Corn Starch an Issue?

[TheAnomoly]

Hello all,

I am brand new to this forum and joined because I want to get into more serious rocketry than what I have done in the past with just Estes rocket builds. I am looking to make a sugar rocket motor, I am just static testing the motor, no launch. And the only powdered sugar I can find in local stores, contains corn starch in it. Will having corn starch affect the performance greatly? or is it small enough that it is not all that worrisome? I'm sorry if this was already asked but I did several searches and can't seem to find the answer I was looking for other than mentioning that it does affect the performance, which is obvious, composition affects performance but by how much and is it worth it?

Thank you

 

[rharshberger]

Sorry information related to experimental rocketry which DIY motors are is restricted to the research section. Please read the requirements and apply for entry, then formulation info is available.

 

[TheAnomoly]

thanks sorry about that. I didn't realize that.

 

[cbrarick]

i'd like to take a moment to remind TheAnomoly that you can't actually fly research motors unless you're tripoli L2.
I'd also encourage you to get a mentor. You can learn a lot with the right one...

Makin' motors off the net is dangerous and not worth it.
It could literally burn down your house, or even kill you.
Making grains without understanding geometry will cost lots of hardware before you "get it right"

Having said all of that, EX can be a lot of fun, gives you lots of science to learn, not to mention manufacturing & process control

If you're going for it because you think it will be cheaper, I'd encourage you to look at the over all expenditure, not to mention practice in order to get to where you're breaking even.

 

[TheAnomoly]

Thank you for you words of wisdom, Where would I be able to find a mentor? My intention was to never fly it. Just build a D size motor and test. For the sake of not starting off on the wrong foot, I won't be making it anymore instead look for a mentor. I plan to go for tiploli L1 in the next few months and start construction soon. I was looking at the Darkstar Jr. from Wildman for my L1.

 

[Onebadhawk]

Thank you for you words of wisdom, Where would I be able to find a mentor? My intention was to never fly it. Just build a D size motor and test. For the sake of not starting off on the wrong foot, I won't be making it anymore instead look for a mentor. I plan to go for tiploli L1 in the next few months and start construction soon. I was looking at the Darkstar Jr. from Wildman for my L1.

Where are you located ???
What part of the country ??

Teddy

 

[MikeyDSlagle]

i'd like to take a moment to remind TheAnomoly that you can't actually fly research motors unless you're tripoli L2.
I'd also encourage you to get a mentor. You can learn a lot with the right one...

Makin' motors off the net is dangerous and not worth it.
It could literally burn down your house, or even kill you.
Making grains without understanding geometry will cost lots of hardware before you "get it right"

Having said all of that, EX can be a lot of fun, gives you lots of science to learn, not to mention manufacturing & process control

If you're going for it because you think it will be cheaper, I'd encourage you to look at the over all expenditure, not to mention practice in order to get to where you're breaking even.

This is not true. Anyone can build a D size sugar motor and fly it as long as they follow the correct NFPA rules and what not. They may have to get a waiver? They can't fly it at a TRA launch unless they are L2 and it is a research launch, and can't fly it at all at NAR. I am not sure all the details of research or EX motors so I could be mistaken.

 

[TheAnomoly]

I live in Ohio, most of my time is in Columbus, Ohio but home is Cleveland.

 

[Zeus-cat]

Tripoli Mid Ohio is a Tripoli club and they fly on a farm near South Charleston, Ohio. Check out their website at https://tripolimidohio.com/ Their club president and some other members make their own motors, but they use APCP as far as I know. I don't know if anyone in the club uses sugar. They just went on hiatus until March, but they may launch before then if it warms up.

 

[TheAnomoly]

Thank you, you guys are super helpful!

 

[Onebadhawk]

Yep,,
Zeus beat me too it..
Trip mid Ohio..
Ima send Gary D an email to get in on this..

Teddy

 

[Zeus-cat]

Anomaly, if you want to fly before March you are welcome to come out to a WSR launch. We fly under NAR, so no homemade motors, but our high power field is only 11 miles away from the TMO high power field. Look us up at WSR703.org.

 

[samb]

I wonder where all the sugar motors being made from Youtube videos and MAKE: type tutorials are being flown ?

 

[FredA]

Keep to FAR101 and you can fly what you want where you want.....assuming there are no local laws on rocketry or a fire-ban, etc.....

Of course, landowner permission is always advisable.

 

[rstaff3]

Actually, I thought last time I saw a discussion on sugar motors that the conclusion was you needed a LEUP unless you mixed and used on site. But that could have be dated or incorrect. Might be good to confirm where that stands before you plan to get into them. I bet someone here can give that answer.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Actually, I thought last time I saw a discussion on sugar motors that the conclusion was you needed a LEUP unless you mixed and used on site. But that could have be dated or incorrect. Might be good to confirm where that stands before you plan to get into them. I bet someone here can give that answer.

The “List of Explosive Materials”, which is the reference for federal regulations, lists potassium nitrate explosive mixtures. Our position must always be that propellant, by design, is never an explosive mixture.


Steve Shannon

 

[TheAnomoly]

Anomaly, if you want to fly before March you are welcome to come out to a WSR launch. We fly under NAR, so no homemade motors, but our high power field is only 11 miles away from the TMO high power field. Look us up at WSR703.org.

Thank you for the invite. I might make my way over just to see some HPR!

 

[rstaff3]

Well, only one position matters. The argument is that the wording is basically the same as that for APCP and we had to go to court to turn that around. Our ruling did not affect other oxidizers.

 

[TheAnomoly]

Yep,,
Zeus beat me too it..
Trip mid Ohio..
Ima send Gary D an email to get in on this..

Teddy

Thanks, getting in touch with some people from there would be a good start for me.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Well, only one position matters. The argument is that the wording is basically the same as that for APCP and we had to go to court to turn that around. Our ruling did not affect other oxidizers.

Not exactly. ATF had included APCP Propellant Mixtures as well as AP Explosive mixtures on the list before the lawsuit. Winning the lawsuit resulted in their removal of APCP Propellant Mixtures. AP Explosive Mixtures are still on the list and rightfully so.


Steve Shannon

 

[rstaff3]

Not exactly. ATF had included APCP Propellant Mixtures as well as AP Explosive mixtures on the list before the lawsuit. Winning the lawsuit resulted in their removal of APCP Propellant Mixtures. AP Explosive Mixtures are still on the list and rightfully so.


Steve Shannon

I forgot that distinction. I thought they basically added propellant mixtures to the exemptions, just like BP under 62.5g.

 

[Steve Shannon]

I forgot that distinction. I thought they basically added propellant mixtures to the exemptions, just like BP under 62.5g.

Here’s how it’s now stated on the most current version:
Ammonium perchlorate explosive mixtures (excluding ammonium
perchlorate composite propellant
(APCP)).
And here is how BP is listed:
Black powder.
Black powder based explosive mixtures.
Black powder substitutes.

I don’t know where or how an exemption is made for BP rocket motors, I’m sorry to say.


Steve Shannon

 

[jderimig]

Are you an The OSU student?

When you are in Cleveland hook up with the NOTRA club.

 

[rstaff3]

Here’s how it’s now stated on the most current version:
Ammonium perchlorate explosive mixtures (excluding ammonium
perchlorate composite propellant
(APCP)).
And here is how BP is listed:
Black powder.
Black powder based explosive mixtures.
Black powder substitutes.

I don’t know where or how an exemption is made for BP rocket motors, I’m sorry to say.


Steve Shannon

Like I said, I thought the list only said AP explosive mixtures and at some point the BATFE decided that APCP was in that category. Then that was changed as we all know.

I never saw the list after the win and I assumed they handled the exemption in the same way as BP. But I guess not. There was a paragraph in another section of the regs that listed the BP exemption. I don't have the reference to point to.

I wish I could find where the sugar motor status was discussed. I thought SS2S decided to mix on site due to the interpretation that I offered. I do know our lawsuit had no effect on Kn an An mixtures.

The folks posting to the sugar thread in the closed forum could comment more.

 

[rstaff3]

Steve, I found one of the threads I was thinking of in the research forum https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?130710-LEUP-for-KNSB

Based on that, it seems like you are OK if under 62.5g. Also a LEUP isn't needed if you mix on site and store properly.

But that's still old info and may have changed. I think I'll shut up after stating that if I were going to try sugar motors (again), I would do some more research.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Steve, I found one of the threads I was thinking of in the research forum https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?130710-LEUP-for-KNSB

Based on that, it seems like you are OK if under 62.5g. Also a LEUP isn't needed if you mix on site and store properly.

But that's still old info and may have changed. I think I'll shut up after stating that if I were going to try sugar motors (again), I would do some more research.

I completely agree with you. Anyone who is interested must make themselves aware of all the legal issues. The rules can be very confusing and even conflict with each other.

 

[TheAnomoly]

Are you an The OSU student?

When you are in Cleveland hook up with the NOTRA club.

Yes, I am an OSU student, will be graduating in May. I will be looking into their rocketry club as well, but I will be graduating in May, so I wont have much time with them.

 

[Onebadhawk]

Yes, I am an OSU student, will be graduating in May. I will be looking into their rocketry club as well, but I will be graduating in May, so I wont have much time with them.

Ohh yeahh,,
That's it Anomoly,,
If you had your choice of who will give you fantastic info and lead you down the right path it's jderimig..
But John, I thought you were in Northern Ohio and Gary D was more south..
Oh well,, see if you can get them both together,, lol..

Teddy

 

[K'Tesh]

@TheAnomoly

Welcome to the forum... If you're ever in Dayton, you can always look up eRockets. They have regular build sessions (once a week IINM), and a great selection of kits (and folks who build them). You won't find me there though... I'm currently in China living and working as an English teacher.

 

[TheAnomoly]

@TheAnomoly

Welcome to the forum... If you're ever in Dayton, you can always look up eRockets. They have regular build sessions (once a week IINM), and a great selection of kits (and folks who build them). You won't find me there though... I'm currently in China living and working as an English teacher.

Ya after May I will be in Dayton. I have a job offer at Wright Patterson AFB, and I will probably be taking it. So post May, I will be close to Dayton and Columbus.