Computer Issue - Reward Offered

[eugenefl]

PART 1

Okay folks, I've been into computers/IT for nearly 10 years now and have seen similar issues, but I'm stumped on this one. I'm working on a computer for my ex-boss and am struggling to fix an issue that stemmed from a failed removal of Norton Internet Securities Suite. I've spent near 8 hours and two house calls attempting to resolve this problem and am tapped out mentally. For the one lucky person that offers a solution other than reinstalling Windows XP Pro, I'll post a $30 credit towards a gift certificate of your choice, PayPal cash transfer, Money Order, you name it. Below are the details:

COMPUTER: Pentium 4 3.0GHz, 512MB RAM, 40% HDD Space Available, WindowsXP Pro SP2, Purchased in 2003

APPLICATIONS/HISTORY: This computer started out like any other - simple Email and Internet usage. Over the years, they've added lots of software and hardware devices such as Palm LifeDrive & HotSync software, Garmin POI (and other apps) Sync software, iPod USB Dock, HP OfficeJet Suite, HP LaserJet 2840 Software Suite, Linksys wireless print server software, MSN Messenger, Norton Internet Securities (full blown suite with software firewall, a/v, spyware, etc.), Microsoft Intellimouse/Keyboard software/hardware, Microsoft Plus! software, Kodak Gallery/Sync software, and the list goes on.


PROBLEMS/OBSERVATIONS: Primary complaint is that the computer is slow (and for good reason). 16+ minute reboot times, from shutdown to fully loaded desktop, were typical. My reason for the housecall initially was to configure an HP LJ 2840 All-in-One for network scanning.

The computer has exceeded the 512MB of RAM initially supplied to perform basic functions when in use. At rest, with no activity, nearly 425MB of RAM is being used, but whenever apps are launched the computer relies on hard disk space for memory swapping. At this point I should have stopped what I was doing, requested he buy more RAM, or suggested uninstalling apps before proceeding. Accessing the HP Toolbox to configure the HP 2840 was extremely slow. The mouse pointer would skip around the screen rather than scroll normally. Frustrated, I decided to perform some basic maintenance to see if I could get some marginal improvements on performance (i.e. defrag, clear temp files, run A/V scan & update, improve XP /themes visuals for "best performance", kill unnecessary apps & processes in "running processes", etc.) Anyone that understands my situation thus far knows this took a lot of time given the computer's condition.

Even more frustrated with being unable to perform the simple maintenance, I began suggesting we uninstall some applications to free up memory. Client declined to uninstall productivity apps (Palm One, Garmin, etc.) citing that they worked fine before. So I suggested removing Norton which I personally find to be bloated to begin with and offered a free alternative such as Avast or AVG. Client obliged seeing how money was going to be saved regardless. This is where everything goes south.

After what appears to be a successful uninstall, once restarted, the computer was acting crazy at boot - ie. Desktop Themes & taskbar would not load, attached devices & their software started failing and generating errors, mouse was even choppier, and worse - Internet Explorer would not load websites. On the positive, the memory in use at rest was down to about 212MB. Of course, when I look into running services (services.msc), almost all Windows services failed to load.

 

[troj]

The first thing I'd suggest is a visit to some of the virus resolution sites, and start using the various tools they'll reference. My guess is part of the problem started with something in there that Norton either couldn't detect/remove, or didn't fully detect/remove.

My guess is those same sites will also help you find out how to finish the removal of the Symantec products. Symantec also usually has KB articles on how to resolve failed uninstalls of their products -- I've had to do that before.

Even 'standard' tools like AdAware and Spybot Search & Destroy would likely provide some value, in this case.

-Kevin

 

[dwmzmm]

I'm not a computer expert (far from it!!), but does that computer have the
"system restore" option? I've used it a few times when the computer I'm using now goes bonkers, and that usually solves the problem.

Also, just the other day, I got a message from Microsoft Windows for "new"
updates ready to be installed. Good. I click the button to begin the process,
and see one of the install included the Window Microsoft Vista. Promptly
cancelled the update. Heard too many horror stories on the Vista messing up
computers.

I'm sure others who know this subject better than I do will chime in, as I'm
also interested in learning what are the best solution(s) to your problems.
Good luck.

 

[eugenefl]

PART 2

TROUBLESHOOTING:

(WinXP Pro is set in Workgroup Mode, no password on login, user account has Admin Rights)

1. Attempted to restart with "Last Known Good Configuration" - No Success
2. Restarted computer, booted to WinXP Pro System disk, ran CHKDSK /r - "found one or multiple errors and fixed them all", but still having same symptoms as before - No Success.
3. Attempted to use "Restore Point" - getting failed error stating the restore service no started. Attempted to start service, but failed because too many other dependencies/services did not start.
4. Unable to start *any* service manually.
5. Resorted to performing in-place upgrade aka "Repair Installation". Repair installation was successful, computer booted with themes again and apps still functioning.
6. Installed WindowsXP SP3 after "Repair Installation"
7. FINALLY upgraded to 1.5GB of RAM, much better performance.

Continuing issues after "Repair Installation"....

- Internet Explorer will not load websites. Able to PING external/internal IP addresses, resolve domain names (i.e. ping www.google.com
- Installed FireFox, still unable to load websites.
- Suspected bad Winsock, reset Winsock catalog, ran Winsock Repair Tool - No Success.
- Reset TCP/IP (via white paper at Microsoft), No Success.
- Restarted in Safe Mode w/ Networking, able to access Internet via Internet Explorer.
- Disabled all applications on start (via msconfig) and began half-split troubleshooting method for user's profile. Restarted computer, user profile still unable to view webpages.
- Re-enabled applications and disabled all services on boot (via msconfig), restarted computer, user still unable to load webpages.
- Created new profile with Admin rights, new profile results in No Success.
- Examined Protocal details (msinfo32) under Components>Network>Protocol and ensured all components match what Microsoft says should be available.

SUMMARY: In a nutshell, what I set out to accomplish is still unresolved and I have now created a larger problem. I am tired, frustrated, and officially condemning Norton to the hottest place beneath the earth's surface or that spiritual world we call hell. Unfortunately, I am now liable and on the hook to fix this issue.

REWARD DETAILS: I will offer the reward to the person whose solution fixes the problem. I will give each reply in this thread their shot at fixing it, but ultimately, it's the one answer that fixes the problem. I'll answer any questions anyone might have because I'm sure I have missed something somewhere in my troubleshooting documentation. Should more than one person contribute in part to resolving the issue (i.e. collaboration of ideas), I reserve the right to partially split the reward.

 

[eugenefl]

The first thing I'd suggest is a visit to some of the virus resolution sites, and start using the various tools they'll reference. My guess is part of the problem started with something in there that Norton either couldn't detect/remove, or didn't fully detect/remove.

My guess is those same sites will also help you find out how to finish the removal of the Symantec products. Symantec also usually has KB articles on how to resolve failed uninstalls of their products -- I've had to do that before.

Even 'standard' tools like AdAware and Spybot Search & Destroy would likely provide some value, in this case.

-Kevin

I have such a disdain for Norton/Symantec that I haven't really started researching their site although Google searches have brought up Norton KB articles in the results. I will more than likely spend some time on their site today reading. I've also come across articles that cite AdAware and Spybot providing clues, but I haven't exactly seen where or how to use those tools to extract those clues.

 

[paparoof]

...other than reinstalling Windows...

Even though that's your best bet....

Assuming you're uninstalling through the "add/remove programs" utility in the control panel (and not by manually deleting them from the "Program Files" directory), you did most of the things I would do. But I have a couple more thoughts.

First thing I do when diagnosing someone elses XP machine with similar symptoms:

1. Physically disconnect Internet connection.
2. Click Start > Run > type in "msconfig" and hit enter. Go to the startup tab and uncheck everything in the list.
3. Reboot

That gets all the startup items (the one's you knew about and the ones you didn't know about) to stop loading at startup. If the machine runs fine at that point, then you know it's one of those startup programs running amok. They'll still be in the list, so go back in and (one at a time!) recheck them and reboot to see if the machine goes back into the old symptoms. If you hit one that turns the machine to mush again, you've found your culprit - kill it!

The second thought I have is that if Norton didn't uninstall correctly, you could try reinstalling it in order to put everything back like it was and then re-attempt the uninstall.

If none of the above frees the machine up, I'd shut it down, open the box and re-seat everything. Power cords, IDE/SATA cables, RAM, etc.

And then reinstall Windows.... irate:

 

[eugenefl]

I'm not a computer expert (far from it!!), but does that computer have the
"system restore" option? I've used it a few times when the computer I'm using now goes bonkers, and that usually solves the problem.

Also, just the other day, I got a message from Microsoft Windows for "new"
updates ready to be installed. Good. I click the button to begin the process,
and see one of the install included the Window Microsoft Vista. Promptly
cancelled the update. Heard too many horror stories on the Vista messing up
computers.

I'm sure others who know this subject better than I do will chime in, as I'm
also interested in learning what are the best solution(s) to your problems.
Good luck.

You beat me to my second post which described attempting the System Restore option, but thanks for your input.

 

[Pantherjon]

Sounds as tho the resgistry got hosed..Try using one of the free downloadable registry repair utilities like Eusing Registry Cleaner or Abexo..

 

[eugenefl]

Even though that's your best bet....

Assuming you're uninstalling through the "add/remove programs" utility in the control panel (and not by manually deleting them from the "Program Files" directory), you did most of the things I would do. But I have a couple more thoughts.

First thing I do when diagnosing someone elses XP machine with similar symptoms:

1. Physically disconnect Internet connection.
2. Click Start > Run > type in "msconfig" and hit enter. Go to the startup tab and uncheck everything in the list.
3. Reboot

That gets all the startup items (the one's you knew about and the ones you didn't know about) to stop loading at startup. If the machine runs fine at that point, then you know it's one of those startup programs running amok. They'll still be in the list, so go back in and (one at a time!) recheck them and reboot to see if the machine goes back into the old symptoms. If you hit one that turns the machine to mush again, you've found your culprit - kill it!

The second thought I have is that if Norton didn't uninstall correctly, you could try reinstalling it in order to put everything back like it was and then re-attempt the uninstall.

If none of the above frees the machine up, I'd shut it down, open the box and re-seat everything. Power cords, IDE/SATA cables, RAM, etc.

And then reinstall Windows.... irate:

Some notes to add in response to your suggestions:

- Deleted registry entries and system folders pertaining to "Norton" or "Symantec" (after experiencing lack of internet, during troubleshooting)
- performed msconfig half split method where one attempts to isolate program or service affecting issue.
- Unable to reinstall Norton. It came preloaded with the machine and they essentially renewed the license whenever it bugged them. So, no dice there. There aren't and discs to reload from.
- Checked, reseated cables when added memory.

The only variable I did not perform was to physically disconnect network cable during troubleshooting, but I will add that to my "to do" list during Round 3 of troubleshooting.

The oddest thing is that IE works when in Safe Mode with Networking enabled. Essentially, it's because in Safe Mode isn't loading a specific device driver or application. In theory, restarting the computer with all services and applications disabled using msconfig should also cover most of these items. Being that Norton was the changing variable with the poop hit the fan, I can't see what Safe Mode is doing differently than having everything disabled on startup. Strange.

I'm fairly convinced a reinstall is imminent. Of course, this HP came with no restore discs and I am hoping the application to create a set of restore discs is still functioning. The "Recovery" partition is still on the hard drive so I might still have some options.

 

[eugenefl]

Sounds as tho the resgistry got hosed..Try using one of the free downloadable registry repair utilities like Eusing Registry Cleaner or Abexo..

I performed an in-place re-installation of WindowsXP. I figured the core registry values would be corrected. At this point, desperation has set in, so I will give anything a try. I'll add your suggestion to my "To Do" list.

 

[paparoof]

- Disabled all applications on start (via msconfig)

Oh well, there goes my idea. Strange indeed.

How come a complete Windows re-install is outta the question (I didn't want the reward anyway)? Sounds like you can still get to the data to back it up first (don't forget email and address books).

With the amount of time you've already put into this, you've already spent more time than it would take to do a full-on backup, delete the partitions and reinstall Windows.

And unless this is a coincidental hardware issue (doesn't sound like one) a complete reinstall is pretty much guaranteed to fix it all.

 

[bguff]

Have you run MemTest? If not, i would run MemTest right away. I have seen a computer using PC3200 memory in a computer designed for PC2700 do similar things. I've seen a computer with bad memory, do weird things as well.

Have you tried a different power supply? If anyone added new hardware components recently, have you tried using a larger power supply?
Have you tried removing all unneccessary components from the computer (network cards, modems, sound cards, etc) and then see if the computer still acts flaky?
Are you certain the motherboard is ok?

 

[paparoof]

Have you tried a different power supply?

I was just thinking about that too...

 

[eugenefl]

Oh well, there goes my idea. Strange indeed.

How come a complete Windows re-install is outta the question (I didn't want the reward anyway)? Sounds like you can still get to the data to back it up first (don't forget email and address books).

With the amount of time you've already put into this, you've already spent more time than it would take to do a full-on backup, delete the partitions and reinstall Windows.

And unless this is a coincidental hardware issue (doesn't sound like one) a complete reinstall is pretty much guaranteed to fix it all.

I personally despise Microsoft exactly for this reason. I can't stand that they integrate TCP/IP into their operating system and do not allow one the option to reinstall or "fix it." In my short 10 years it always seems like a reinstall is in order.

I'm fishing for any last answers that someone might have out there. I've already resigned to the fact that I will have to reinstall. Inevitably, something is always missed in a reformat/reinstall and I can't imagine what kind of data is going to be missed. These people have everything on that computer- music, iTunes playlists, movies, pictures, Quicken files, Palm profiles, Outlook profiles, and who knows what else. Lastly, the perception remains: I broke the computer and now have to reinstall Windows. For some reason, they were hesitant to spend $49 on a 1GB RAM upgrade. Now I have to suggest an external hard drive or some other way of backing up data. I hate to use my own personal hardware to fix other people's issues.

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY THE LAST TIME I FIX ANYONE'S PERSONAL COMPUTER. I ALWAYS get burned. Something ALWAYS goes wrong and I'm tired of it.

 

[astrowolf67]

At one time I, Norton's was all I'd use. Four years ago, we had upgraded to Norton's 05 as soon as it came out, and, our computer at that time really slowed down. Two years ago, we got our current computer (2.5G Celeron, 1G ram). We also purchased Norton's 07, with 3 user liscense. Two weeks later, I had it removed from all computers, and took advantage of their satisfaction guarantee. Even our newest computer would take almost 10 minutes to boot up, with Norton's hogging most every resource there was. We switched to McAfee, and have been happy ever since. If you ever get it straightened out, I wouldn't even consider Norton's for half a second.

All that being said, I can't help with your problem, but, my first step would be more memory. Then, if that didn't work, myself, I'd just do a total reinstall of the OS.

 

[dwmzmm]

Strange, I'm using the Norton/Symantec and haven't had any issues. There
was a time not too long ago when it took like 20 - 30 minutes for the start
page to load before I could login. After doing some troubleshooting, found
that this computer had too many startup programs. I deleted most of these
and that pretty much took care of the problem.

 

[paparoof]

I'm fishing for any last answers that someone might have out there. I've already resigned to the fact that I will have to reinstall. Inevitably, something is always missed in a reformat/reinstall and I can't imagine what kind of data is going to be missed. These people have everything on that computer- music, iTunes playlists, movies, pictures, Quicken files, Palm profiles, Outlook profiles, and who knows what else. Lastly, the perception remains: I broke the computer and now have to reinstall Windows. For some reason, they were hesitant to spend $49 on a 1GB RAM upgrade. Now I have to suggest an external hard drive or some other way of backing up data. I hate to use my own personal hardware to fix other people's issues.

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY THE LAST TIME I FIX ANYONE'S PERSONAL COMPUTER. I ALWAYS get burned. Something ALWAYS goes wrong and I'm tired of it.

The only thing I have to offer you at this point is empathy.

I have been EXACTLY where you are right now, many, many times. Now when people want me to fix their computer, I dive straight into this: I'll reinstall Windows for $150 and they have to do all their own backups cause I don't want the liability and associated guilt that comes with missing something (or finding out too late that the backup was corrupted). Usually they run away as soon as I say "$150".

Big pat on the back dood - I understand.

 

[eugenefl]

Have you run MemTest? If not, i would run MemTest right away. I have seen a computer using PC3200 memory in a computer designed for PC2700 do similar things. I've seen a computer with bad memory, do weird things as well.

Have you tried a different power supply? If anyone added new hardware components recently, have you tried using a larger power supply?
Have you tried removing all unneccessary components from the computer (network cards, modems, sound cards, etc) and then see if the computer still acts flaky?
Are you certain the motherboard is ok?

Aside from the MEMTEST suggestion, how would any of the other components affect successful troubleshooting such as:

- able to ping internal/external IP addresses.
- able to use Internet Explorer in Safe Mode w/ Networking, but not in the user's profile

The memory installed are both PC3200 modules.

All components mentioned above (sound card, video, network) are integrated on the motherboard. No new hardware that would depend on the computer's power supply has been installed recently. All USB devices are unplugged and nothing other than a stick of memory has been added inside of the computer. Using another power supply would require either A) I buy a new one for the sake of troubleshooting purposes, or B) yank the one out of my computer which I would be unwilling to do. I still don't see where a power supply would fail to create an issue such as the one described above.

If I suspect a motherboard issue, I'll go ahead and attempt a Windows reinstall before I make that claim.

I'll run MEMTEST and see if that doesn't turn anything up.

Thank you for your suggestions and input.

 

[dwmzmm]

The computer repair people around here usually charge somewhere like $60
per hour.

 

[FredA]

Check your hard drive for bad sectors. DeFrag too.
Check your thermal solutions to make sure you are not overheating and the system is throttling.

 

[paparoof]

Is the box really, really dusty inside? in that environment, things don't cool properly and that could easily stress a power supply to the point of weakening or failing.

I really can't explain this well, but the thing that got me thinking power supply was when you mentioned web pages loading from safe mode but node when fully booted in normal mode. The only difference with safe mode (as I understand it) is that it doesn't start most services or load most drivers. drivers = hardware, hardware = power.

I would reinstall before swapping out power supplies n' stuff.

Hey here's an idea, PM me your phone number, I'll call you and pretend to give you some horrible news and you can use that as your excuse to leave - just like getting out of a bad blind date!

 

[eugenefl]

The only thing I have to offer you at this point is empathy.

I have been EXACTLY where you are right now, many, many times. Now when people want me to fix their computer, I dive straight into this: I'll reinstall Windows for $150 and they have to do all their own backups cause I don't want the liability and associated guilt that comes with missing something (or finding out too late that the backup was corrupted). Usually they run away as soon as I say "$150".

Big pat on the back dood - I understand.

What's worse is this used to be my old boss and not some stranger whom up until this point I've had a stellar reputation with. He's one of my best referrals, and by the way I am currently unemployed. What's funny is that if we would have originally spent $49 on a stick of memory I wouldn't even be here in this situation. His house if 45 minutes away. I've made 2 round trips already, and on each night, been out there I got lost because I left late at night resulting in some 1hr 30 minute rides home. Some nights I'd leave screaming my head off because I'm so frustrated. I am a generally nice guy and have a hard time saying "no." I wish I just would have said "no" from the get go. Of course, he knows I'm unemployed and have "nothing but time" on my hands. Bad situation overall.

Thank you for your condolensces. Time to go drink a 6-pack. It's about lunchtime.

 

[eugenefl]

The computer repair people around here usually charge somewhere like $60
per hour.

He'd be about $480 in debt with me right now which is why most people refuse to even get in home help anymore. Computers can be had for so cheaply that if you don't know what you're doing you may as well buy a new one. Heck, I know what I'm doing and I'm ready to buy him a new computer.

 

[eugenefl]

Check your hard drive for bad sectors. DeFrag too.
Check your thermal solutions to make sure you are not overheating and the system is throttling.

Ran a chkdsk /r to isolate and bad sectors. Defrag and temp files done early in troubleshooting. Fans are clean and computer operates in an open air environment.

 

[dwmzmm]

He'd be about $480 in debt with me right now which is why most people refuse to even get in home help anymore. Computers can be had for so cheaply that if you don't know what you're doing you may as well buy a new one. Heck, I know what I'm doing and I'm ready to buy him a new computer.

In the future, maybe you should have your potential client sign a release
or disclaimer should there be problems with their computer(s) that turns out
to be unsolvable. This way, you can at least get paid for the service call.
Our previous laptop had so many problems that I refused to have any attempts to get it repaired. It was a fellow model rocketeer (who's also a
computer expert, I might add) who suggested it'll be cheaper to just buy
a new computer than waste money trying to repair it.

 

[eugenefl]

Is the box really, really dusty inside? in that environment, things don't cool properly and that could easily stress a power supply to the point of weakening or failing.

I really can't explain this well, but the thing that got me thinking power supply was when you mentioned web pages loading from safe mode but node when fully booted in normal mode. The only difference with safe mode (as I understand it) is that it doesn't start most services or load most drivers. drivers = hardware, hardware = power.

I would reinstall before swapping out power supplies n' stuff.

Hey here's an idea, PM me your phone number, I'll call you and pretend to give you some horrible news and you can use that as your excuse to leave - just like getting out of a bad blind date!

I was actually surprised to see a fairly clean computer. Their house is immaculate and has wood floors throughout. I know they have in-home cleaning services which would probably explain the "always clean" and dust free environment.

Thanks for the horrible news idea, but unfortunately that's been played out in real life which delayed me going to their house to begin with. (Unemployed, bad relationship on the verge of separation, uncle passed away, and my car recently broke down forcing a few days between troubleshooting this issue.)

I'm light though. I keep my head up and just hold out for the best. For those spiritual folks out there, I still don't understand why I get to go through all of this all at once. It sucks.

 

[eugenefl]

In the future, maybe you should have your potential client sign a release
or disclaimer should there be problems with their computer(s) that turns out
to be unsolvable. This way, you can at least get paid for the service call.
Our previous laptop had so many problems that I refused to have any attempts to get it repaired. It was a fellow model rocketeer (who's also a
computer expert, I might add) who suggested it'll be cheaper to just buy
a new computer than waste money trying to repair it.

I experienced difficulty early on in convincing the client that $49 for a memory upgrade would more than likely resolve the issues. Client = former employer. I bent over backwards and am now suffering a broken back so to speak.

 

[troj]

- Internet Explorer will not load websites. Able to PING external/internal IP addresses, resolve domain names (i.e. ping www.google.com
- Installed FireFox, still unable to load websites.

Based on your description of what happened, I'm not surprised.

Norton Internet Security has hooks into the bits that allow web pages to load, in order to scan for problems and secure the system. Since the install failed, those hooks are still in there, and are quite broken.

Take a look at this Symantec KB article: https://service1.symantec.com/SUPPO...7410a98f5e64e3be85256ede00518d9d?OpenDocument

While you may have disdain for Symantec, I've found they're very good on providing utilities to clean up after failed uninstalls. Because of the hooks programs like this place, if they don't uninstall 100%, they can wreak havoc.

Once you've got that cleaned up, I still suspect you have other issues, and you'll want to run Ad-Aware and Spybot. Both are available from download.com, and very intuitive to use.

I'd start with the KB article; if it's not for the right version or right product, then find the one that is. Then, after that's clean, run the other two programs.

-Kevin

 

[RoyGreen]

Mo' Memry, Mo' Memry, Mo' Memry.

just to 1 gig will help immensely, but its cheap enough that you should go to 2 or 3.

They are STUPID STUPID STUPID if they don't want to install more memory.

If they don't want to spend $50-100 on memory, then turn around and walk away from them. They deserve the computer they have.

 

[pmlkid]

don"t use norton they stink!!!!!! i use kaspersky anti-virus give this a try micro trend house call its free no download