Blue Raven batteries and current limiting

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Adrian A

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I've been working on a new capability for the Blue Raven firmware over the last few days, which is to limit the current that flows into the output in the event of a short circuit in the load.

Load short circuits aren't that uncommon. Anyone who is firing a head-end igniter for an airstart will almost certainly get a low-resistance short circuit once the motor comes up to pressure, because the glowing gas inside a firing motor is very conductive. I have also had short circuits for other reasons, like an ematch head that had both sides touching a conductive hole. The guidance I have provided since the start of the Raven altimeter has been to only use 9V alkaline batteries or lipo batteries that are small enough that their short circuit current capability is lower than what the output MOSFET transistor can handle (about 20 Amps). This has meant an upper bound on a lipo battery of about 180 mAhrs. That's enough for about 10 hours on the pad for a full discharge, or about 5 hours before the battery gets down to a questionable voltage. Larger batteries can overhead the output MOSFET and cause a permanent failure, and the most common failure mode in this case is to fail short (i.e. the charge fires as soon as power is applied to the altimeter). This has happened to more than one customer over the years who used a lipo battery that was too large.

I designed the Blue Raven to use hardware timer channels to control the outputs, so that the firmware could duty-cycle the output switch at a fast enough rate to cut back the current in a controlled way if the measured deployment current gets too high. I believe I have this capability working now, and I bought some larger RC batteries to test it out. I started the development with a hard short connected across one output, and got it to work when the short was in place at the start of the firing. Then I realized I also needed to cover the case of a short that takes place partway through the output firing, as would happen during an airstart. Here's a test of that, where I start with a 3.3 Ohm load resistor, and then short it out partway through the firing. This is a 400 mAhr lipo that arrived from Amazon yesterday:

1687718007294.png

When the load shorts out, the current shoots up to 34 Amps. The Blue Raven responds by cutting back the current within 2 msec and then controls the output current to a target of 3 Amps for the rest of the output period by reducing the duty cycle.

To push the system even harder, I used a 2S 1000 mAhr battery fully charged up to 8.4V. The Blue Raven survived a short with that battery unscathed also.

I'm gathering up some other firmware bug fixes along with this new feature into a new build that should be available in the next few days.
 
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Very nice Adrian.

I like the idea of flying one larger battery for multiple devices in the AV-Bay.

I REALLY like that this upgrade can be accomplished via a Firmware Update !

Thanks for the info.

OverThetop --

I imagine I'll eventually find a way to blow things up, even if I have to invent a new, heretofore unimagined method of electronic destruction :)

-- kjh
 
The current-limiting firmware is available in the new build 196 released today for iOS and Android. The release notes already says this, but in case someone misses it, it's important that the app be uninstalled before installing the new build. This is because of a change to the implementation of the database on the phone that holds all the flight information. Hopefully it will be the last time the app needs to be deleted.

In addition to the current limiting, another important firmware update fixes a bug that would delay detection of launch if it happened in the middle of a group of continuity beeps.
 
Thanks Adrian.

Uninstalled version 192 then installed 196 without any issues.

Then I ran a sim with version 196 and while I've not looked at the data yet, everything appears normal on the Summary Page.

One Q: when I initially opened version 196 on my Android Phone it 'found' the Sim that I ran just before the update and downloaded the low_rate and high_rate files.

Is this a feature ?

IOW, does the Blue Raven keep the latest onboard flights even after a firmware update ?

Thanks again !

-- kjh
 
Thanks Adrian.

Uninstalled version 192 then installed 196 without any issues.

Then I ran a sim with version 196 and while I've not looked at the data yet, everything appears normal on the Summary Page.

One Q: when I initially opened version 196 on my Android Phone it 'found' the Sim that I ran just before the update and downloaded the low_rate and high_rate files.

Is this a feature ?

IOW, does the Blue Raven keep the latest onboard flights even after a firmware update ?

Thanks again !

-- kjh
Yes, the Blue Raven has memory for two flights. If both are full it erases the oldest one to get ready for the next flight. This way you can power on and off with one flash area ready to go, and still keep your most recent flight. When the phone app connects, it checks to see if there are any flights in the Blue Raven's flash memory that don't match what it already has in the phone database, and downloads that when that's true.
 
Love it. One battery for both gps and the raven. Awesome :)
One caveat is that the Blue Raven is designed to operate through battery under-voltage events but the tracker is not. The Blue Raven needs a battery that does not have cell protection circuitry because a deployment can trip it off. A larger unprotected cell could be a candidate for both, but if the output shorts, the GPS could reset.
 
Wow, this is a fantastic upgrade. Will the same apply to the 29mm version of the Blue Raven as well? And thanks for the reminder about deleting the app before upgrading, that's the kind of thing I often miss when I'm updating apps.


Tony.
 
We are pretty much always in stock with the hardware, but we program and test them in batches and every now and then we forget to update the web store inventory value when we process a new batch, so thanks for checking. If you are unable to order an out of stock items, send a message through the support page and we'll get it fixed.
 
We are pretty much always in stock with the hardware, but we program and test them in batches and every now and then we forget to update the web store inventory value when we process a new batch, so thanks for checking. If you are unable to order an out of stock items, send a message through the support page and we'll get it fixed.
Will do! Thanks!
 
One caveat is that the Blue Raven is designed to operate through battery under-voltage events but the tracker is not. The Blue Raven needs a battery that does not have cell protection circuitry because a deployment can trip it off. A larger unprotected cell could be a candidate for both, but if the output shorts, the GPS could reset.
Do the 400 mAH batteries you sell with the tracker have built-in protection circuitry and therefore would not be suitable to power both? How large of a battery can the BR & GPS handle? If thinking of using an unprotected 600, even up to 1000, mAH.

...Fred
 
Do the 400 mAH batteries you sell with the tracker have built-in protection circuitry and therefore would not be suitable to power both? How large of a battery can the BR & GPS handle? If thinking of using an unprotected 600, even up to 1000, mAH.

...Fred
The 400 mAhr Featherweight tracker batteries have cell protection circuitry. Normal e-matches would likely work, but if it’s also powering a tracker the tracker could reset when a charge fires.

The Blue Raven can be powered by arbitrarily large batteries, especially if they are 1S (3-4.2V)
 
The 400 mAhr Featherweight tracker batteries have cell protection circuitry. Normal e-matches would likely work, but if it’s also powering a tracker the tracker could reset when a charge fires.

The Blue Raven can be powered by arbitrarily large batteries, especially if they are 1S (3-4.2V)
Does this mean the Blue Raven will work with unprotected 18650s? Or is this not recommended?

And because the GPS requires over current protection, if it were to be run off an 18650 it should be a protected cell?

Thanks
 
Using protected cells where you can, is a good idea to reduce the risk of damage from a short and the risk of starting a fire. The Featherweight GPS doesn’t need protected cells but it also doesn’t hurt.

An altimeter firing charges using a protected cell can trip the cell protection circuitry, which could power the altimeter off mid-flight. So unprotected cells are recommended for the Blue Raven. The Blue Raven quickly limits the current to about 4 Amps, so that arbitrarily large cells can be used without risking damage to the Blue Raven. This current limiting may be enough to also avoid tripping cell protection circuitry, but that will vary a lot depending on the battery, so I wouldn’t count on that without a lot of testing of that particular setup.
 
I've been working on a new capability for the Blue Raven firmware over the last few days, which is to limit the current that flows into the output in the event of a short circuit in the load.

Load short circuits aren't that uncommon. Anyone who is firing a head-end igniter for an airstart will almost certainly get a low-resistance short circuit once the motor comes up to pressure, because the glowing gas inside a firing motor is very conductive. I have also had short circuits for other reasons, like an ematch head that had both sides touching a conductive hole. The guidance I have provided since the start of the Raven altimeter has been to only use 9V alkaline batteries or lipo batteries that are small enough that their short circuit current capability is lower than what the output MOSFET transistor can handle (about 20 Amps). This has meant an upper bound on a lipo battery of about 180 mAhrs. That's enough for about 10 hours on the pad for a full discharge, or about 5 hours before the battery gets down to a questionable voltage. Larger batteries can overhead the output MOSFET and cause a permanent failure, and the most common failure mode in this case is to fail short (i.e. the charge fires as soon as power is applied to the altimeter). This has happened to more than one customer over the years who used a lipo battery that was too large.

I designed the Blue Raven to use hardware timer channels to control the outputs, so that the firmware could duty-cycle the output switch at a fast enough rate to cut back the current in a controlled way if the measured deployment current gets too high. I believe I have this capability working now, and I bought some larger RC batteries to test it out. I started the development with a hard short connected across one output, and got it to work when the short was in place at the start of the firing. Then I realized I also needed to cover the case of a short that takes place partway through the output firing, as would happen during an airstart. Here's a test of that, where I start with a 3.3 Ohm load resistor, and then short it out partway through the firing. This is a 400 mAhr lipo that arrived from Amazon yesterday:

View attachment 588638

When the load shorts out, the current shoots up to 34 Amps. The Blue Raven responds by cutting back the current within 2 msec and then controls the output current to a target of 3 Amps for the rest of the output period by reducing the duty cycle.

To push the system even harder, I used a 2S 1000 mAhr battery fully charged up to 8.4V. The Blue Raven survived a short with that battery unscathed also.

I'm gathering up some other firmware bug fixes along with this new feature into a new build that should be available in the next few days.
How much of a risk would there be with a 4s 14.8V lipo? The instruction card with the blue raven we ordered after March 2023 indicated that the max voltage was around 16V, so just checking since the 4s is the only one we have on hand right now so I can order different batteries. I have also seen a similar post about a user with a 3s lipo having their ematches instantaneously ignite upon connection but I know that depended upon configuration of connections.
 
How much of a risk would there be with a 4s 14.8V lipo? The instruction card with the blue raven we ordered after March 2023 indicated that the max voltage was around 16V, so just checking since the 4s is the only one we have on hand right now so I can order different batteries. I have also seen a similar post about a user with a 3s lipo having their ematches instantaneously ignite upon connection but I know that depended upon configuration of connections.
4S would be 16.8V when fully charged. I don't recommend doing that.

You can use the balancing connector on your battery to use it as a 1S while you're waiting for a more appropriate battery (or use a 9V). Just charge it with a balancing charger when you're done.
 
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