Dr. Zooch Saturn 1b build thread

[NJRick]

looks awesome Glen!! great job!!

Another advantage to having the forward centering ring notched for the baffle, is I can put two glue lines in the BT60 tube and slide it over the engine assembly, half of the bottom glue line will stay in place, like these grooved centering rings from Apogee. These centering rings are fairly close together, so it might be a tight squeeze to add the end glue line with only the first centering ring inserted half way, otherwise.

===update===
made a short coupler-sized ring to help slide the BT60 baffle disc into position and not spin around on me. Ready to glue this stack up and start wrapping it. Pretty much done with sanding and painting. (Writing my mandatory letter to my congressman that I have complied with the PWLSEA "People Who Lack Sanding Experience Act of 2014") Not much grain showing anymore.
View attachment 283102

 

[GlenP]

Now it's a party. That's what I'm talking about.

These very nicely detailed wraps are courtesy of Rosco Racer, many thanks, they look awesome!

(I now realize that in lining up the seams of all the wraps, which is somewhat implied in the instructions, the thick black bands are not over the "UNITED STATES" tanks, which would be the black tanks on other variants of the 1B. Ugh, still looks good, though not historically accurate.)

 

[kcobbva]

View attachment 283179
Now it's a party. That's what I'm talking about.

These very nicely detailed wraps are courtesy of Rosco Racer, many thanks, they look awesome!

(I now realize that in lining up the seams of all the wraps, which is somewhat implied in the instructions, the thick black bands are not over the "UNITED STATES" tanks, which would be the black tanks on other variants of the 1B. Ugh, still looks good, though not historically accurate.)

Glen...are the custom wraps postable so we can download and print like the shuttle wraps were?

 

[kcobbva]

View attachment 283179
Now it's a party. That's what I'm talking about.

These very nicely detailed wraps are courtesy of Rosco Racer, many thanks, they look awesome!

(I now realize that in lining up the seams of all the wraps, which is somewhat implied in the instructions, the thick black bands are not over the "UNITED STATES" tanks, which would be the black tanks on other variants of the 1B. Ugh, still looks good, though not historically accurate.)

Glen...are the custom wraps postable so we can download and print like the shuttle wraps were?

 

[NJRick]

Glen she looks great! did you ever decide to paper the fins? she looks awesome! Great job!!!

View attachment 283179
Now it's a party. That's what I'm talking about.

These very nicely detailed wraps are courtesy of Rosco Racer, many thanks, they look awesome!

(I now realize that in lining up the seams of all the wraps, which is somewhat implied in the instructions, the thick black bands are not over the "UNITED STATES" tanks, which would be the black tanks on other variants of the 1B. Ugh, still looks good, though not historically accurate.)

 

[GlenP]

Fins are next on my list. I have a couple of options and will do some experiments to see what looks best. I already made a very basic cardstock template, but might tweak it a little.

I thought I put the thrust structure wrap seam in the correct place with respect to the tanks, it seems to match the photos, then I put the other wraps on with the seam between those same tanks. In order to match the picture in the instructions and historical photos, it looks like the upper wrap seams have to be shifted, or I missed something. Not as big a goof on the all white tank version, but not sure why I did not pay attention to the details before glueing. usually a I do a test dry fit of parts, but that is hard to do with paper wraps.

 

[NJRick]

did you use white glue on the wraps? may be possible to remove the wrap and reposition it....she looks awesome regardless so it might not be worth the effort.

Fins are next on my list. I have a couple of options and will do some experiments to see what looks best. I already made a very basic cardstock template, but might tweak it a little.

I thought I put the thrust structure wrap seam in the correct place with respect to the tanks, it seems to match the photos, then I put the other wraps on with the seam between those same tanks. In order to match the picture in the instructions and historical photos, it looks like the upper wrap seams have to be shifted, or I missed something. Not as big a goof on the all white tank version, but not sure why I did not pay attention to the details before glueing. usually a I do a test dry fit of parts, but that is hard to do with paper wraps.

 

[GlenP]

I used a glue stick, and since this is on top of paint, it would probably be fairly easy to peel off, but I would print a new wrap to replace it. That will be on the back burner before I put finishing bits on, on to the fins...

 

[GlenP]

Let's call this one option 1, a simple cardstock fin. Just building one here, I found that the black/white roll patterns on the Rosco wrap does not match the Zooch wrap, which I used to make this fin template. So here is a demo of what this looks like if anyone wants to try this option.

Printed out the fin template on 100# cardstock. Cut one set of matching sides and the fillet and double it up, then triple it up. Glue the left/right sides together so you have a 6-ply cardstock fin. you can lightly sand the edges to get a good match. Glue the tank fillet onto the top of the fin, this one is 3-ply cardstock, which is not really needed, you can just use one ply. I went over the edge of the fin with a permanent black ink pen, I like the look of the black outline better on this fin. The fillet could be sanded lightly for a custom fit between the particular tanks.














Inkscape .svg file in a .zip archive of the plain fin patterns to match the stock Zooch wrap
View attachment fins.svg.zip

That's option 1, but since I am using the Rosco wraps, I will have make an update to the fin template to match that roll pattern, and then add the I, II, III, IIII markings on the fins, and try to make a template that can fold over a wedge-shaped balsa fin. Stay tuned.

 

[GlenP]

Of course I did not print all of the pages of Rosco Racer's wraps PDF, I just printed pages 14 and 15 for the ASTP version, but now I see he has some very important instructions on Page 2: "The left edges of the two TOP wraps (interstage and S-IVB) should align with the lower wrap here, along the red dashed line, with Fin Position II" D'oh! I just may re-print those upper wraps and try to remove the errant ones carefully when I finish working on the fins.

 

[NJRick]

that looks really cool! has to be easier than painting them!!

Let's call this one option 1, a simple cardstock fin. Just building one here, I found that the black/white roll patterns on the Rosco wrap does not match the Zooch wrap, which I used to make this fin template. So here is a demo of what this looks like if anyone wants to try this option.

Printed out the fin template on 100# cardstock. Cut one set of matching sides and the fillet and double it up, then triple it up. Glue the left/right sides together so you have a 6-ply cardstock fin. you can lightly sand the edges to get a good match. Glue the tank fillet onto the top of the fin, this one is 3-ply cardstock, which is not really needed, you can just use one ply. I went over the edge of the fin with a permanent black ink pen, I like the look of the black outline better on this fin. The fillet could be sanded lightly for a custom fit between the particular tanks.


View attachment 283297

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View attachment 283302

Inkscape .svg file in a .zip archive of the plain fin patterns to match the stock Zooch wrap
View attachment 283303

That's option 1, but since I am using the Rosco wraps, I will have make an update to the fin template to match that roll pattern, and then add the I, II, III, IIII markings on the fins, and try to make a template that can fold over a wedge-shaped balsa fin. Stay tuned.

 

[GlenP]

I have not updated my printable template yet, but can demonstrate the idea with the one-sided papers I printed already shown in option 1 cardstock fins. The one part I was struggling with was how to cover the bottom and tip of the fin, and I think I have a fairly workable solution by using a single strip for that which gets papered on first, then you can trim or even sand lightly to match the edges of the balsa.


The example test fin here is papered one side at a time, but I plan to rebuild my templates with a little oversize and folded over the leading edge in one piece, I also need to make my outlines white for the white parts of the fin so they don't have to get painted over. On this sample I used a white paint pen to white out my outlines. I also used a black pen to go over the paper edges in the black printed areas so you don't have a white seam showing.






Here is a photo of the two fins options together for comparison. Option 1 on the left, option B on the right. (see what I did there?)


The cardstock fins are a lot less work and look just fine, but if you want the triangular cross section and don't mind sanding the balsa, then papering them saves you some work of sealing, sanding, and painting the complex roll pattern on each fin. reverse angle view.


So, now I think I have a workable method after this demo fin experiment, and I have some sanding to get these 8 fins in shape. This may take a while before the next update. I will post my new printable template with the fold-over fins when I fin-nish it. My work is cut out for me now...

 

[GlenP]

here's another shot that shows how they look next to the thrust structure. From a few feet way, you could not really see much difference, but close up the triangle shaped fins look more realistic. I made these templates to match the stock Zooch wraps, but the Rosco Racer wraps have a slightly different width roll pattern. I will make my new fold-over balsa cover paper fins to match the Rosco wraps.

 

[kcobbva]

View attachment 283655
here's another shot that shows how they look next to the thrust structure. From a few feet way, you could not really see much difference, but close up the triangle shaped fins look more realistic. I made these templates to match the stock Zooch wraps, but the Rosco Racer wraps have a slightly different width roll pattern. I will make my new fold-over balsa cover paper fins to match the Rosco wraps.

Wow glen. Those fins look GREAT! Well done! When it's my time to build this; I know where I'm going to follow along!

 

[GlenP]

Glen...are the custom wraps postable so we can download and print like the shuttle wraps were?

I think the PDF is too large of a file to post on this forum, so it just gets sent via email upon request via PM. They have all the variations of the Saturn 1B missions, that's why the file is so large. These were created by rosco_racer who might not be that active here these days, but anyone who has them can send you a copy when you need it. The 1B is kind of like the other Zooch kits, this one is addictive and makes you want to build more of them. I think I will have to build a black tank version eventually, maybe when I finish the Soyuz kit to go with this ASTP kit.

Wow glen. Those fins look GREAT! Well done! When it's my time to build this; I know where I'm going to follow along!

Many thanks. They will look much better with a fold-over paper wrap on the leading edge.

I also will tweak the shape of the little fillet part that goes between the tanks, and print them up as well. hcmbanjo posted a neater shape on his blog, which is who you should really be following along to learn some great techniques.

 

[NJRick]

Glen....the fins look awesome! And I agree 100% on the blog by hcmbanjo....his build blog is terrific!

 

[GlenP]

Thanks, I think either fin option would look great, option 1 or option B. (get it, options 1, B ... now you get it, right?) My foldover template for option B is taking shape, here is a screen shot sample. I am going to have to experiment with a lightweight line for the white outlines that won't show up much on the fin, but be visible enough to cut it out. Here is a first cut for fin number III.

 

[NJRick]

this looks awesome! I always felt the fins (and engines) were the weakest part of my 1b builds. These look great!

Thanks, I think either fin option would look great, option 1 or option B. (get it, options 1, B ... now you get it, right?) My foldover template for option B is taking shape, here is a screen shot sample. I am going to have to experiment with a lightweight line for the white outlines that won't show up much on the fin, but be visible enough to cut it out. Here is a first cut for fin number III.

View attachment 283693

 

[kcobbva]

Yeah! My Saturn 1B arrived today. Will definitely be referring to this thread when I get a chance to get started!

 

[GlenP]

Cool, definitely pay closer attention to the wrap seams than I did, the upper tank wrap seams do not line up with the lower thrust structure seam if you want to match the historical scheme.

I have finished sanding my set of eight fins to their wedge shape, finally. Now, I feel like the square edge fins would have looked just fine too, anything to avoid sanding those little fins. Did I mention there were eight of them? At least I won't have to mask and paint them.

 

[NJRick]

the thing with the Saturn 1b is that has those 8 raked fins.....and then again...its 8 fins! masking and painting them is the hard part I think...lots of trial and error to line them up and mask that line where the thrust structure wrap says it should go. I think your paper fins are really going to help with that!

Cool, definitely pay closer attention to the wrap seams than I did, the upper tank wrap seams do not line up with the lower thrust structure seam if you want to match the historical scheme.

I have finished sanding my set of eight fins to their wedge shape, finally. Now, I feel like the square edge fins would have looked just fine too, anything to avoid sanding those little fins. Did I mention there were eight of them? At least I won't have to mask and paint them.

 

[NJRick]

you are going to love this kit! of all the Zooch kits his Saturn 1b is my favorite.

Yeah! My Saturn 1B arrived today. Will definitely be referring to this thread when I get a chance to get started!

 

[GlenP]

The experimental papered fins are shown here again, the ones made with one-sided laminated cardstock, along with the balsa fins that have all been sanded to a triangular wedge cross section. I tried to keep the trailing edge width constant across the span, they are not tapered at the tip like the real original rocket. I am making some final tweaks to my fold-over templates before printing them up, I need to add the re-shaped fillet parts, still trying out some ideas for those and I will have plenty of room for them on the page. Just about ready to paper and hang these fins on.

P.S. that balsa sheet is what I have left over from the kit after cutting out 9 fins.

 

[NJRick]

she is really looking great Glen! The 8 fins can be a pain...but honestly, to me, they really make the 1b look cool...just beautiful raked fins.

 

[GlenP]

My idea for the fillet parts is to make a part that goes from one fin root to the other to hide the seam, so instead of a triangle shape it will be like a segment of a transition with an ellipse cut out. At first I thought I could make one single transition with the tube holes cut out, but at this scale the edge would get very thin and my tubes are not exactly uniformly spaced. so I can cut and custom fit each part, but hide the seams under the fins. might be more work than it's worth, but I will do some experiments first to see if the results are worth the extra effort. That's the cool thing about a Zooch kit, the stock kit has a good compromise between detail and difficulty, but you can make your own customizations as much as you like, he packs a lot of value into one of those kit boxes.

 

[NJRick]

sounds like a good idea Glen....let us know how it turns out. I also followed HCMBanjo's blog and cut the triangular pieces somewhat wider than the ones provided on the wraps. As you said, at this scale they are close enough. You have brought some really neat ideas to the table on this build including your fins and the possible wraps...great work!

My idea for the fillet parts is to make a part that goes from one fin root to the other to hide the seam, so instead of a triangle shape it will be like a segment of a transition with an ellipse cut out. At first I thought I could make one single transition with the tube holes cut out, but at this scale the edge would get very thin and my tubes are not exactly uniformly spaced. so I can cut and custom fit each part, but hide the seams under the fins. might be more work than it's worth, but I will do some experiments first to see if the results are worth the extra effort. That's the cool thing about a Zooch kit, the stock kit has a good compromise between detail and difficulty, but you can make your own customizations as much as you like, he packs a lot of value into one of those kit boxes.

 

[GlenP]

Took a break from this build to finish up my Mercury Redstone when I had some breaks in the wind and rain to finally paint the roll pattern. Skipped ahead to the engine nozzles. I didn't really make the funky glue putty to attach the dowel, I just added a generous fillet, and kept adding a little more to it. I found some metallic steel acrylic paint at Target in their crafts section to brush on. I could probably do better the next time around with wrapping the thread for the hat-bands. Building a few cardstock nose cones and other Zooch kits was a good practice for these engine bells. I think I will be ready to tackle the 16 nozzles on the Soyuz next.

 

[NJRick]

Glen they look great to me! You did a better job than I did with the engines. The Zooch Soyuz is a cool rocket...I always thought making the hat bands that top the strap on boosters were hard....patience is the key to building that rocket!

Took a break from this build to finish up my Mercury Redstone when I had some breaks in the wind and rain to finally paint the roll pattern. Skipped ahead to the engine nozzles. I didn't really make the funky glue putty to attach the dowel, I just added a generous fillet, and kept adding a little more to it. I found some metallic steel acrylic paint at Target in their crafts section to brush on. I could probably do better the next time around with wrapping the thread for the hat-bands. Building a few cardstock nose cones and other Zooch kits was a good practice for these engine bells. I think I will be ready to tackle the 16 nozzles on the Soyuz next.

View attachment 285058

 

[kcobbva]

Glen you do really nice work. no doubt about that!!

 

[NJRick]

agree 100%!! your 1b is looking awesome Glen!

Glen you do really nice work. no doubt about that!!