Coal as an Energy Source

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Art Upton said:
If you put it back into the ground it turns into oil that you can pull out later and burn.
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I don’t think you can put CO2 in the ground and pull it out later as oil. Organic matter might eventually turn to coal or oil deep under ground, but it takes millions of years of heat and pressure. If you want to turn organic matter to oil, there are industrial ways to do it that don’t take millions of years.
 
ThirstyBarbarian said:
I don’t think you can put CO2 in the ground and pull it out later as oil. Organic matter might eventually turn to coal or oil deep under ground, but it takes millions of years of heat and pressure. If you want to turn organic matter to oil, there are industrial ways to do it that don’t take millions of years.
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+1
 
NTP2 said:
And same for the biosphere.
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True.

The root cause of the western fires that have been getting worse is the stressed biosphere and local ecosystems that are dying out. As temperature and rainfall patterns change, entire ecosystems are basically living in the wrong place to thrive.

So for example, you might have a conifer forest that has existed in one place for thousands and thousands of years that needs a certain amount of cool weather, rain, and snow. But now the area where that forest lives gets hotter temperatures, less rain, less snow than it used to. Maybe a different ecosystem, like an oak forest, or chaparral, or grassland might thrive in that area, but it’s occupied by a conifer forest that dates from a time when the climate was different.

Past a certain point of change, the conifer forest become stressed to the point where trees get sick, they get vulnerable to pests, they die. Then a wildfire sweeps through and cleans out that dead or dying ecosystem. Most likely a lot of these places that have been burned over in recent years will be replaced by something different, but it might take generations before a stable, healthy, rich, and complex ecosystem forms again. No doubt, species will go extinct during the process. Plus it’s going to be hell on us humans watching the familiar places burn and choking on the smoke for years as it plays out.
 
ThirstyBarbarian said:
True.

The root cause of the western fires that have been getting worse is the stressed biosphere and local ecosystems that are dying out. As temperature and rainfall patterns change, entire ecosystems are basically living in the wrong place to thrive.

So for example, you might have a conifer forest that has existed in one place for thousands and thousands of years that needs a certain amount of cool weather, rain, and snow. But now the area where that forest lives gets hotter temperatures, less rain, less snow than it used to. Maybe a different ecosystem, like an oak forest, or chaparral, or grassland might thrive in that area, but it’s occupied by a conifer forest that dates from a time when the climate was different.

Past a certain point of change, the conifer forest become stressed to the point where trees get sick, they get vulnerable to pests, they die. Then a wildfire sweeps through and cleans out that dead or dying ecosystem. Most likely a lot of these places that have been burned over in recent years will be replaced by something different, but it might take generations before a stable, healthy, rich, and complex ecosystem forms again. No doubt, species will go extinct during the process. Plus it’s going to be hell on us humans watching the familiar places burn and choking on the smoke for years as it plays out.
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Not to mention the farmers they are in for a very tough time.
 
ThirstyBarbarian said:
The root cause of the western fires that have been getting worse is the stressed biosphere and local ecosystems that are dying out.
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That's one factor but maybe not the root cause. For over 100 years the US Forest Service has focused on fire suppression. Now it's all overgrown with kindling. Natives had been grooming the forests with fire for thousands of years.
 
Increase in wildfires = natural variation
If you squint you could see evidence of a trend since 1990, but it will take a few more years (decade) to determine if this is statistically significant. Statistically significant means the effect is confidently above variation above natural variation.

1702222312829.png
 
cls said:
That's one factor but maybe not the root cause. For over 100 years the US Forest Service has focused on fire suppression. Now it's all overgrown with kindling. Natives had been grooming the forests with fire for thousands of years.
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There’s more than one factor, and forest management is definitely one of them.
 
jderimig said:
Increase in wildfires = natural variation
If you squint you could see evidence of a trend since 1990, but it will take a few more years (decade) to determine if this is statistically significant. Statistically significant means the effect is confidently above variation above natural variation.

View attachment 619217
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Similar graph to the Hurricane data. The data doesn’t support the narrative of “doom and gloom”. Too many people equate increased media coverage ( and parroting of that same coverage) of something with increased frequency of that same something.
 
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Tyeeking said:
Similar graph to the Hurricane data. The data doesn’t support the narrative. Too many people equate increased media coverage ( and parroting of that same coverage) of something with increased frequency of that same something.
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And like hurricanes, the fires are not worse than in the past, the major difference is much more people are choosing to live closer to them.
 
jderimig said:
Increase in wildfires = natural variation
If you squint you could see evidence of a trend since 1990, but it will take a few more years (decade) to determine if this is statistically significant. Statistically significant means the effect is confidently above variation above natural variation.

View attachment 619217
Click to expand...

What I can tell you is that no one I know remembers a time when there has been as much smoke as there often is most years now. It can make it unpleasant or downright dangerous to be outside breathing it. 2023 has been a rare exception, with nice clean air most of the summer and fall, but most years you can count on days, weeks, or longer of dangerously poor air quality from wildfire, and I don’t know anyone who remembers it being like this in the past.
 
ThirstyBarbarian said:
What I can tell you is that no one I know remembers a time when there has been as much smoke as there often is most years now. It can make it unpleasant or downright dangerous to be outside breathing it. 2023 has been a rare exception, with nice clean air most of the summer and fall, but most years you can count on days, weeks, or longer of dangerously poor air quality from wildfire, and I don’t know anyone who remembers it being like this in the past.
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Yes I don't ever remember the midwest smoke episode we had this year. It did make for 100 year gorgeous sunsets though. I am grateful to have experienced that and my lung feels great. But even the IPCC doesn't attribute fires and droughts to climate change, yet. Can we say the science isn't settled on that one?
 
cls said:
That's one factor but maybe not the root cause. For over 100 years the US Forest Service has focused on fire suppression. Now it's all overgrown with kindling. Natives had been grooming the forests with fire for thousands of years.
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While forest management is definitely an issue, another major factor in the PNW fires is that the winters aren't cold enough to kill bark beetles, which means that there's a lot more standing dead timber waiting to catch fire. Which is more important is a little hard to tell.

On a more macro scale, the increased summer heat as associated droughts have been killing Western red cedars here. Those trees have lived in the PNW for tens of thousands of years.
 
ThirstyBarbarian said:
What I can tell you is that no one I know remembers a time when there has been as much smoke as there often is most years now. It can make it unpleasant or downright dangerous to be outside breathing it. 2023 has been a rare exception, with nice clean air most of the summer and fall, but most years you can count on days, weeks, or longer of dangerously poor air quality from wildfire, and I don’t know anyone who remembers it being like this in the past.
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I remember Los Angeles in the late 1950's, when you could see the air you breathed. Every breath I took burned my lungs.
 
ThirstyBarbarian said:
You said there are satellite images that show earth is “greening“ due to higher CO2. Instead of inviting me to do the research to prove myself wrong, which I am not going to waste my time doing, how about YOU provide the images and something to back up your claim that any changes in those images are due to increased CO2, because I don’t believe it. I think you are wrong.

As a farmer, have you seen any increases in your yields over the past decade or so that you think are due to more CO2? Have you been affected by drought, heat, or other extreme weather? If you are irrigated from reservoirs or groundwater aquifers, how are those holding up? Has your crop insurance gone up or down?

I’m in California, and from the crops you described, it sounds like maybe you are too, like maybe the Salinas Valley. Most of the state’s agriculture is under stress from heat, drought, low reservoirs, and depleted aquifers. The Salinas Valley is probably less affected than the Central Valley or Southern California, but it has it’s own water problems too.
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Like you said," I'm not going to waste my time". Go a head and continue to be ignorant and uninformed, not my worry. Also, I don't care what you think, I really don't.
Yes, we are in California. We have no worries about water or the atmosphere. No stress from the environment, only stress from the government who doesn't want food crops grown in America...food grows where water flows. Camarillo and Ventura. Our well levels have not dropped at all. The beach house we own here has not seen a sea level rise either. Working with environmental groups(Wilderness Society) for decades taught me to be very skeptical, and to pay attention to our slice of heaven right here. What we live with seems to be very different than what others believe. Our yield increases have been due to better farming practices. Co2 levels are not dangerous until the reach over 10,000 ppm. Were at 350 to 400ppm right now. That's according to the government. Due diligence is on you!
 
speed said:
Like you said," I'm not going to waste my time". Go a head and continue to be ignorant and uninformed, not my worry. Also, I don't care what you think, I really don't.
Yes, we are in California. We have no worries about water or the atmosphere. No stress from the environment, only stress from the government who doesn't want food crops grown in America...food grows where water flows. Camarillo and Ventura. Our well levels have not dropped at all. The beach house we own here has not seen a sea level rise either. Working with environmental groups(Wilderness Society) for decades taught me to be very skeptical, and to pay attention to our slice of heaven right here. What we live with seems to be very different than what others believe. Our yield increases have been due to better farming practices. Co2 levels are not dangerous until the reach over 10,000 ppm. Were at 350 to 400ppm right now. That's according to the government. Due diligence is on you!
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This is another bizarre response. You've made wild claims, and then changed the subject and deflected when asked for the slightest evidence.

That's not how discussion works.
 
On Earth greening, NASA does indeed measure vegetation and they create something called a vegetation index. Whatever that is. Below is a plot of whatever that is for the last 20 years or so. I am guessing the higher the index the more vegetation there is on the planet.

1702239422683.png
 
CalebJ said:
This is another bizarre response. You've made wild claims, and then changed the subject and deflected when asked for the slightest evidence.

That's not how discussion works.
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He didn’t provide evidence because he has no evidence. It’s made up. But he also said he doesn’t care if people believe him. That’s not the kind of person you can have a conversation with.
 
jderimig said:
On Earth greening, NASA does indeed measure vegetation and they create something called a vegetation index. Whatever that is. Below is a plot of whatever that is for the last 20 years or so. I am guessing the higher the index the more vegetation there is on the planet.
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Exactly.
More weedwacking mowing and pruning.
Bad for my health.
 
An easier way to help the environment is reversing Population growth, but no one is willing to do that so I gave up caring after 30 years of being an Environmentalist.
 

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