Coal as an Energy Source

[jderimig]

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

View attachment 618754

That chart this meme is based on is from the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in San Diego. My dad worked at Scripps for almost 40 years, starting when the CO2 concentration was under 320 ppm, according to the graph, and ending when it was around 360. So about 40 ppm in 40 years. He’s been in retirement for a bit over 20 years, and CO2 has gone up another 60 ppm. So things are definitely accelerating.

That’s a lot of change in one person’s lifetime. We were talking about the weather last summer and how bizarre it has gotten, with heat waves, fire, and smoke like we never saw in our lives, and I said, “It’s as if all those things they’ve been warning us about for 30 years are actually starting to happen.”

 

[NTP2]

That chart this meme is based on is from the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in San Diego. My dad worked at Scripps for almost 40 years, starting when the CO2 concentration was under 320 ppm, according to the graph, and ending when it was around 360. So about 40 ppm in 40 years. He’s been in retirement for a bit over 20 years, and CO2 has gone up another 60 ppm. So things are definitely accelerating.

That’s a lot of change in one person’s lifetime. We were talking about the weather last summer and how bizarre it has gotten, with heat waves, fire, and smoke like we never saw in our lives, and I said, “It’s as if all those things they’ve been warning us about for 30 years are actually starting to happen.”

I know and i have not been around that long and even I have noticed a change in the weather it kind of scary.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

I know and i have not been around that long and even I have noticed a change in the weather it kind of scary.

I’m probably 40+ years older than you, but most of the noticeable changes in weather I have seen are in the last 20-25 years. That’s definitely within a young person’s life.

From the perspective of a person who is older than you, I can say that most of my life, the weather was within a range of “normal”. Weather changes from year to year, and you might get a really odd year now and then, but it all centered around a certain normal climate.

For 30+ years, that’s what it was like, but since around the year 2000, it’s gotten noticeable weird and steadily weirder and weirder. Where I live, we get more extreme heat days in the summer — temperatures like 105, 110, 115. That was extremely rare in the past, but now you can count on it. We also get longer heat waves where the temperature is very hot for a week or even a few weeks at a time.

And the worst of it is the fires. California has always had fires, but not like we have now. I remember only 2 fires from the early half of my life that sent smoke and ash into the area. Now the smoke from fires up and down the state, even from Oregon, Washington, and Idaho, can blow into the region and linger here for weeks or months. We get a thick haze that hangs in the air, and you can smell it and feel it in your lungs. To me, the smoke is the most emotionally depressing change. That and the fact that some of my favorite camping and backpacking areas have been completely destroyed by fire.

So I agree, it is scary.

 

[NTP2]

I’m probably 40+ years older than you, but most of the noticeable changes in weather I have seen are in the last 20-25 years. That’s definitely within a young person’s life.

From the perspective of a person who is older than you, I can say that most of my life, the weather was within a range of “normal”. Weather changes from year to year, and you might get a really odd year now and then, but it all centered around a certain normal climate.

For 30+ years, that’s what it was like, but since around the year 2000, it’s gotten noticeable weird and steadily weirder and weirder. Where I live, we get more extreme heat days in the summer — temperatures like 105, 110, 115. That was extremely rare in the past, but now you can count on it. We also get longer heat waves where the temperature is very hot for a week or even a few weeks at a time.

And the worst of it is the fires. California has always had fires, but not like we have now. I remember only 2 fires from the early half of my life that sent smoke and ash into the area. Now the smoke from fires up and down the state, even from Oregon, Washington, and Idaho, can blow into the region and linger here for weeks or months. We get a thick haze that hangs in the air, and you can smell it and feel it in your lungs. To me, the smoke is the most emotionally depressing change. That and the fact that some of my favorite camping and backpacking areas have been completely destroyed by fire.

So I agree, it is scary.

The thing I noticed is the absence of snow for reference I live in VA so mid winter we would get a foot or two of snow that was 2010 or so but last year we had no snow at all and only 1 the year before that.

 

[CalebJ]

The thing I noticed is the absence of snow for reference I live in VA so mid winter we would get a foot or two of snow that was 2010 or so but last year we had no snow at all and only 1 the year before that.

Let's be clear though - 2010 was a massive outlier as far as snow storms. Back to back large ones in our part of the country. It wasn't referred to as 'snowmageddon' for no reason.

 

[NTP2]

Let's be clear though - 2010 was a massive outlier as far as snow storms. Back to back large ones in our part of the country. It wasn't referred to as 'snowmageddon' for no reason.

That is probably why I remember it as I was 3… but I still remember a lot more snow than we are getting now.

 

[CalebJ]

So do I. Just pointing out that an outlier year isn't the best way to build your case.

 

[aerostadt]

Actually, last winter was a big snow year in the mountains for both Utah and California. Utah had the largest mountain snow pack in 40 years. The spring runoff made Lake Powell go up 60 feet. The Great Salt Lake went up 5 feet.

 

[Art Upton]

Dec. 23-25 was bad here in TOL

 

[Spacedog49Krell]

The CO2 induced climate change crisis reminds me of the CFC induced ozone hole crisis a few decades back. We were told that if we didn't give up our CFC's we would be burned to a crisp by the UV-rays penetrating the atmosphere. Well, it has been 40+ years and we are still not burned to a crisp. Were we successful in repairing the ozone hole? No!!! Scientists are now predicting that the Antartica hole won't be closed until 2080. I venture to say that most of us reading this post will not be available to witness this monumental event. If your media news has not been keeping you updated on the ongoing ozone hole crisis, here is a brief 40 year summery of data available to all. During the last 10 years the hole has expanded, again.

We have been working on the ozone crisis for 50 years and a solution for a single digit pptV problem is still 50 years away. Who believes that in 12 years we can resolve a 425+ ppmV crisis or we will all be cooked by a 1.5°C temperature change. Sound familiar? It's not that climate change is not happening, because our climate has been changing since time began. We either adapt to the changes or die. Humanity has shown a remarkable ability to adapt.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

The CO2 induced climate change crisis reminds me of the CFC induced ozone hole crisis a few decades back. We were told that if we didn't give up our CFC's we would be burned to a crisp by the UV-rays penetrating the atmosphere. Well, it has been 40+ years and we are still not burned to a crisp. Were we successful in repairing the ozone hole? No!!! Scientists are now predicting that the Antartica hole won't be closed until 2080. I venture to say that most of us reading this post will not be available to witness this monumental event. If your media news has not been keeping you updated on the ongoing ozone hole crisis, here is a brief 40 year summery of data available to all. During the last 10 years the hole has expanded, again.

We have been working on the ozone crisis for 50 years and a solution for a single digit pptV problem is still 50 years away. Who believes that in 12 years we can resolve a 425+ ppmV crisis or we will all be cooked by a 1.5°C temperature change. Sound familiar? It's not that climate change is not happening, because our climate has been changing since time began. We either adapt to the changes or die. Humanity has shown a remarkable ability to adapt.

The agreement to control and eliminate CFCs and other ozone-depleting chemicals is one of the most successful international environmental agreements ever. It successfully phased out the production and emission of most ozone-depleting chemical by the mid 90s, which was really fast. The ozone layer (not just the “hole”) has been recovering since then. It won’t fully recover until the 2060s to 2070s, but that was the whole point of the urgency of the problem — these chemicals last a long time.

So there are some similarities between the international agreements to phase out CFC emissions and agreements to phase out CO2 emissions, but the main difference is that reducing CFCs has been successful, and the desired environmental outcome has been successful, while reducing CO2 has not been successful, and the desired environmental outcome is getting worse. Anyway, despite whatever comparisons you can make, the ozone hole is a bit off-topic in the coal thread.

 

[NTP2]

. We either adapt to the changes or die. Humanity has shown a remarkable ability to adapt.

What about the biosphere that we Need to eat? They may not have our talent…

 

[speed]

What about the biosphere that we Need to eat? They may not have our talent…

It hasn't gone anywhere. More Co2, more plants, more food. Look at satellite pictures of our world from a decade or so ago and compare the greening to today. Our planet is much greener now, especially in the middle east.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

It hasn't gone anywhere. More Co2, more plants, more food. Look at satellite pictures of our world from a decade or so ago and compare the greening to today. Our planet is much greener now, especially in the middle east.

I don’t believe the world is more green today than it was a decade or two ago or that CO2 has contributed any net benefit to farming. Farmers today are having more problems due to drought, flooding, and other extreme weather.

 

[NTP2]

I don’t believe the world is more green today than it was a decade or two ago or that CO2 has contributed any net benefit to farming. Farmers today are having more problems due to drought, flooding, and other extreme weather.

And same for the biosphere.

 

[NTP2]

It hasn't gone anywhere. More Co2, more plants, more food. Look at satellite pictures of our world from a decade or so ago and compare the greening to today. Our planet is much greener now, especially in the middle east.

The Middle East is NOT supposed to be green!

 

[jderimig]

I don’t believe the world is more green today than it was a decade or two ago or that CO2 has contributed any net benefit to farming. Farmers today are having more problems due to drought, flooding, and other extreme weather.

The IPCC has concluded that a signal of climate change has not yet emerged beyond natural variability for the following phenomena:

• River floods
• Heavy precipitation and pluvial floods
• Landslides
• Drought (all types)
• Severe wind storms
• Tropical cyclones
• Sand and dust storms
• Heavy snowfall and ice storms
• Hail
• Snow avalanche
• Coastal flooding
• Marine heat waves
  
  https://rogerpielkejr.substack.com/p/what-the-ipcc-actually-says-about

 

[jderimig]

It hasn't gone anywhere. More Co2, more plants, more food. Look at satellite pictures of our world from a decade or so ago and compare the greening to today. Our planet is much greener now, especially in the middle east.

Attributing increased agricultural output due to increased atmospheric CO2 levels is confounded by advancements in agricultural technology.
But increased growth rates of forests (natural and harvested are not).

https://e360.yale.edu/digest/carbon-dioxide-climate-change-bigger-trees

 

[dr wogz]

chopping down the rainforests so we can have our quarter pounders.. progress!

 

[speed]

chopping down the rainforests so we can have our quarter pounders.. progress!

Don't eat them so you can feel better.

 

[speed]

I don’t believe the world is more green today than it was a decade or two ago or that CO2 has contributed any net benefit to farming. Farmers today are having more problems due to drought, flooding, and other extreme weather.

Ignorance is bliss. You can prove yourself wrong just by comparing a few images. Are you a farmer? My family grows artichokes and asparagus, strawberries too.

 

[NTP2]

Ignorance is bliss. You can prove yourself wrong just by comparing a few images.
Or not...

Have you considered that a lot of the green is grass. And almost all is cultivated.

 

[speed]

Have you considered that a lot of the green is grass. And almost all is cultivated.

Yup and its still green, uses Co2. Sand, not so much.

 

[NTP2]

Yup and its still green, uses Co2. Sand, not so much.

The thing about cultivation is that you plan to harvest it and then all the Co2 comes back. You would need to put it back in the ground to actually get rid of Co2.

 

[Art Upton]

The Middle East is NOT supposed to be green!

It was in the olden days, hanging gardens of Babylon & Egypt.

 

[Art Upton]

Ignorance is bliss. You can prove yourself wrong just by comparing a few images. Are you a farmer? My family grows artichokes and asparagus, strawberries too.

I heard green house operators used CO2 machines to increase output.

 

[Art Upton]

The thing about cultivation is that you plan to harvest it and then all the Co2 comes back. You would need to put it back in the ground to actually get rid of Co2.

If you put it back into the ground it turns into oil that you can pull out later and burn.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Ignorance is bliss. You can prove yourself wrong just by comparing a few images. Are you a farmer? My family grows artichokes and asparagus, strawberries too.

You said there are satellite images that show earth is “greening“ due to higher CO2. Instead of inviting me to do the research to prove myself wrong, which I am not going to waste my time doing, how about YOU provide the images and something to back up your claim that any changes in those images are due to increased CO2, because I don’t believe it. I think you are wrong.

As a farmer, have you seen any increases in your yields over the past decade or so that you think are due to more CO2? Have you been affected by drought, heat, or other extreme weather? If you are irrigated from reservoirs or groundwater aquifers, how are those holding up? Has your crop insurance gone up or down?

I’m in California, and from the crops you described, it sounds like maybe you are too, like maybe the Salinas Valley. Most of the state’s agriculture is under stress from heat, drought, low reservoirs, and depleted aquifers. The Salinas Valley is probably less affected than the Central Valley or Southern California, but it has it’s own water problems too.

 

[Spacedog49Krell]

If you put it back into the ground it turns into oil that you can pull out later and burn.

Putting CO2 into the ground with an alkaline mineral turns it into an inorganic carbonate. Oil comes from organic materials.