Come on, Boeing.

Shop deals on ebay
the model rocket show
Advertise with us
The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
This is what happens when a company is penny wise and pound foolish with cuts to quality control operations. A $150 million demand from Alaska Airlines and a threat from United to cancel Max 10 orders. Those cost savings from cutting back on quality control don’t look so smart now, huh?

How do upper level management people justify their jobs when people much lower on the food chain seem to know as much or more about how to make smart decisions?


https://fortune.com/2024/01/26/alas...ve-calhoun-reparations-damages-grounding/amp/
 
brockrwood said:
This is what happens when a company is penny wise and pound foolish with cuts to quality control operations. A $150 million demand from Alaska Airlines and a threat from United to cancel Max 10 orders. Those cost savings from cutting back on quality control don’t look so smart now, huh?

How do upper level management people justify their jobs when people much lower on the food chain seem to know as much or more about how to make smart decisions?


https://fortune.com/2024/01/26/alas...ve-calhoun-reparations-damages-grounding/amp/
Click to expand...
When money gets tight quality is cut because it is not seen as a value added cost by the finance guys. "The difference between an airline guy and and a finance guy is that for a nickel more an hour a finance guy will go to work in a dog food factory." - Andyism
 
Buster said:
...for a nickel more an hour a finance guy will go to work in a dog food factory." - Andyism
Click to expand...
So will just about anybody. I don't know any...none...pilots hanging around the regionals just because they like the local airline they work for. But you are correct in that the manufacturers don't hire the right people and are not willing to slow production to ensure those people are towing the line.
 
Bravo52 said:
So will just about anybody. I don't know any...none...pilots hanging around the regionals just because they like the local airline they work for. But you are correct in that the manufacturers don't hire the right people and are not willing to slow production to ensure those people are toeing the line.
Click to expand...
Yes but pilots moving up still stay in the airline bidnezz
 
brockrwood said:
This is what happens when a company is penny wise and pound foolish with cuts to quality control operations. A $150 million demand from Alaska Airlines and a threat from United to cancel Max 10 orders. Those cost savings from cutting back on quality control don’t look so smart now, huh?

How do upper level management people justify their jobs when people much lower on the food chain seem to know as much or more about how to make smart decisions?


https://fortune.com/2024/01/26/alas...ve-calhoun-reparations-damages-grounding/amp/
Click to expand...
Very similar situation at Norfolk Southern. They had a huge derailment (that they're still paying to clean up) that was largely, if not directly, caused by a lack of maintenance and staff reductions. As a result of the derailment, they've lost a Billion dollars and to fix their balance sheets they are... reducing staff. Brilliant.
 
Buster said:
Yes but pilots moving up still stay in the airline bidnezz
Click to expand...
So are the finance guys in counting money...whether it's for a dog food company or an airline. They are still counting money. Pilots are still just pilots...the basics of the profession are the same at the regional or the national.

Throughout history, it's been the lowest level workers that are more allegent to the company than the mid-level managers. This is what seems to be the issue with Boeing. Maybe not the mid-level guys per se, but "management" in general.
 
Peartree said:
Very similar situation at Norfolk Southern. They had a huge derailment (that they're still paying to clean up) that was largely, if not directly, caused by a lack of maintenance and staff reductions. As a result of the derailment, they've lost a Billion dollars and to fix their balance sheets they are... reducing staff. Brilliant.
Click to expand...
JP Morgan is a bank. Banks are notoriously cheap. And internally, there was a theory that they could achieve 100% profitability if there was zero staff. So, they keep trying to find ways to cut staff. Outsourcing was a great idea that hurt them internally. They moved the programming for their (large) batch-operated mainframes to the Phillipines.

Well, at first, that seemed OK because they got software at a fraction of the price. But it took twice as long because the programmers were in a timezone that was opposite the business hours of the managers. Then there were other problems where they ran a test program on production data (wrong LPAR), and lost a billion dollars, and the data had to be restored from a backup in order to get the books balanced again.

And if this were an isolated incident, that would be one thing. But it's a systemic problem, because the guys in corner offices in NYC get bonuses based on saving the firm money. So, they keep looking for more ways to cut corners. That is literally the only thing on their minds because it's what drives their paycheck.

There's another bank, Valley National I know about... They thought they could save money by getting rid of their entire I.T. Department, and replacing with contractors. Except that the new guys coming in knew zero about the way that their old system was set-up, so literally, months of time was wasted trying to get the new guys up to speed. Banks these days literally run on information technology, so chopping the entire I.T. dept seems like a move that will eventually bite them in the ass.

Point is: It's not just Boeing. Boeing makes the news because when they cut corners, a lot of people can suddenly die. But this is happening all over the place, and when tragedy strikes, hopefully, you're not killing 200 people at once, but perhaps you're causing the stock price of your firm to drop a few points (which to some, might as well be killing people). Remember the 2008 economic crash? That's because some people were playing loose and fast, over-leveraging, and trying to make a lot of money very quickly. Because bonuses.
 
techrat said:
JP Morgan is a bank. Banks are notoriously cheap. And internally, there was a theory that they could achieve 100% profitability if there was zero staff. So, they keep trying to find ways to cut staff. Outsourcing was a great idea that hurt them internally. They moved the programming for their (large) batch-operated mainframes to the Phillipines.

Well, at first, that seemed OK because they got software at a fraction of the price. But it took twice as long because the programmers were in a timezone that was opposite the business hours of the managers. Then there were other problems where they ran a test program on production data (wrong LPAR), and lost a billion dollars, and the data had to be restored from a backup in order to get the books balanced again.

And if this were an isolated incident, that would be one thing. But it's a systemic problem, because the guys in corner offices in NYC get bonuses based on saving the firm money. So, they keep looking for more ways to cut corners. That is literally the only thing on their minds because it's what drives their paycheck.

There's another bank, Valley National I know about... They thought they could save money by getting rid of their entire I.T. Department, and replacing with contractors. Except that the new guys coming in knew zero about the way that their old system was set-up, so literally, months of time was wasted trying to get the new guys up to speed. Banks these days literally run on information technology, so chopping the entire I.T. dept seems like a move that will eventually bite them in the ass.

Point is: It's not just Boeing. Boeing makes the news because when they cut corners, a lot of people can suddenly die. But this is happening all over the place, and when tragedy strikes, hopefully, you're not killing 200 people at once, but perhaps you're causing the stock price of your firm to drop a few points (which to some, might as well be killing people). Remember the 2008 economic crash? That's because some people were playing loose and fast, over-leveraging, and trying to make a lot of money very quickly. Because bonuses.
Click to expand...
It seems that corporate and accounting types are not routinely forced to look Murphy in the eye, and/or they never really suffer the consequences of ignoring him.
 
smstachwick said:
It seems that corporate and accounting types are not routinely forced to look Murphy in the eye, and/or they never really suffer the consequences of ignoring him.
Click to expand...
Nobody blames accounting when accelerated production and reduced manpower lead to quality problems.
 
Tyeeking said:
That’s because accounting makes recommendations not decisions. Major decisions are made by COO’s, CEO’s and ultimately Director’s, not accounting departments.
Click to expand...
Thinking it over, it's probably not accounting that makes the recommendations that cause problems. It's likely Strategic Change Management or some such that would say that the company can make more money if they bump up production, reduce overall employee headcount, and go to mandatory overtime so that the cost of overtime is just a hair less than the cost of benefits for the extra employees that would allow everyone to work 40 hours/week.

Still, I think my point stands that it would be very rare for fingers to point back at Strategic Change Management (or even the CEO/COO/directors) after the programs they recommended lead to employees unable to get the work done while following standard procedures, leading to shortcuts and quality problems. The Finger of Blame almost always points to the factory floor for not making it happen, regardless of whether it was possible.

In this case, I saw some chatter (take with an appropriate grain of salt) that one of the issues on this particular plug was that there was pressure to get the plane delivered, and following all of the normal procedures would have taken too much time. Shades of the folks discussing Challenger pre-launch being asked to take off their engineer hats and put on their management hats.
 
boatgeek said:
In this case, I saw some chatter (take with an appropriate grain of salt) that one of the issues on this particular plug was that there was pressure to get the plane delivered, and following all of the normal procedures would have taken too much time. Shades of the folks discussing Challenger pre-launch being asked to take off their engineer hats and put on their management hats.
Click to expand...
That salt grain is minuscule for me. My very first job I discovered that it was only possible to do the job by the book with the lightest of workloads. I don’t know if it was just me, never asked, but I was doing a lot of cheating to make it look like it happened.

Thankfully I was only cleaning up dog runs at a local pet boarding place, and I always made sure to at least give them a good soapy rinse and hosedown, even if I couldn’t fully bleach and scrub them. You can’t cheat like that when assembling commercial airplanes, though.
 
brockrwood said:
This is what happens when a company is penny wise and pound foolish with cuts to quality control operations.
Click to expand...
Is it though?

I realize many have been quick to jump on and blame this on Boeing management, directors, shareholders, MBAs, marketing, product, finance guys, etc..
Everything and everyone, other than the actual people who neglected to bolt the freaking door back up during assembly!
The door plug gets removed, inspected, and reinstalled at the Boeing factory. Evidently, partial assembly is a-OK with some of the Boeing employees.

Personal responsibility?
Pride in one's work?
Attention to detail when assembling critical airframe components?

Neah. If something goes sideways, lets just make it "management/accounting/finance/inspectors fault".

Why not put the responsibility where in belongs: some lazy-ass untouchable union employee who did not bother to install bolts on the freaking door.
You wanna bet anyone of them will get identified by name, and publicly fired as an example for others?

"Alaska Airlines Plane Appears to Have Left Boeing Factory Without Critical Bolts"
https://www.wsj.com/business/airlin...ed-bolts-when-it-left-boeing-factory-f0246654
 
afadeev said:
Is it though?

I realize many have been quick to jump on and blame this on Boeing management, directors, shareholders, MBAs, marketing, product, finance guys, etc..
Everything and everyone, other than the actual people who neglected to bolt the freaking door back up during assembly!
The door plug gets removed, inspected, and reinstalled at the Boeing factory. Evidently, partial assembly is a-OK with some of the Boeing employees.

Personal responsibility?
Pride in one's work?
Attention to detail when assembling critical airframe components?

Neah. If something goes sideways, lets just make it "management/accounting/finance/inspectors fault".

Why not put the responsibility where in belongs: some lazy-ass untouchable union employee who did not bother to install bolts on the freaking door.
You wanna bet anyone of them will get identified by name, and publicly fired as an example for others?

"Alaska Airlines Plane Appears to Have Left Boeing Factory Without Critical Bolts"
https://www.wsj.com/business/airlin...ed-bolts-when-it-left-boeing-factory-f0246654
Click to expand...
I’m not convinced that that’s what happened. Company culture, effectiveness of approved procedure, supply chain management, and manpower allocation matter, and Boeing has had high-profile issues with all four in recent years. If they’re bad enough, work ethic and morale won’t matter.
 
afadeev said:
Is it though?

I realize many have been quick to jump on and blame this on Boeing management, directors, shareholders, MBAs, marketing, product, finance guys, etc..
Everything and everyone, other than the actual people who neglected to bolt the freaking door back up during assembly!
The door plug gets removed, inspected, and reinstalled at the Boeing factory. Evidently, partial assembly is a-OK with some of the Boeing employees.

Personal responsibility?
Pride in one's work?
Attention to detail when assembling critical airframe components?

Neah. If something goes sideways, lets just make it "management/accounting/finance/inspectors fault".

Why not put the responsibility where in belongs: some lazy-ass untouchable union employee who did not bother to install bolts on the freaking door.
You wanna bet anyone of them will get identified by name, and publicly fired as an example for others?

"Alaska Airlines Plane Appears to Have Left Boeing Factory Without Critical Bolts"
https://www.wsj.com/business/airlin...ed-bolts-when-it-left-boeing-factory-f0246654
Click to expand...
I fully understand the pride in ones work argument. Here is the result of sloppy construction and under-engineering the closet shelf in our second bedroom. Now I have to figure out how to reinforce and repair someone else’s poor workmanship without re-doing the whole closet.

IMG_9995.jpeg
 
afadeev said:
Is it though?

I realize many have been quick to jump on and blame this on Boeing management, directors, shareholders, MBAs, marketing, product, finance guys, etc..
Everything and everyone, other than the actual people who neglected to bolt the freaking door back up during assembly!
The door plug gets removed, inspected, and reinstalled at the Boeing factory. Evidently, partial assembly is a-OK with some of the Boeing employees.

Personal responsibility?
Pride in one's work?
Attention to detail when assembling critical airframe components?

Neah. If something goes sideways, lets just make it "management/accounting/finance/inspectors fault".

Why not put the responsibility where in belongs: some lazy-ass untouchable union employee who did not bother to install bolts on the freaking door.
You wanna bet anyone of them will get identified by name, and publicly fired as an example for others?

"Alaska Airlines Plane Appears to Have Left Boeing Factory Without Critical Bolts"
https://www.wsj.com/business/airlin...ed-bolts-when-it-left-boeing-factory-f0246654
Click to expand...
Aaaand that exactly what I was talking about. Let's go back to this article in the Seattle Times. Some relevant quotes:

“People, when they’re pressured and rushed, they think, well, I’ll catch up on the paperwork later,” Pierson said. “Then it goes from shift to shift and you don’t know if the next shift got it or not.”
Click to expand...
The Boeing inspector recorded in CMES that the repair was not done properly, that the Spirit team “just painted over the defects.” As a result, the repair job was reopened.

Looking at it anew, the Spirit mechanics then discovered that, in addition to the problematic rivets, the pressure seal sandwiched between the plug and the airframe was damaged and needed replaced.

“The big deal with this seal,” the whistleblower wrote, was that the replacement part was not on hand in Renton and needed to be ordered, which could threaten to delay the jet’s delivery schedule.
Click to expand...
The whistleblower cited an entry in the SAT system showing the Boeing and Spirit teams discussed whether the door plug would have to be removed entirely, or just opened.

Critically, says the whistleblower, removal of the door plug has to be recorded in CMES and after it is reinstalled requires a formal signoff from a quality inspector that it’s been done properly and that the airplane complies with regulatory requirements.

But regardless of whether the plug is just opened out on the bottom hinge or fully removed, to do so the four bolts have to be taken out so the plug can be moved upward a few inches, above the stop pads.

“A removal should be written in either case” and a quality inspector required to verify install, the whistleblower wrote.

Instead, someone decided that the door only needed to be opened and a formal Removal entry in CMES was not required — and hence no inspection.
The whistleblower labels this “a major process failure.” In short, the crucial bolts were removed and no one inspected the plug afterward to ensure they were reinserted.
Click to expand...
The critical procedural error, the lack of proper recording of the work done and what still needed to be done for completion, seems to reflect what former MAX assembly manager Pierson calls the “manufacturing chaos” he witnessed first hand in 2018 when mechanics were pushed to accelerate work to meet schedule.

“If a mechanic on day shift removes the part and doesn’t fill it out properly and doesn’t document it properly, and then another comes in on second shift that doesn’t know it,” Pierson said “The first person not connecting with the second person, this is how these things happen.”
Click to expand...
It's pretty clear this is beyond just the floor worker not doing their job. It's a systemic issue, both in the setup of the quality management systems and in the rush to get things done to deliver the jets.
 
brockrwood said:
I fully understand the pride in ones work argument. Here is the result of sloppy construction and under-engineering the closet shelf in our second bedroom. Now I have to figure out how to reinforce and repair someone else’s poor workmanship without re-doing the whole closet.
Click to expand...
I think that one of the problems these days is that common sense & know how is becoming extinct. :(
 
Greg Furtman said:
I think that one of the problems these days is that common sense & know how is becoming extinct. :(
Click to expand...
Since I hate to admit that I do work for Boeing, and am also QA.....We have a term that is often repeated at our site.....
"We don't make sense, we make airplanes!" Also Common sense is NOT allowed.
Sad, but true!
Edit: Know how.....I look at the substandard folks that are now being hired, and wonder how they manage to breathe with out instructions.
With the tiered wage system and higher minimum wages to flip a burger, BA is scraping the bottom of the barrel to get ANYONE to apply much less hire.
If it is that way at my site, I shudder to think what the main plants are like.
 
Today's CNN has an article on the Big BA......I have to say that it is 100% right on.
Even today the concern is more on "hours" (profit) vs safety.
Friday is our all day quality stand down. I have a few concerns I will once again voice. They have not been heard yet, so not sure why I feel it would be different now.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/30/business/boeing-history-of-problems/index.html
 
Buster said:
Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing can be misread
Click to expand...
How much drilling is by hand these days (requiring GD&T interpretation)? I would have guessed it is largely done in a CNC-like manner since Spirit produces so many of these airframes for Boeing. I'm sure that @BEC could weigh in on this question.
 

Similar threads

brockrwood
CIWS is not a “Machine Gun”. Come on CNN. Don’t Be Sloppy with Facts.
2 3
Replies
68
Views
2K
cbrarick
cbrarick
neil_w
Estes Ultimate Sanding Bar mini-review
Replies
24
Views
885
neil_w
neil_w
pathtouch
AMW L3 Cert Special
Replies
0
Views
737
pathtouch
pathtouch
J
Blue Raven Help
Replies
11
Views
1K
Adrian A
Adrian A
C
Hi newbie here. From Colorado.
Replies
15
Views
585
KenECoyote
KenECoyote

Latest posts

Back
Top