Down the drain...

[Padseven]

We have in this country what is said to be the greatest public school system in the world. We have invested fabulous sums for fine buildings, we have provided convenient transportation for children living in the rural districts, so they may attend the
best schools, but there is one astounding weakness to this marvelous system--IT IS FREE!

Nepoleon Hill

 

[DAllen]

IT IS FREE!

Pretty sure it isn't. Wanna see my tax bill?

 

[Padseven]

Pretty sure it isn't. Wanna see my tax bill?

Free to the student!!! You pay for it and the person who benifits from it doesn't pay therefore it has little value to the receiver. Mr. Hill predicted the failure of the public education system in the 1930s

 

[Padseven]

Free to the student!!! You pay for it and the person who benifits from it doesn't pay therefore it has little value to the receiver. Mr. Hill predicted the failure of the public education system in the 1930s

By the way, I am well aware of school tax. I pay taxes to 3 different districts in 2 states and my children attend none of those schools!

 

[DAllen]

Free to the student!!!

Not saying much. Pretty much everything is free for them for the first few years anyways. Little value to the receiver? Yeah if you're a lazy parent and don't bother to teach the kiddos about the value of an education.

 

[Padseven]

Not saying much. Pretty much everything is free for them for the first few years anyways. Little value to the receiver? Yeah if you're a lazy parent and don't bother to teach the kiddos about the value of an education.

Think my point has been made.

 

[Knuckledragger]

My spouse is a teacher of 10 years with the equivalent of two MS degrees, one she has the sheepskin for, the other is the $8k in continuing ed classes we just laid out the credit card for so she can earn, hold on to you rail launchers, $46k this year (before Retirement, state- fed taxes, and union dues come out of that). Pay raise last year also meant more got taken out for retirement and taxes so a 15% pay raise is about 8-9% afterwards (no pay raises in the last 8 years but costs of living have gone up). Not bad but not as good as it sounds to the public ear. Teachers in our state get their pay reduced/averaged through the 9 months of the year so that they get paid over the summer months as do I. They don't pay in to Social Security but do pay in to the retirement system which is prorated to where you fall in the longevity schedule as to what percentage you will collect based on what you averaged the last three years before you retired. Last year we were allowed to claim $250 on our taxes of the $600 she spent on students directly, mostly for food and some for supplies. Its not a 40hr work week either and not by choice; grading has to be timely for the admin and student and in all truthfulness she hits 60+ hours easily plus planning on weekends - no overtime pay for her. And of course, Mr/Ms Future NFL/USTAF star that procrastinated and didn't turn in their work won't be able to play on the team this week if the grade isn't in. Do you think the parent held the kid accountable and said "tough". Do you think the coach held the kid accountable or just asked the teacher to "do the kid a solid?" Then Admin is wanting to know why grades are low and what can the teacher do to help them out because you can't write an F for work not turned it at all. None of the above. They all expect her to drop everything she was doing to support the kids that did what was expected, to accommodate the "the one" plus make their lives easier because they don't want to be the bad person. I work as support tech to the same school and make a astronomical $27K with my BS and two AS degrees in Aeronautics. Luckily my military retirement covers the medical, dental, and eye insurance. What it cost the teachers not including the deductable is piracy. Five military bases surround us so the community is fluid. The district puts $2m+ in to the for-profit and some cases, tax exempt, charter schools in the area under State law. Those charter schools get to cherry pick their enrollment; the public system, well, not so much. THIS year alone, nine of our 12 regular subs have not come back to our schools because our cherub little 6,7, and 8 graders prefer to say F you versus hello. Class sizes are avg 34-36 students that are on meds or not, from broken homes or not, severe needs and one aid, and parents see teachers as adversaries vs team multipliers. Think about that for a second. As an adult reflecting back on your youth, were really a stellar kid 100% of the time when your folks weren't around? Our gentrifying neighborhoods are willing to give but watching the district spend upwards of 25% of their budget on superfluous or tertiary, flavor of the month initiatives doesn't build trust when it comes to funding and I get it. We don't have kids but we pay taxes because someone, thanks to Thomas Jefferson and the mil levy system, paid for our education. Personally, I look forward to volunteering time with the kiddos and sharing my around-the-world experiences with them in hopes of showing them there is a great, big world outside of the zip code they live in. When I tell them I've lived in 5 countries, vacationed in 36, and deployed to 7, they look perplexed as if it's not an option for them. When I tell them of the people in my immediate social circle that work for NGOs overseeing elections in foreign countries or helping women establish trade businesses, performing dental surgeries in South America, or painting schools in Africa, or working in New Zealand/Australia supporting Antarctic scientists, they're amazed at how did those people find those jobs. When I tell them about watching the Trident II second stage roar down the 10 mile test track in NM or seeing missile radomes go through the mil-spec rain simulator at mach to validate the engineering; maybe, just maybe it will resonate with a few along the way and I can point them to local personalities that make themselves available and share their interest in aircraft, rockets, radios, etc...

 

[boatgeek]

...
Good - that's why Charter Schools continually outperform public schools in the same district. What motive does a public school have to make my children a priority? I know what motive a for-profit charter school has - what's driving a union-owned public school with tenured teachers to make my children a priority? ...

~17% of charter schools outperform the traditional public schools, 37% are worse than their local traditional public schools, though there is a great deal of variability from state to state. https://www.data-first.org/question...egular-public-schools-in-student-performance/

The cost of a teacher to the district while the teacher is teaching doesn't include the cost of the teacher to the district once they've retired, so that $110k on average is incomplete. AND that cost excludes the fact that the teacher does not work for 3 months out of the year. So, if you compare apples to apples, a teacher cost of $110k is equivalent to $145k for an engineer. The level of education for an engineer and a teacher are not remotely comparable, so the fact that a teacher earns a comparable salary to an engineer is ludicrous.
...

I don't know how either of those points compute. When I was full time as an engineer, I worked 40-45 hours a week, 2000-2300 hours/year. Everything I've heard from teachers is that they work a minimum of 50 hours/week during the 10 months of the school year, plus some training over the summer. That's a minimum of 2000 hours a year, not counting summer training. So hours/year are pretty comparable. Levels of education? I have a BS and a PE license. While some engineers have MS or PhD degrees, it's not uncommon for them to just have a BS and learn how the real world works on the job. To get to the top salaries in teaching, you need a PhD or equivalent. Under Seattle's CBA, you need an MA/MS or equivalent to get any raises after a few years. I would agree that the level of education isn't remotely comparable, but that's not in favor of the engineer.

 

[afadeev]

↑[/URL]]
...
Good - that's why Charter Schools continually outperform public schools in the same district. What motive does a public school have to make my children a priority? I know what motive a for-profit charter school has - what's driving a union-owned public school with tenured teachers to make my children a priority? ...

~17% of charter schools outperform the traditional public schools, 37% are worse than their local traditional public schools, though there is a great deal of variability from state to state. https://www.data-first.org/question...egular-public-schools-in-student-performance/

The above quoted data point is brought to you by DataFirst, which is owned by National School Boards Association, which is a lobbying arm of public state school boards associations.


I was curious to dig deeper into the above claim of charter vs. public school performance, but gave up last night when I could not find any non-biased data points.
Not surprisingly, public school lobbying arms claim state schools do better, while charter school association web sites proclaimed they do better.
The truth is that it probably varies, a lot, by specific school.

To me this is not an idle interest.
I would seriously consider moving my elementary grade school kids to a charter school if one was nearby (there isn't), and if I could be convinced that a charter school does a better job of educating then does our public school district. Alas, NY/NJ have 3-4% of students in charter schools due to low availability (not sure why, it's ~6% nationwide), and further 10-13% in private (mostly religious) schools, so the options are limited. We enjoy our kids company way too much to send them to a quality boarding school, never mind the cost.
https://ballotpedia.org/Charter_school_statistics_for_all_50_states
https://informationstation.org/vide...qj9T-T3L3g0yCGoP4gYvwB_KV62PdryRoCvoYQAvD_BwE

To get to the top salaries in teaching, you need a PhD or equivalent. Under Seattle's CBA, you need an MA/MS or equivalent to get any raises after a few years. I would agree that the level of education isn't remotely comparable, but that's not in favor of the engineer.

You are confounding quantity for quality of education.
It's not hard to pile up degrees, mostly from online or 3rd-tier universities, with minimal effort or intellectual or professional enrichment. That may qualify one for a "promotion" and salary bump in a school district, or a local library (another profession that requires spurious MA's and PhD's to get promoted), but hardly amounts to a hill of beans.

We have in this country what is said to be the greatest public school system in the world.

Can you site any sources that substantiate the above claim?

The data sources I can find all suggest that the US K-12 education system is mediocre and overpriced, and is getting worse, not better with time:
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/15/u-s-students-internationally-math-science/
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/07/us-education-spending-finland-south-korea

a

 

[boatgeek]

The above quoted data point is brought to you by DataFirst, which is owned by National School Boards Association, which is a lobbying arm of public state school boards associations.


I was curious to dig deeper into the above claim of charter vs. public school performance, but gave up last night when I could not find any non-biased data points.
Not surprisingly, public school lobbying arms claim state schools do better, while charter school association web sites proclaimed they do better.
The truth is that it probably varies, a lot, by specific school.

To me this is not an idle interest.
I would seriously consider moving my elementary grade school kids to a charter school if one was nearby (there isn't), and if I could be convinced that a charter school does a better job of educating then does our public school district. Alas, NY/NJ have 3-4% of students in charter schools due to low availability (not sure why, it's ~6% nationwide), and further 10-13% in private (mostly religious) schools, so the options are limited. We enjoy our kids company way too much to send them to a quality boarding school, never mind the cost.
https://ballotpedia.org/Charter_school_statistics_for_all_50_states
https://informationstation.org/vide...qj9T-T3L3g0yCGoP4gYvwB_KV62PdryRoCvoYQAvD_BwE

That's a fair criticism and one I noticed in putting it out there. Here's a couple of alternatives that show roughly the same answers:
Texas: https://hanushek.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/publications/Baude+Casey+Hanushek+Rivkin 2014 NBER w20645.pdf
Stanford, nationwide: https://credo.stanford.edu/documents/NCSS 2013 Executive Summary.pdf

As far as I can tell, neither of these are put out by an organization with a dog in the fight, but I don't know who is funding the research. Funding bias may exist.

[edit] Also, I will 100% agree that just because the national statistics say that charters and state schools have the same outcomes on average, there are good and bad standouts in both groups. They may be quite close to one another. The only thing I'm saying here is that just because a school is a charter doesn't mean it's necessarily better or worse than the local public schools.

You are confounding quantity for quality of education.
It's not hard to pile up degrees, mostly from online or 3rd-tier universities, with minimal effort or intellectual or professional enrichment. That may qualify one for a "promotion" and salary bump in a school district, or a local library (another profession that requires spurious MA's and PhD's to get promoted), but hardly amounts to a hill of beans.
...

I was responding to Jmuck's claim that the level of education for teachers and engineers is not remotely comparable. I continue to disagree with that statement. It's true that you can get an online degree, but I suspect that most school districts are smart enough to prevent a pay bump on that basis. For example, Seattle requires that the college/university be accredited with a Good rating or better.

 

[BABAR]

Advantage (perhaps "unfair" but real) for private schools is the ability to eject students for poor behavior. Not sure if charter schools can do this.

Similar advantage is ability to cherry pick both good students and students with supportive parents (likely significant overlap in those groups.)

While perhaps "unfair" and disadvantages to poorer students, do we really as a society want to hold our best and brightest hostage to the lowest common denominator,?

I have sympathy for students who may be on the lower end of the intelligence bell curve but are trying. I have pity but no sympathy for those behavior problems are due to neglectful parenting and who simply drag down the entire class. You can argue probably correctly that at least initially it's not the kids fault. But it's a society issue, not something that should be placed upon the responsibility of the educational system. In fact it is a specific problem that the educational system simply cannot solve.

 

[DAllen]

Advantage (perhaps "unfair" but real) for private schools is the ability to eject students for poor behavior. Not sure if charter schools can do this.

Similar advantage is ability to cherry pick both good students and students with supportive parents (likely significant overlap in those groups.)

Exactly. Charter schools are not in the same situation as public schools. And as far as charter schools around here they can absolutely kick out problem children which then often puts them back into the public schools. Comparing charter to public is apples and oranges.

 

[BLH]

Note the difference between salary and the total cost of the teacher, including benefits. Teachers in general don't seem to understand that one of the reasons their salaries are low is because of the costs of benefits the teachers themselves have demanded.



Teachers have pressures since they have to deal directly with parents, but the idea that teachers are more burdened than other workers isn't accurate. It doesn't really matter if teachers are "expected to continue working on teaching" over the summer - that doesn't prevent them from having 2-3 months of vacation time during the summer. Most professionals are expected to work nights and weekends, and if we truly want time off, we have to use earned vacation time.

True indeed. All the people that I grew up with that went into teaching are all retired now in their 40-50's with real nice pensions. That would sure be nice. They did seem to get way more time off than any one else when they were working also...

I think teachers are great and I would vote for more pay for them if they would teach more down the middle instead so far progressive. Same is true at most universities...

Another thing that is annoying about the whole deal is they want smaller class sizes, yet being duped by the unions, vote for open boarders and sanctuary cities. How does that work?

 

[Rockyt]

Note the difference between salary and the total cost of the teacher, including benefits. Teachers in general don't seem to understand that one of the reasons their salaries are low is because of the costs of benefits the teachers themselves have demanded.



Teachers have pressures since they have to deal directly with parents, but the idea that teachers are more burdened than other workers isn't accurate. It doesn't really matter if teachers are "expected to continue working on teaching" over the summer - that doesn't prevent them from having 2-3 months of vacation time during the summer. Most professionals are expected to work nights and weekends, and if we truly want time off, we have to use earned vacation time.

Because of Benefits? We are legally required to receive medical benefits, and the district is legally required to give it, so that levels out. Our School District offers Medical, but it is excessively expensive, in our area. It is based on the number of individuals in the program, so we can;t afford decent medical thru her employer. Mine is a completely different story. Which creates another counter point, the difference in annual salary is a mere few hundred dollars if you can prove alternate benefits are in place.

Teachers are often viewed as having nights and weekends off, as your post implies, but the time they have to grade, plan, prepare, etc. is that very same timeframe. They only have a small amount of time off during the school year, and must use it on their own kids events, such as PT conferences. And they often, in many districts, particularly 'inner city' district provide extra activities, materials, and incentives, and can now not even claim that money on their taxes (but tax changes are a TOTALLY separate argument and not appropriate here). The point is, for what they do, the average teacher is expected to do a LOT with a Little, and receive a proportionately lower compensation for it.

 

[Buckeye]

As the owner of a 'for profit' Montessori School...My parents ...pay tuition to me so their children can receive a quality education from 15 months to Grade 6.

Then when these Montessori kids go to our public middle school for Grade 7, they are behind the rest of their classmates. Hmm.

Please, enough of the "teachers only work 9 months of the year" crap. My wife has maybe 6 "off" weeks in the summer. And yes, she works every night and weekend, checking papers, grading exams, preparing lesson plans, and responding to pain in the ass parents who think their kids can do no wrong. During the "day" part of the job, she is on her feet nonstop, no coffee breaks, no slipping out early, no watercooler chitchat, and 15 minutes for lunch. Hell, she can't even go to the bathroom on her own terms. Hardly a cushy professional environment. She loves it and loves the kids. God bless her. I couldn't do it.

 

[dhbarr]

Then when these Montessori kids go to our public middle school for Grade 7, they are behind the rest of their classmates. Hmm.

In my experience, this is not a supportable statement. My experience is not everyone's, only mine.

However, if by 'behind' we mean 'unaccustomed to a grueling test regimen' than I would completely understand.

If they did performance review at work that way, I'd move on.

 

[BABAR]

Exactly. Charter schools are not in the same situation as public schools. And as far as charter schools around here they can absolutely kick out problem children which then often puts them back into the public schools. Comparing charter to public is apples and oranges.

No doubt. As a parent however if I care about MY kid I want her/him in the school that can kick the bad apples out.

No, I don’t know what to do with the ill behaved kids. But holding the rest of the class hostage to them is stupid.

Edited: emphasize is it MY responsibility as a parent to make sure MY kid behaves, not the school’s responsibility to teach my kid manners.

 

[mdnehez]

Not so at all, There are 5th graders in my wife's class that do Algebra regularly, and understand it. All students in her class tested out at least 2 grade levels above in Reading. And we don't cherry pick, it come as you are. Most children want to learn, it's wired into our DNA, it's how we survive, there's this little thing that we 'engagement' where the children are directly involved in what they are learning, not just the waaa-waa-waaaa of Charlie Browns' teacher.

-Mike

 

[BLH]

No doubt. As a parent however if I care about MY kid I want her/him in the school that can kick the bad apples out.

No, I don’t know what to do with the ill behaved kids. But holding the rest of the class hostage to them is stupid.

Edited: emphasize is it MY responsibility as a parent to make sure MY kid behaves, not the school’s responsibility to teach my kid manners.

I kinda thinks kids sometimes needs a paddle in the @#8. But that's not allowed anymore; as it stings. I probably needed more and still may once in awhile. Doesn't removing the "ill behaved" persons instill fear in the remaining group of being removed for nonconformance? Is that better than giving them a sting and making the group stay together?

 

[BABAR]

I got sent to principal in first grade and got "the belt" to my behind. It's been about 1/2 a century, i don't remember it hurting much but i do recall NOT wanting to repeat the experience.

ANY organization which charges managers, leaders, teachers, etc. with RESPONSIBILITY for subordinates' behavior without the AUTHORITY to apply appropriate rewards and punishment/consequences will inevitably fail

Unless either parents and/or society give teachers that power the kids are doomed. The sad part is that a lot of the "rotten" kids probably are above average in intelligence and creativity but because no one holds them accountable they go (as this thread is titled) down the drain.

I know. I WAS one of the rotten ones. I now have 11 years post college education and I am doing well.

 

[JStarStar]

Abolish all school sports. Close the gyms, sell off the baseball and football fields, cancel insurance, etc etc. Cut the budgets to $0.00.

If you think your little darling is on a fast track to the NBA or NFL, you sign them up for a youth club, and you write the checks (or get someone else to; your problem).

Instantly billions of dollars are kicked back into school budgets.

Essentially the whole rest of the world laughs at the American system of schools supporting semi pro sports teams.

 

[BABAR]

Abolish all school sports. Close the gyms, sell off the baseball and football fields, cancel insurance, etc etc. Cut the budgets to $0.00.

If you think your little darling is on a fast track to the NBA or NFL, you sign them up for a youth club, and you write the checks (or get someone else to; your problem).

Instantly billions of dollars are kicked back into school budgets.

Essentially the whole rest of the world laughs at the American system of schools supporting semi pro sports teams.

Not arguing with you on issue of cancelling sports (not cheering you one either)
Although regarding football in particular, as we are learning more about head injuries, tackle football is starting to look like insanity.)

But do you really think throwing more money at schools will solve ANY problems?

 

[DAllen]

Abolish all school sports.

Oh ok. Well if we're going down that road then cancel music programs, art, robotics programs, etc. No more, "one time at band camp" stories...

Have fun with that one.

Oh, and we are supposed to care what other countries think of us?

 

[JStarStar]

Oh ok. Well if we're going down that road then cancel music programs, art, robotics programs, etc. No more, "one time at band camp" stories...

Have fun with that one.

Oh, and we are supposed to care what other countries think of us?

Art (graphics design) and robotics (STEM) lead directly to credible career skills. Sports do not.

Care what rest of the world thinks or not, but many countries are dramatically outperforming the US in educational outcomes, and no country anywhere devotes billions of public education money to running farm teams for professional sports leagues.

 

[afadeev]

Art (graphics design) and robotics (STEM) lead directly to credible career skills.

Nothing our kids do in K-12 leads directly to any career, other than those in landscaping or retail store clerking. K-12 education is a stepping stone to college / grad school / Higher Education levels.
Maybe situation improves for US students at Higher Education level, at least at the top-tier schools, may be not:
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/29/...we-have-the-worlds-best-colleges-we-dont.html
https://www.mbacrystalball.com/blog/2017/07/31/top-higher-education-systems-world/
https://www.qs.com/the-strongest-higher-education-systems-by-country-overview/

Care what rest of the world thinks or not, but many countries are dramatically outperforming the US in educational outcomes, and no country anywhere devotes billions of public education money to running farm teams for professional sports leagues.

Again, this conflates K-12 quality deficiency with lack of funding (or over-funding of after-school activities).
You have an ax to grind with sports - what % of school board funding goes to sports? It is exactly 2% in mine.
What % of school funding is devoted to sports and after-school activities in other countries?

Someone else might with other after-school programs, but what does that have to do with the quality of education itself?
Where is the data that would support your implied premise that more funds for the existing US K-12 system would improve the educational outcomes?

a

 

[Rockyt]

Not trying to separate, nor take a side in this, but when I voiced appreciation for local school cutting back PE courses, rather than targeting band and the arts as a first victim, I was chastised in a local group...namely by family members.

As for football, American football, with the current movement (unless it has already stopped) wanting a 'salary' for college football players, despite the housing, scholarships, and freedom of testing, etc. that come with it, then football in HS can lead to a direct job (at least for 4 years). And let's be honest, Football is largely based on aggression and physicality...something that even football players are protesting when embraced by other professions.

The arts, and STEM are creativity based (I dare you to tell any engineer they aren't creative) and are what the rest of the world celebrates. Why focus on the rest of the world? One word...globalization.Without STEM and (to a lesser extent) the Arts, rocketry disappears, so...