the motor mount fit tighter maybe the flex would be reduced so I glued on a wrap of paper to the centering rings. I couldn't slide the mount in anymore so I ended up sanding the paper back off.

    Now I have added fin plates like on the Tomahawk sounding rocket to stiffen up the body tube. We'll see if it worked in the morning when the glue is all dry.

    -Bob
     
  8. Aug 6, 2019 #8

    Bruiser

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    Well the fin plates did the trick. I am back on track with the build :)

    Fin Can Plate On.jpg

    -Bob
     
  9. Aug 7, 2019 #9

    Scott_650

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    I like those fin plates - nifty solution that looks “scale-ish”.
     
  10. Aug 7, 2019 #10

    Bruiser

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    Thank you sir. I was looking for some type of "fix" that did not alter the original design too much. I came pretty close to putting a ring around the fins and that would have changed it too much.

    I got both launch lugs put back on today and the ejection baffle installed. I primered the whole rocket, sanded the fuzzies and got a second full coat of primer on. Tomorrow will be the final sanding of the gray filler primer. I'll have to decide if I am going to go straight to gloss white paint or spray on some white primer first.

    Oh, I sprayed the nose cone black again today for the third time. The first two got some dirt (or something) on them so I had to sand and try again. It looked good this time but I'll give it the full eval in the morning...

    -Bob
     
  11. Aug 7, 2019 #11

    Bruiser

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    I have it all sanded and ready for the next coat of paint.

    I have my rivets on the plates. I remembered to get a shot before the white glue dried. It's really hard to see afterwards.
    Fin Plate Rivets.jpg

    Now I have to decide whether to spray it with white primer or go straight to the gloss white paint... I am a little fearful of adding another step because if it goes wrong, the rivets will get wiped out sanding the primer off. With that in mind and knowing the Rustoleum 2X paints seem to have good coverage and it is going over a light gray I am going straight to the gloss white. Cross your fingers for me :)

    -Bob
     
  12. Aug 7, 2019 #12

    neil_w

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    Looks great, good luck.
     
  13. Aug 7, 2019 #13

    kuririn

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    Just a note of caution, you may want to read Chris' post on this thread re: Rusto 2X Gloss White:
    http://www.forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=18018&page=2
    (I'm not saying don't use it, just be aware)

    And for future reference, my experience is that white or yellow glue "puckers" when it dries. I wound up using something called puffy paint for rivets. It dries hard and doesn't shrink and pucker. See post #25 on this thread:
    https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/build-thread-apogee-flying-machine.147034/
    Cost was $1.48 for a small bottle at my local craft store.
    Very excited for your build, coming along nicely!
    Laters.
     
  14. Aug 7, 2019 #14

    mbeels

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    That plate does look really good. What material did you use, is that card stock? Great idea to make it a feature with rivets, I like it.
     
  15. Aug 7, 2019 #15

    Bruiser

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    I used 110lb card stock (i.e. poster board) from WalMart. I made it double thickness by laminating one piece between the fins and then laminating the top piece with the tabs over the first piece. I did it to stiffen the body tube because I had fin wobble (post 7) due to not have a centering ring glued in. It was the best of three choices I came up with because it doesn't really change the looks of the rocket and still allows for the original decals to be used. This is going to be my first rocket with decals so it was important for me not to mess that up.

    I've never heard of puffy paint. I'll ask about it next trip to Hobby Lobby.

    I swore off the brilliant Blue and the Winter Gray because of the same thing. I almost swore off the entire 2X line but I came to the conclusion that all the brands have issues now and then and that everyone's enamel takes forever to dry. I wanted to go lacquer but that's problematic finding a good assortment of colors in spray cans.

    I've used the Winter Gray again without issue but haven't dared use the Brilliant Blue. I haven't even touched that rocket since the issues with the paint...

    I've used the Gloss White before with out trouble and I just got done using it again without trouble. I changed my process by eliminating the wipe down with alcohol immediately prior to paint. Now I just use a tack cloth right before spraying. I also have a paper plate that I spray before I spray the part. That's my final litmus test that all is right before letting loose on the rocket.

    The Patriot is Gloss White now and I am off to twiddle my thumbs while the paint dries for two days. Then I can do the black fin and the paint work will be done :)

    -Bob
     
  16. Aug 7, 2019 #16

    neil_w

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    Suggestion: wait longer than 2 days.
     
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  17. Aug 7, 2019 #17

    K'Tesh

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    Nice work on the rivet detail. Gives it a kind of a sounding rocket vibe.

    I'd wait until I absolutely can't smell the paint anymore.
     
  18. Aug 7, 2019 #18

    neil_w

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    With the Rusto 2x that could literally be weeks or months. Just not practical.

    I usually like to give at least 4 days whenever possible.
     
  19. Aug 8, 2019 #19

    gldknght

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    I let my Rusto 2x paint jobs flash to the dust resistant stage, then set the project in front of a fan, or dehumidifier. The paint is sandable after 48 hours.

    I've also used their gloss white and brilliant blue paints repeatedly with no problems, but I always drop my rattle cans in a sink full of hot water for a few minutes, then shoot a half second of paint at something disposable before painting my project. Also if you are using rusto on plastic, always always always wash the plastic with dish soap (Dawn is preferred) and warm water prior to paint, then try to minimize handling. Rusto paint does NOT like mold release, oil, finger prints, etc.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2019
  20. Aug 8, 2019 #20

    Bruiser

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    I'm not a patient person in respect to letting paint dry. It's hard to go the two days for me.

    I just checked it this morning and it came out good. I found one little spec of something on it and that was it. I'm gonna set it aside while I work on the second engine mount today.
    Main Body White.jpg

    It's going to be a three 18mm cluster mount. This will be another "first" for me. Hope I do it right :)

    -Bob
     
  21. Aug 9, 2019 #21

    nosecone

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    Looking good so far. I like the fin plate thing.
     
  22. Aug 9, 2019 #22

    Bruiser

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    The three 18mm cluster is almost done. I just need to work in the glues fillets a bit too ensure I have a good bond. Here it is along side the single 24mm mount.
    Two Mounts.jpg


    Here it is installed in the rocket.
    3 Cluster Installed.jpg


    So what am I going to do today to keep me from trying to paint the fin on the main body...

    I think a booster will keep me busy for the day :) I looked over my stash of parts yesterday and realized I do not have any motor mount tubes left. I used the last one on the 24mm mount for the sustainer. Last night I swung by Hobby Lobby and bought a Generic EX2 kit so it could donate the body tube for use as a motor tube.

    BTW, I saw some of the new exclusive Hobby Lobby kits on Tuesday. They were still in the totes. They still weren't on the shelf when I went in last night but they had cleared a space for them. Maybe they will get them put out today.

    -Bob
     
  23. Aug 12, 2019 #23

    Bruiser

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    I made some headway on stage two today--literally. TTW fins are basswood and 24mm mount for "D" and "E" motors. Tomorrow I will start on the fin plates so it matches the Citation Patriot.
    Booster w Fins.jpg


    While parts were drying I took my first foray into decals. Lets say they are a lot harder than I remember them being on plastic models when I was a kid. I am grateful I bought two of the Citation Patriot kits because I needed a decal to replace one I destroyed.

    Patriot w Decals and Booster.jpg

    -Bob
     
  24. Aug 12, 2019 #24

    kuririn

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    Ah, so single engine booster igniting single or three engine cluster sustainer? Gap staged? Do you have vents near the sustainer engine nozzles?
    My Estes MIRV has a single engine booster/ 3x sustainer with a plastic triple blowby splitter directing the booster gasses into the sustainer nozzles. On its' maiden flight only one sustainer engine lit.
    Or do you plan on flying the cluster mount only on single stage flights?
     
  25. Aug 12, 2019 #25

    Bruiser

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    The cluster mount is for single stage flights.

    Boosted flights will be either D or E booster to D or E sustainer. I think if I go E to E I will need to either dual deploy or go with a chute release but that's "stage 3" of the project.

    I dont have vents yet but there will be three 1/4 inch holes for that. There is a 1 to 2 inch gap depending on if a D or E engine is used in the booster.

    Btw, you just gave me an idea... what if the booster was a cluster too??? What if each engine in the booster cluster lined up with each engine in the cluster mount of the sustainer? Would each sustainer engine light off? Hmmn...

    Bob
     
  26. Aug 12, 2019 #26

    K'Tesh

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    Okay... Now I've got to jump in again... Hmmm I'm guessing those booster fins are 115% larger than the sustainer's. Lemme get back to you on my sim.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
  27. Aug 12, 2019 #27

    Bruiser

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    You're a good guesser sir :)

    Bob
     
  28. Aug 12, 2019 #28

    kuririn

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    Yowzer, now you are getting REALLY ambitious! The US Rockets HiTest series has a 3X24mm booster/sustainer or 4X29mm pairing. Gap staging, vented slots. Sustainer engines nest (couple) into the booster motor tubes. No room for any recovery gear. And the HiTest 3100s' booster stage is heavy, coming down with 4 29mm expended casings in them.
    LOTS of things that can go wrong. But if you can get a successful flight from one, then you know that you have arrived.
    Cheers.
     
  29. Aug 13, 2019 #29

    Scott_650

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    He built swappable engine mounts - the single engine mount for staged flights, the cluster for single stage flights. Though I doubt I’d be able to resist trying a staged cluster flight at least once - with a huuuuge recovery area. And a Chute Release. And a tracker...
     
  30. Aug 13, 2019 #30

    Bruiser

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    This Saturday is the launch date for the local club. It is my intention to at least fly the sustainer in both with a D12 and the cluster of three 18mm engines. I'll have to see what Hobby Lobby has in stock. Maybe some B-somethings??? OR says 859 feet with a D12-5. I haven't figured out how to do a cluster in OR so no idea there...

    So lets see if the booster will be ready

    Tuesday: install fin plates, make vent holes and prime
    Wednesday: sand and re-prime. Final sand and put on rivet detail
    Thursday: Paint white
    Friday: Let white paint dry
    Saturday: Oops, no black fin paint and no decals

    It doesn't look like the booster will be ready

    Maybe I should leave this one at home and try to get a fully successful flight with my two stage Tempest. Last time the chute did not deploy and the sustainer suffered a broken fin. So maybe I should use the Tempest to practice/develop chute folding skills before damaging another rocket...

    Oh, and I just got an email that the launch may not be a go because there may be no Officials available to run things.

    -Bob
     

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