Cattle-killing rockets?

[Frederocket]

My point is that even if it's a public event, if it's being held on private property, the owner of that private property has a right to privacy, and can ask for details of incidents and settlements pertaining to events on that private property (even if it's a public event) to be sealed.

Settlement, yes--incident details not so much, as the private property owner, NAR, or insurance company can not control what incident information/details attending individuals give out.

 

[Buckeye]

My point is why do you assume they are withholding information when they stated that the rockets launched and recovered safely, and the section worked through some new ideas to help at that particular site, and to take necessary precautions to prevent landing rockets near cows. What more info do you need? Do we need a full autopsy report on the cows? What information are we concerned is being kept from us? Settlement amounts? Exact distance from the rocket to the cow when it landed? I just don't understand what level of detail is being requested here.

The message from President is illogical to most people and painfully written. A rocket safely landing that causes cow deaths and an insurance payout is such a bizarre chain of events that it warrants a plain English explanation. I certainly could not connect those dots as written. What is wrong with expecting the simple truth from the head of the NAR?

The takeaway from the message is do not land your rockets amongst livestock. OK, fine. However, many clubs/fliers already do so, so what is in store for them?

Since the NAR invited rampant speculation, here is mine. The ambiguous message is either due to an NDA (not stated), or the details will lead to an even greater backlash. I agree with @Daddyisabar way back in post #10. The rocket activity probably had only a tangential impact on the cow deaths. However, the farmer bullied the section/NAR into restitution. To keep the peace, and to keep the access to a valuable launch site, the NAR paid up. Personally, I am OK with this, as a cost of doing business. However, hardliners will see this as NAR weakness, a waste of money, and an increase in insurance premiums (dues).

 

[lakeroadster]

However, the farmer bullied the section/NAR into restitution.

That's such "bullshit".

Let's not blame the farmer @Buckeye . He let folks fly on his property.

 

[Daddyisabar]

The message from President is illogical to most people and painfully written. A rocket safely landing that causes cow deaths and an insurance payout is such a bizarre chain of events that it warrants a plain English explanation. I certainly could not connect those dots as written. What is wrong with expecting the simple truth from the head of the NAR?

The takeaway from the message is do not land your rockets amongst livestock. OK, fine. However, many clubs/fliers already do so, so what is in store for them?

Since the NAR invited rampant speculation, here is mine. The ambiguous message is either due to an NDA (not stated), or the truth will lead to an even greater backlash. I agree with @Daddyisabar way back in post #10. The rocket activity probably had only a tangential impact on the cow deaths. However, the farmer bullied the section/NAR into restitution. To keep the peace, and to keep the access to a valuable launch site, the NAR paid up. Personally, I am OK with this, as a cost of doing business. However, hardliners will see this as NAR weakness, a waste of money, and an increase in insurance premiums (dues).

It wasn't bullying, it was good old American advisarial justice on the open range. Cattlemen rule! Silly toy rockets drule.

 

[mh9162013]

Are you willing to pay court costs/attorney fees if someone complains and takes the NAR to court for something related to it?

What are you talking about?

Who's going to take the NAR to court? For what reason? Because the kid/spouse of an NAR member told a friend or online message board what happened?

Practically any confidentiality provision in any settlement agreement is almost guaranteed not to apply to individuals and parties that had no involvement as to what happened.

Could these third-parties potentially be subject to an NDA? Sure, but they would most likely need some sort of consideration (ie, money) for this surrender of legal rights. I doubt the NAR, farm owner and/or insurance company is going to pay the likely handful to several dozen third parties money to stay quiet.

 

[Frederocket]

What are you talking about?

Who's going to take the NAR to court? For what reason? Because the kid/spouse of an NAR member told a friend or online message board what happened?

Practically any confidentiality provision in any settlement agreement is almost guaranteed not to apply to individuals and parties that had no involvement as to what happened.

Could these third-parties potentially be subject to an NDA? Sure, but they would most likely need some sort of consideration (ie, money) for this surrender of legal rights. I doubt the NAR, farm owner and/or insurance company is going to pay the likely handful to several dozen third parties money to stay quiet.

Bingo...

 

[Antares JS]

How did we get two threads with endless lawyering at the same time?

 

[SecondRow]

How did we get two threads with endless lawyering at the same time?

Speak for yourself. I have been enjoying both of them with my snack.

 

[loopy]

Settlement, yes--incident details not so much, as the private property owner can not control what incident information/details attending individuals give out.

So again - what was left out that you'd like to hear? What level of detail is appropriate beyond what happened?

 

[loopy]

The message from President is illogical to most people and painfully written. A rocket safely landing that causes cow deaths and an insurance payout is such a bizarre chain of events that it warrants a plain English explanation. I certainly could not connect those dots as written. What is wrong with expecting the simple truth from the head of the NAR?

The takeaway from the message is do not land your rockets amongst livestock. OK, fine. However, many clubs/fliers already do so, so what is in store for them?

Since the NAR invited rampant speculation, here is mine. The ambiguous message is either due to an NDA (not stated), or the details will lead to an even greater backlash. I agree with @Daddyisabar way back in post #10. The rocket activity probably had only a tangential impact on the cow deaths. However, the farmer bullied the section/NAR into restitution. To keep the peace, and to keep the access to a valuable launch site, the NAR paid up. Personally, I am OK with this, as a cost of doing business. However, hardliners will see this as NAR weakness, a waste of money, and an increase in insurance premiums (dues).

Personally, I thought it was a plain English explanation. The rockets flew and landed according to safety code. Cows freaked out. Farmer wasn't happy. Insurance paid the farmer, and the club is taking steps to mitigate future issues. Not stated, but common sense in light of this, if you are a club flying where there is livestock, make sure you have clear understandings with the land owner on what is and is not acceptable during the launches with regard to the livestock in the area.

 

[rcktnut]

My point is that even if it's a public event, if it's being held on private property, the owner of that private property has a right to privacy, and can ask for details of incidents and settlements pertaining to events on that private property (even if it's a public event) to be sealed.

Nobody is asking where or who or how much just a little bit better explanation than: cattle "ended up expiring" from model rockets that "were not well-received."

 

[loopy]

What are you talking about?

Who's going to take the NAR to court? For what reason? Because the kid/spouse of an NAR member told a friend or online message board what happened?

Practically any confidentiality provision in any settlement agreement is almost guaranteed not to apply to individuals and parties that had no involvement as to what happened.

Could these third-parties potentially be subject to an NDA? Sure, but they would most likely need some sort of consideration (ie, money) for this surrender of legal rights. I doubt the NAR, farm owner and/or insurance company is going to pay the likely handful to several dozen third parties money to stay quiet.

I'm saying if the NAR said something in any sort of official capacity and someone in the original settlement wasn't happy with what they said, that party could file a complaint for violation of disclosure agreements. I said nothing about individuals not named in the complaint...you're right - no one can control that. But our society tends to be rather sue-happy lately, so can you blame an organization for not wanting to say something that could get them hauled into court?

 

[rcktnut]

Personally, I thought it was a plain English explanation. The rockets flew and landed according to safety code. Cows freaked out. Farmer wasn't happy.

That is still only speculation.

 

[loopy]

Nobody is asking where or who or how much just a little bit better explanation than: cattle "ended up expiring" from model rockets that "were not well-received."

My question is...again...what level of detail do you need? They stated the rockets flew and recovered safely (which would seem to indicate they recovered with proper deployment of recovery devices and not ballistically). My guess is they may not know exactly what caused the cows to die. Maybe the spooked when the rockets landed, and they had heart attacks. Maybe they ran off a cliff. Who knows? But in the grand scheme of things, that's not really all that important, honestly. The pertinent information is that it's been handled, and make sure you're being careful.

 

[loopy]

That is still only speculation.

Again - what level of detail do you want? The cows reacted negatively (not speculation, as that's a way of saying the rockets were "not well received").

 

[cerving]

This whole thread has turned into nothing but udder nonsense.

 

[loopy]

This whole thread has turned into nothing but udder nonsense.

I have beef with that comment...

 

[mh9162013]

I'm saying if the NAR said something in any sort of official capacity and someone in the original settlement wasn't happy with what they said, that party could file a complaint for violation of disclosure agreements. I said nothing about individuals not named in the complaint...you're right - no one can control that. But our society tends to be rather sue-happy lately, so can you blame an organization for not wanting to say something that could get them hauled into court?

I hear ya, and that makes sense.

I wonder why an NAR representative can't say they're subject to an NDA; not sure if an NDA can impose that limitation on someone...maybe it can?

 

[loopy]

I hear ya, and that makes sense.

I wonder why an NAR representative can't say they're subject to an NDA; not sure if an NDA can impose that limitation on someone...maybe it can?

Who knows. I just think people tend to err on the side of caution, which makes sense. In this particular case, I think they probably felt they had given all the pertinent information that was necessary to convey there was an incident, it was handled, and how to avoid it in the future. Not sure what else would be needed.

 

[loopy]

How did we get two threads with endless lawyering at the same time?

Kinda like the good ol' days with all the "This will be the end of rocketry as we know it!" threads...lol

 

[rcktnut]

cerving​

​

This whole thread has turned into nothing but udder nonsense.

I'll be milking this one out.

 

[Frederocket]

So again - what was left out that you'd like to hear? What level of detail is appropriate beyond what happened?

The details that contributed to the incident. It's not rocket science.

 

[3stoogesrocketry]

I have spent a lot of time with cows I am not a farmer but I think that broken fence and alfalfa is the most likely. After all I have seen a caf jump a fence.

Too much freash alfalfa will kill cows, its called Bloat. It's sweet, and cows gourge themselves on it. The offgassing processes essentially builds up withing and puts pressure on the lungs/heart and they die.

 

[NTP2]

Too much freash alfalfa will kill cows, its called Bloat. It's sweet, and cows gourge themselves on it. The offgassing processes essentially builds up withing and puts pressure on the lungs/heart and they die.

I know. I read a vet textbook once.

 

[bjphoenix]

Sure, but it doesn't mean they'll be enforceable.

It's only enforceable between the parties that signed the agreement. The agreement has no force against the rest of us.

 

[bjphoenix]

I know. I read a vet textbook once.

I worked on a vet school one time so that makes me an expert. <sarcasm>

I have 2 relatives who are vets, I could probably ask them.

 

[Art Upton]

Chat.GPT:

Feeding excessive amounts of fresh alfalfa to cows can potentially be harmful and even lead to health issues, although it might not necessarily result in immediate death. Alfalfa is a nutritious forage, but it can have some drawbacks when fed in excess or under certain conditions:

1. Bloat: One of the primary concerns when feeding cows excessive fresh alfalfa is the risk of bloat. Bloat is a condition where gas accumulates in the cow's rumen (the first compartment of the stomach) and causes the stomach to distend. This can be life-threatening if not treated promptly.
2. Nutrient imbalances: Alfalfa is rich in protein and calcium, which are essential nutrients for cows. However, too much of these nutrients can disrupt the cow's overall diet balance and may lead to health problems such as urinary calculi (bladder stones) due to excess calcium intake.
3. Obesity: Feeding cows excessive alfalfa can lead to overconsumption of calories, potentially causing obesity and related health issues.

To avoid these problems, it's essential to provide cows with a balanced diet that includes a variety of forages and supplemental feed, if necessary. Consult with a veterinarian or livestock nutritionist to determine the appropriate feeding regimen for your cows based on their specific needs, age, weight, and production goals. It's crucial to monitor your cows' health closely and make adjustments to their diet as needed to prevent issues related to overfeeding or nutrient imbalances.

 

[Frederocket]

This whole thread has turned into nothing but udder nonsense.

I see what you did there..

 

[loopy]

The details that contributed to the incident. It's not rocket science.

Rockets went up, rockets landed safely, cows reacted negatively. Using context clues, we could assume the rockets landed near cows, and they didn't like it. Thus the directive to not land near livestock...Do we need exact distances for where the rockets landed in relation to the cows? Wind speed and directions? lol

 

[Art Upton]

They then broke down the fence when one of them said, "Hey over here; Fresh Alfalfa"