1515 Pads

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You need to able to lay the rail over to load rockets?

Jim
The piece that holds the rail can still hinge if is square in cross section. The pipe seems like an awkward connection to a rail. The only advantage I can see is the rail would overhang from the pipe so rockets can slide down further. Anyway this is somewhat academic. All of these designs are pretty study and look great.
 
The piece that holds the rail can still hinge if is square in cross section. The pipe seems like an awkward connection to a rail. The only advantage I can see is the rail would overhang from the pipe so rockets can slide down further. Anyway this is somewhat academic. All of these designs are pretty study and look great.
Ah, I understand your question. The primary purpose of the pipe is to stiffen the rail itself. There are certainly many clubs that don't stiffen their rails in some manner, but it is my opinion that this is an important thing to do. I do this on 1515 rails, even though most wouldn't, and I never fly off of an unsupported 1010 rail. I had no choice at AirFest a couple of years ago, and sure enough, rod whip cause my two-stage flight to take off at an angle. More times than not, I show up at launches with my own rails. It turns out that the pipe and also serve as the connection to the pad if you just design it that way.

So, to answer your question, the mount to the pad isn't square because the result of that would be an unsupported rail. If you fly at our field, you only get supported rails.

Jim
 
I may not be following the drawings closely, but what is the advantage of this? You have an extra connection set that can fail it seems. Why not just have a sturdy female square-mount for the rail itself on the pad.
By adding an iron pipe backer to the rail, you make it MUCH stiffer, especially if it's a longer rail. The 1515 rail is pretty stiff, but if you are using a 8' or 10' length, it can flex under the load of a heavy rocket or an extreme motor. And by using a pipe, you distribute the clamping forces along the rail, rather than concentrating them at the bottom. The aluminum is relatively soft and deforms under a lot of clamping pressure. The pipe is relatively inexpensive and makes a big difference in overall safety and longevity of the rail.

And if you are asking about the ability to pivot the rail, exactly as Jim says, you want to be able to lay the rail down so you can easily load the rocket. Our club had some old pads that are as you described - the rail attached directly to the pad. You basically had to tip the entire pad over to load it, or take the rail off, slide it over the buttons, and then remount it. Neither was a good option and many visitors were confused by the lack of ability to rotate the rail.

No one ever said "I wish our launch pad wasn't so sturdy or easy to use".


Tony

(I see I posted almost the same time as Jim, so sorry for a lot of duplicate info)
 
Ah, I understand your question. The primary purpose of the pipe is to stiffen the rail itself. There are certainly many clubs that don't stiffen their rails in some manner, but it is my opinion that this is an important thing to do. I do this on 1515 rails, even though most wouldn't, and I never fly off of an unsupported 1010 rail. I had no choice at AirFest a couple of years ago, and sure enough, rod whip cause my two-stage flight to take off at an angle. More times than not, I show up at launches with my own rails. It turns out that the pipe and also serve as the connection to the pad if you just design it that way.

So, to answer your question, the mount to the pad isn't square because the result of that would be an unsupported rail. If you fly at our field, you only get supported rails.

Jim
Okay that makes sense. How long is the pipe?
 
Okay that makes sense. How long is the pipe?
I usually arrange for it to go to within a few feet of the top of the rail. It might be supported along the rail by nominally 5 "shoes" that fit the rail slot (getting them lined up is a chore). Maybe I can find a pic in a while.

Jim
 
I usually arrange for it to go to within a few feet of the top of the rail. It might be supported along the rail by nominally 5 "shoes" that fit the rail slot (getting them lined up is a chore). Maybe I can find a pic in a while.

Jim
Okay that is quite substantial! I have seen some pipes at launches and they were only a foot or two. I thought that is what you were talking about. A nearly full length pipe seems very strong.
 
AeroPac..has used Coker pads https://www.nar.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/AeroPacStyle-HPR-Pad-John-Coker.pdf for a long time. The rails have always had a "backing". They worked out great until Aerotech and others came out with hard hitting motors We began to have 1515 rail whip issues. It was not the rail or backing. It was the mount to the base that needed beefing up. We did that and have not had any problems with rail whip.

We use modified Coker pads at Spaceport America Cup. and have not had any problems with rail whip on up to 100 pound rockets.



A couple months back I helped Jim put his pad together. I helped for about 4 hours. Mostly lifting things that needed two guys to lift and adjust. Was/is his pad over kill? Nope! Not when the project weighs a couple hundred pounds and lifting off on a Q motor.

we all have different needs...when we talk about big rockets and large motors that means different things to different people.

Tony
 
AeroPac..has used Coker pads https://www.nar.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/AeroPacStyle-HPR-Pad-John-Coker.pdf for a long time. The rails have always had a "backing". They worked out great until Aerotech and others came out with hard hitting motors We began to have 1515 rail whip issues. It was not the rail or backing. It was the mount to the base that needed beefing up. We did that and have not had any problems with rail whip.

We use modified Coker pads at Spaceport America Cup. and have not had any problems with rail whip on up to 100 pound rockets.



A couple months back I helped Jim put his pad together. I helped for about 4 hours. Mostly lifting things that needed two guys to lift and adjust. Was/is his pad over kill? Nope! Not when the project weighs a couple hundred pounds and lifting off on a Q motor.

we all have different needs...when we talk about big rockets and large motors that means different things to different people.

Tony

Thanks for the comments. In terms of size, think large L2 and small L3 class rockets. Once key detail. the waiver is 3000 ft which means high thrust, short duration motors in fairly heavy rockets. Specifically I am planning to fly K1999 in rockets up to 50 pounds.
 
AeroPac..has used Coker pads https://www.nar.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/AeroPacStyle-HPR-Pad-John-Coker.pdf for a long time. The rails have always had a "backing". They worked out great until Aerotech and others came out with hard hitting motors We began to have 1515 rail whip issues. It was not the rail or backing. It was the mount to the base that needed beefing up. We did that and have not had any problems with rail whip.

We use modified Coker pads at Spaceport America Cup. and have not had any problems with rail whip on up to 100 pound rockets.

A couple months back I helped Jim put his pad together. I helped for about 4 hours. Mostly lifting things that needed two guys to lift and adjust. Was/is his pad over kill? Nope! Not when the project weighs a couple hundred pounds and lifting off on a Q motor.

we all have different needs...when we talk about big rockets and large motors that means different things to different people.

Tony
I was trying to remember if the Spaceport (17') rails were double-wide or had a backing. The picture on the video shows the backing - it's all coming back to me now. Maybe some day I'll touch them again!

Yeah, my rail is more like an I-beam. But at least it fits in my car and hasn't broken yet (and I've tried).

But my recommendation for backed rails isn't from my larger rockets - it's from watching rockets fly off of unsupported rails.

Jim
 
The Coker pads are good but they are very low and makes photography of a launch in an area filled with sagebrush difficult.
 
I was trying to remember if the Spaceport (17') rails were double-wide or had a backing. The picture on the video shows the backing - it's all coming back to me now. Maybe some day I'll touch them again!

Yeah, my rail is more like an I-beam. But at least it fits in my car and hasn't broken yet (and I've tried).

But my recommendation for backed rails isn't from my larger rockets - it's from watching rockets fly off of unsupported rails.

Jim

17 foot..
2 feet of 3x3x.25
4 feet of 2x2x.25
10 feet of 1.5 x 1.5

to refresh your memory...

booms1.jpg

I'm bringing 8 new pads which will give us 20 pads total.

Tony
 
I'm always amaze at how things evolve. We used to launch HPR on 1/4" - 1" rods. We went to 1010 and 1515 because they were much stiffer and safer.

Now 1010 and 1515 aren't good enough. How stiff does a rail have to be? 4" I-beams?

Has anyone looked at 1020, 1030, 1530 or 1545 rails?

Has anyone really looked at "rod whip" on 1010 or 1515 rails? My initial though would be that the pad base has more to do with it than the rails.
 
I'm always amaze at how things evolve. We used to launch HPR on 1/4" - 1" rods. We went to 1010 and 1515 because they were much stiffer and safer.

Now 1010 and 1515 aren't good enough. How stiff does a rail have to be? 4" I-beams?

Has anyone looked at 1020, 1030, 1530 or 1545 rails?

Has anyone really looked at "rod whip" on 1010 or 1515 rails? My initial though would be that the pad base has more to do with it than the rails.
I had similar thoughts and most of my experience with hobby rockets was in the 90s and early 2000s when rods were still a popular launch guide. It is worth noting that length is really important and the deflection is not linear with length but rather cubic. A 10 ft rail will flop a lot more than a 6 ft. It is also worth noting that projects have gotten more aggressive since that time.

A truss is the way to go for larger rockets. My post was for pad options for rockets just below where a truss would be required.
 
I'm always amaze at how things evolve. We used to launch HPR on 1/4" - 1" rods. We went to 1010 and 1515 because they were much stiffer and safer.

Now 1010 and 1515 aren't good enough. How stiff does a rail have to be? 4" I-beams?

Has anyone looked at 1020, 1030, 1530 or 1545 rails?

Has anyone really looked at "rod whip" on 1010 or 1515 rails? My initial though would be that the pad base has more to do with it than the rails.
In our case it was the mount between the rail boom and pad base.
Then to remove all the whip we removed the blast deflectors from being mounted to the rails.
Our blast deflectors are now 2'x2' x 1/4" steel plates that sit on top of the legs. With them sitting flat on the legs its even force from the motors blast.

Tony
 
My eight year old Fade to Black pad took a massive hit from a research load that failed on ignition. 75/6000 casing packs a lot of power when it goes off!
Looking at the Frankum Performance TRI-2 but am concerned with the 1/8" aluminum blast deflector. We fly a lot of M and N motors, and even steel blast deflectors fail at times. Does anyone have real life experience with these pads over time?
 
My eight year old Fade to Black pad took a massive hit from a research load that failed on ignition. 75/6000 casing packs a lot of power when it goes off!
Looking at the Frankum Performance TRI-2 but am concerned with the 1/8" aluminum blast deflector. We fly a lot of M and N motors, and even steel blast deflectors fail at times. Does anyone have real life experience with these pads over time?
I have a TRI-3 and Biggun. They are great pads and well built.
 
You can also order rails on Amazon. The price is good and they deliver directly to you.
YUP. They will deliver up to the 8-foot length right to your house. A few years ago, they sold a 14 foot. I have two. Unfortunately, they will not fit in my trailer.
 
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