Do you consider MPR a pre-requisite for HPR?

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I did MPR for ten years before I joined a club to get my L1. I built a new rocket for it, but technically I could (and probably should have) used my for 4" Patriot (29mm MMT) for my L1. I had flown it a dozen times, at least, and the bump up from a G80 to an H100 is pretty much nothing. Experience is something you can only build by flying and MPR made my L1 very easy.
 
MY 1989 TRA Confirmation flight was on a NCR Big Brute on a AT H70 29mm

Or was it a H50 I can't totally remember , I think it is the H70

I also flew a Enerjet 2250 on 3 F-100s that Chris Person said might CATO but all three motors worked just fine... They were bought back when Gorge Roos Made them....
 
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RocketScientistAustralia said:
Like all things rocketry, you've got to be compliant with all the rules While Tripoli rules do not require MPR certification before HPR, our club rules do. NSWRocketry.org.au. While I personally went straight to H certication flight at a different club, I had 20 years experience in special effects prior to that. So, as a general principle, MPR certification is a good thing, there should be room for someone to say go for it. That said, MPR certification is pretty easy and cheap to do. So I'm OK with the club rule. i'll do my MPR cert next launch for compliance.....
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This! ^^
Our club also requires a successful mandatory MPR assessment prior to L1 HPR certification. Additionally, we require a minimum number of successful flights between certifications. We don’t believe in box-ticking and want all our members to enjoy and benefit from the experience of the journey.
 
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Voyager1 said:
This! ^^
Our club also requires a successful mandatory MPR assessment prior to L1 HPR certification. Additionally, we require a minimum number of successful flights between certifications. We don’t believe in box-ticking and want all our members to enjoy and benefit from the experience of the trip.
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Actually, you're saying you do require box ticking.....
 
I consider flying some composite propellant motors in the E/F/G impulse range to be a strong recommendation before flying L1. The "up" is different with composites and therefor the "down" is different. No substitute for experience. I also think developing some kind of "on the field" relationship between the flyers and the cert team is a good thing. I know you-you know me, lets have some fun and punch some holes in the sky. Makes for a low stress cert experience I think.
 
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I think you're more likely to FAIL your L1 cert if you've never flown an F or G motor. If you try and make the jump from little Estes kits to a 38mm H motor, you're likely going to build a weak, light rocket that will either shred itself on the way up, or become a tiny speck in the sky you can't track any longer. Instead of opting for low and slow, some people are in a rush to hit 5k feet with a 2.6" diameter rocket that pops the chute at apogee and floats 3 miles away.

Now, that said, I'm sure there are people who've done their L1 cert with a DBRM, and gotten away with it. And there are those that overdo it, building a big heavy rocket for their L1 that can barely get off the pad with a G80... I count myself with the overdo-ers. I've been in this hobby for only 18 months, and I've already seen a huge number of failures, even from experienced guys flying 7.5" rockets that make a detectable THUD when they nosedive into the ground at 180mph.
 
techrat said:
I think you're more likely to FAIL your L1 cert if you've never flown an F or G motor. If you try and make the jump from little Estes kits to a 38mm H motor, you're likely going to build a weak, light rocket that will either shred itself on the way up, or become a tiny speck in the sky you can't track any longer. Instead of opting for low and slow, some people are in a rush to hit 5k feet with a 2.6" diameter rocket that pops the chute at apogee and floats 3 miles away.
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Nothing says level certificate flights have to be "low and slow"; in fact that may actually be just as much of an issue as never finding the rocket again. Seen enough underpowered "large" rockets on mid-power motors crash and burn, or alternatively "large" midpower that are overpowered with large Gs and have their fins ripped off.

But certainly having experience at MPR, especially with the different techniques in MPR and HPR vs LPR, can't not hurt. I would recommend it to anyone. But its not required by NAR or Tripoli.

I'm wondering if either NAR or Tripoli publish a report on number of attempts vs ratio of success/failure.
 
Lots of answers here, most saying the same thing: Useful in many ways but not absolutely required. I’m inclined to agree.

@Hobie1dog I think most viewed it as a survey of opinions than a technical question that only needed one answer. I appreciate how unified the community opinion seems to be though.
 
A forum implies discussion. Some discussions never end. That’s evident from glue threads as well as discussions about how difficult the organizations should make certification.
The criteria for Level 1 are very straightforward; can a person build a rocket that’s capable of withstanding the stresses that result from an L1 flight and fly it safely. It’s not a litmus test of experience. The skills a person learns from building an Estes Fat Boy and flying it on a C motor are sufficient when combined with a decent quality kit.
We tighten up for L2 for a number of reasons. A person holding an L2 certification can act as RSO or Prefect. For those reasons she or he must have a knowledge of safety rules. We document that knowledge by testing L2 applicants before we allow them to fly.
L1 is the gateway. L2 is where things get more difficult.
 
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Voyager1 said:
Perhaps we just don’t believe in one tick per box, Norm.
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If the rules are documented and the members joined knowing the rules, then it's fine. However.... If they are not documented, and decisions are being made on the whim of an individual about another individual's ability to launch, then at best you have a benevolent dictatorship. Which can change to a bad dictatorship if the person making the decisions changes. Or their mood changes. (And in Australia we've all seen that happen)
For that reason, the rules have to be documented.
If someone turns up with a rocket that is safe and requests a certification flight, they should be allowed to do it. It should not be prevented by someone's whim, regardless of how well intentioned that is. LCO and RSO can deny a flight, but should always provide a safety related reason. "I don't think you've done enough flights prior" wouldn't be one of them in my opinion. With the exception of dual deploy electronics use for an L3 cert which is documented in the Tripoli rules.
In conclusion, an MPR certification is a good idea, but not required under Tripoli rules. Box ticking certification racing should be discouraged, but not prevented.

Where's that glue thread you mentioned Steve? @Steve Shannon
 
RocketScientistAustralia said:
If the rules are documented and the members joined knowing the rules, then it's fine. However.... If they are not documented, and decisions are being made on the whim of an individual about another individual's ability to launch, then at best you have a benevolent dictatorship. Which can change to a bad dictatorship if the person making the decisions changes. Or their mood changes. (And in Australia we've all seen that happen)
For that reason, the rules have to be documented.
If someone turns up with a rocket that is safe and requests a certification flight, they should be allowed to do it. It should not be prevented by someone's whim, regardless of how well intentioned that is. LCO and RSO can deny a flight, but should always provide a safety related reason. "I don't think you've done enough flights prior" wouldn't be one of them in my opinion. With the exception of dual deploy electronics use for an L3 cert which is documented in the Tripoli rules.
In conclusion, an MPR certification is a good idea, but not required under Tripoli rules. Box ticking certification racing should be discouraged, but not prevented.
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On the other hand, an individual member is under no obligation to witness a certification attempt if that member believes that the applicant’s lack of experience is a barrier to safe flight. That kind of judgement call is difficult to abuse when the applicant can ask any certified members.

If it were me, I’d subject the applicant to extra scrutiny to ensure they can answer a few questions about their rocket’s design, basic range safety rules, etc, and ensure they have enough functionality between their ears to think things through. Nothing too involved, just the stuff I’d expect people to be able to talk about confidently if they’ve spent at least a few hours perusing the first few chapters of Stine’s Handbook, or maybe if they stumbled onto a forum somewhere and got some help from the community there ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In truth though, I think having a successful flight (by standards of a cert flight) in each impulse class A-G is a sufficiently robust standard to give a kit or well-designed scratch-build a go on an H without presenting an imminent catastrophic risk. I’d still caution that flier against overconfidence post-cert, but I would see no problem with them making H or I flights on their cert rocket without being babysat by a certification witness. RSO screening should be sufficient to prevent serious accidents.
 
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smstachwick said:
On the other hand, an individual member is under no obligation to witness a certification attempt if that member believes that the applicant’s lack of experience is a barrier to safe flight. That kind of judgement call is difficult to abuse when the applicant can ask any certified members.

If it were me, I’d subject the applicant to extra scrutiny to ensure they can answer a few questions about their rocket’s design, basic range safety rules, etc, and ensure they have enough functionality between their ears to think things through. Nothing too involved, just the stuff I’d expect people to be able to talk about confidently if they’ve spent at least a few hours perusing the first few chapters of Stine’s Handbook, or maybe if they stumbled onto a forum somewhere and got some help from the community there ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In truth though, I think having a successful flight (by standards of a cert flight) in each impulse class A-G is a sufficiently robust standard to give an kit or well-designed scratch-build a go on an H without presenting an imminent catastrophic risk. I’d still caution that flier against overconfidence post-cert, but I would see no problem with them making H or I flights on their cert rocket without being babysat by a certification witness. RSO screening should be sufficient to prevent serious accidents.
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You're on dangerous ground if they present you with a rocket that has no issues and you refuse them because you don't think they're ready. However well intentioned.
 
Steve Shannon said:
A forum implies discussion. Some discussions never end. That’s evident from glue threads as well as discussions about how difficult the organizations should make certification.
The criteria for Level 1 are very straightforward; can a person build a rocket that’s capable of withstanding the stresses that result from an L1 flight and fly it safely. It’s not a litmus test of experience. The skills a person learns from building an Estes Fat Boy and flying it on a C motor are sufficient when combined with a decent quality kit.
We tighten up for L2 for a number of reasons. A person holding an L2 certification can act as RSO or Prefect. For those reasons she or he must have a knowledge of safety rules. We document that knowledge by testing L2 applicants before we allow them to fly.
L1 is the gateway. L2 is where things get more difficult.
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Yup, and this one continues to resurface.

I would recommend a few mid-power flights. Rushing to cert might be rushing to failure.
 
RocketScientistAustralia said:
Shane Stachwick/NAR #112384. Allegedly 27 years old but functionally 5.

The answer was in your own signature
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I’ve gotten that bit of snark before, I believe the user in question was banned here for a few months over a plethora of issues.

I’d advise you to either answer my question or backtrack. Saying nothing is also an option. I’m sure you can think of more.

(Edited)
 
Why not start her off with a nice kiss boy! There is no need to go stampeding off towards the... oh, this is a family forum. Monty Python can get a bit naughty, just like those stampeding towards awesome Level One as quickly as possible, then to Level Two. So cool, get the props! Impress all before you. Instant gratification!

Isn't it mostly about gaining access to purchase even more expensive motors and kits? A Level Two who doesn't understand the CG/CP relationship... NEVER!... well maybe never.

LPR and MPR "kiddie" motors are safe, need a certification for more power. That never worked for me as just by using kiddie motors I could always seem to frighten the Level Two and Three RSO's. I asked my old RSO if one of my scratchers on an H would be a good idea, he said "NO," as he always did. Should I attempt a Level One, I asked? Just got a pained look in return. I did eventually get that Level One and now can fly three or more Estes F15's at once! YIPPEE!

Why is it that loading an 18mm AT case or even some 24/29mm Hobbyline motors was MUCH harder than at my mighty level one? Even with certified members watching my reloading technique carefully for the Level One, it was cake compared to those small kiddie case reloads. Just don't get it.

Someday, with lots of book learning and spending the big bucks, I will attempt the glory and accolades of a Level Two certification. No longer a Padawan learner I can homebrew research motors and RSO the big boys! Doubleplus good! :)
 
smstachwick said:
I’ve gotten that bit of snark before, I believe the user in question was banned here for a few months over a plethora of issues.

I’d advise you to either answer my question or backtrack. Saying nothing is also an option. I’m sure you can think of more.

(Edited)
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The answer to your question is, No. They cannot legally sue you.
Checking your NAR certification level, shows you have no HPR certification. As you have not actually gone through the certification process and lived it, once you have, and have experienced the frustration of random additional rules, perhaps you might reconsider your position. This is why the rules need to be documented. Not made up on the day. So that anyone attempting certification has clarity of what is required.
You can change your signature at any time should you not wish it used. That is your choice and I'd remind you that you wrote your signature. I have not said anything that you have not written yourself.
@Peartree or @cwbullet can you please review and advise if you require me to amend anything
 
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Daddyisabar said:
Why not start her off with a nice kiss boy! There is no need to go stampeding off towards the... oh, this is a family forum. Monty Python can get a bit naughty, just like those stampeding towards awesome Level One as quickly as possible, then to Level Two. So cool, get the props! Impress all before you. Instant gratification!

Isn't it mostly about gaining access to purchase even more expensive motors and kits? A Level Two who doesn't understand the CG/CP relationship... NEVER!... well maybe never.

LPR and MPR "kiddie" motors are safe, need a certification for more power. That never worked for me as just by using kiddie motors I could always seem to frighten the Level Two and Three RSO's. I asked my old RSO if one of my scratchers on an H would be a good idea, he said "NO," as he always did. Should I attempt a Level One, I asked? Just got a pained look in return. I did eventually get that Level One and now can fly three or more Estes F15's at once! YIPPEE!

Why is it that loading an 18mm AT case or even some 24/29mm Hobbyline motors was MUCH harder than at my mighty level one? Even with certified members watching my reloading technique carefully for the Level One, it was cake compared to those small kiddie case reloads. Just don't get it.

Someday, with lots of book learning and spending the big bucks, I will attempt the glory and accolades of a Level Two certification. No longer a Padawan learner I can homebrew research motors and RSO the big boys! Doubleplus good! :)
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Glasgow Kiss? Keep It Simple Stupid? Cheek? Lips? Where are you going with this? :)
 

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