The "El Chubbo" project

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Landshark

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I wasn't sure of which forum to post this in, but here goes...

During my second BAR episode (around 97-98) I built a few of the Estes Fat_Boy kits. With its stubby proportions, BT-80 size tube, TTW construction, chunky nose cone and majestic, slow take offs, it quickly became one of my favorite kits..

I think I built several of them back then and still have my 24mm version that I flew as recently as last month. I was a little bummed to find out that Estes no longer makes this kit and want to see if others feel the same way.

I've got access to a supply of nose cones and have considered having tubes pre-slotted and fins laser cut to make a few (around 5-20 or so) clones. I've read the posts here on intellectual property and using Estes kit names, so if everything works out, I may call this clone "El Chubbo"...and/or check with Estes to make sure they're not opposed to the idea.

While I'm at it, I think there are some improvements to be made:
-properly cut TTW fin slots (the stock ones were too narrow)
-24mm motor mount (you could still do 18mm with an adapter)
-Fins with TTW tabs to go with the 24mm mount
-kevlar shock cord mount system (I'm on my third tri-fold mount on my stock one)

I've got the specs and I'm working with a prototype. Running the numbers, I think the El Chubbo would be pretty reasonable to kit and super fun (in a 90's retro way, I guess) to build. I'd have to think about decals and parachute options (or let the user decide what to use).

Any feedback on the idea?

I'd probably want to get an idea of how many people would be interested before I finalize everything...

I'm not trying to make a killing on this and I realize it's not_that_hard to clone this model, but I feel like it's a worthy cause for someone to "bring it back" from the dead.

Here's a shot of my 24mm version ready to fly last month. That flight with a C11-3 went into one of the only trees in the park and required a massive effort with PVC tubes to get it down...

FB_photo_1.jpg
 
Post a price(ballpark) and shipping and it sounds like you have a winner!
How about Chubby Kid or Chubby Child for a name?

Wait, thats my idea...I want royalites...
 
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I'm in, if it dosen't come with sticker shock.

("Sticker shock": as in being shocked to see the price on the sticker. NOT as in Stickershock23.com, maker of fine vinyl stickers with pages of scale, upscale and custom rocket decals)
 
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I'm curious to know about the technique with PVC recovery. Tried that with a rocket last month using 1/4" and 3/4" pvc and had a dismal time of it. Oh yes and I'd be up for a Fat Boy clone too.
 
But... It's just a clone. Why not jazz it up a little more (BAM!).

I know there's not a LOT you can do with it but still, just duping Estes and selling it... (yeah, I know... very thin ice now).

I mean, what you plan to do sounds like a great idea on one hand.

But, shouldn't we all write Estes with our "BRING BACK" requests? Let them know that there is still interest in some kits, and beg them to sell them again.

Of course, if that doesn't work, dupe the sucker. Still, give Estes a chance to make some money on their own design.

My $0.02
 
bradycros said:
I'm in, if it dosen't come with sticker shock.

("Sticker shock": as in being shocked to see the price on the sticker. NOT as in Stickershock23.com, maker of fine vinyl stickers with pages of scale, upscale and custom rocket decals)
Click to expand...


So you are saying being "Shocked" can sometimes be a good thing ! LOL

You know when I came up with the name, I never really thought about the connotations it holds...

So if you are going to kit the "El Chubbo" you gonna do some big ones too?
 
Be sure to offer a 54mm version, as well.

~ AL


never forget Andy Schecter's single use I65 powered stock cept motor mount, Fat Boy ... :) . bye bye.
 
never forget Andy Schecter's single use I65 powered stock cept motor mount, Fat Boy ... . bye bye.
Click to expand...

Wow. I'd love to see a video of that. Did he even reinforce the fins, body tube or anything? Sounds rowdy!

I'm in, if it doesn't come with sticker shock.
Click to expand...

As far as pricing goes, the nose cone is by far the most expensive component. Balsa would be more than $10 each, but I think I can get the plastic ones (like stock) for around $6-7 or so. There may be a bigger discount if I'm buying in quantity.

I've got to work out the rest of the pricing on the tubes and fins, but shooting from the hip, I think the kit would be about $15 not counting a parachute or decals. Don't hold me to that number though until I know for sure.

On the subject of parachutes, would anyone really care if it didn't come with one? I mean... I have a few different sizes in my range box all on swivels and I switch them out according to the rocket / conditions. Thoughts?

But... It's just a clone. Why not jazz it up a little more (BAM!).
I know there's not a LOT you can do with it but still, just duping Estes and selling it
Click to expand...

What did you have in mind? For me, what makes the FB awesome is the classic styling and stubby dimensions. I'd be afraid to change those key ingredients.

I thought the 24mm mount plus the kevlar are steps ahead in progress...but I have to say that I considered a cluster option (2x18 or 3x18). Things get complicated with options and special parts, so I decided to keep it simple for now.

So if you are going to kit the "El Chubbo" you gonna do some big ones too?
Click to expand...

I'd love to do that, but that's probably down the road at this point. Maybe a version using 4" or larger LOC tubing?

I'd have to seriously investigate some sort of nose cone solution though... resin cast? fiberglass over foam? I know I could do a custom turned one from balsa, but it'd probably cost more than people would want to pay for the kit.

I'm curious to know about the technique with PVC recovery.
Click to expand...

In that case, I used 1" PVC that I had originally bought for a 3v3 soccer goal (youth soccer eats up a lot of my rocket time). I think the sticks were each 8-10 feet and I coupled them together with some 3-way couplers I had for the same project. Kind of made one long bendy reach pole, but it did the job getting my FB down from a 20' tree or so...
 
Landshark said:
Wow.
On the subject of parachutes, would anyone really care if it didn't come with one? I mean... I have a few different sizes in my range box all on swivels and I switch them out according to the rocket / conditions. Thoughts?
QUOTE]

I could live without another parachute, unless it was a really cool parachute.
Click to expand...
 
I really like the name:) Good luck with the kit. Some sort of unique decal may help as well:)
Cheers
fred
 
Ok... Had someone ask me if I was going to do the 24mm mount in "E" length (3.75") or in the standard length for "fat" single use C's and D's (2.75").

My FB has always been a bit cramped as far as packing the recovery system so my current version has the standard 2.75" mount. Due to the limited area in the body tube and long shoulder on the nose cone, I figured I'd leave it that way.

If I did go with a longer "E" mount, we lose an inch of parachute / wadding space so I'd have to figure out some way of incorporating a modified nose cone (cut off the eyelet end and put in a bulkhead inside the cone to leave more space). Either that or specify a smaller / mylar chute. This would add to the complexity of the kit.

To be quite honest, this thing rips on a D and would probably SCREAM on a composite RMS 24mm load. I'm not really sure the E mount is necessary, but I'm interested in hearing everyone's opinion... I'm leaning towards "keeping it simple"

...and what about a cartoon version of THIS along with the lettering for the decals? Ha-ha!

fat-kid-752322.jpg
 
is that the Google result for "El Chubbo"?
Click to expand...

Ha! No, baby pictures show up when you do that, but the one above captures the spirit. I had also thought of an overweight tequila-sloshed mexican bandito wielding two pistola's type of image, but that's not very PC, I guess.

BTW, here's a vid of my 24mm version on a C11-3 (I believe...delay seems short) taken by my friend's keychain cam taped between the fins. Too fun...

[YOUTUBE]rNEtWTxSrhU[/YOUTUBE]​
 
I have to believe that Estes will eventually resurect the Fat Boy (maybe even with a 24mm mount). But until then, maybe you are onto something. Keep us posted as you come up with more details.

While on the subject of an "E" Fat Boy... I built one (kitbashed as a Saturn1B below) and did the same thing you suggested - cut off the aft end the nose cone and put a bulkhead in it for extra room. But what about just using a simple baffle?

Saturn 1Boy 01 - Copy.jpg
 
Landshark said:
Ok... Had someone ask me if I was going to do the 24mm mount in "E" length (3.75") or in the standard length for "fat" single use C's and D's (2.75").

I'm not really sure the E mount is necessary, but I'm interested in hearing everyone's opinion... I'm leaning towards "keeping it simple"



]
Click to expand...

You could kit it up bare bones. I'm sure many of us would only need the fin templet, info on what the body tube length is and a nose cone. This would keep the cost down and save us having to do research. Any parts needed to satisfy a personal preferance are inexpensive and available at www.balsamachining.com
Or even make thier own parts like centering rings, bulkheads, baffles, ect. ..if thats what they like to do. I like to do it.
 
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Let us know S&H and kit price.I'd like to get one someday.
 
Hey FB! Love the Saturn 1B kit bash! That thing is neat... kind of like a "Fat Goonie!".

But what about just using a simple baffle?
Click to expand...

Not out of the question... what did you have in mind? I just did a TLP kit where the baffle was essentially just a BT50 to 80 CR with extra holes in along the outside edge...

I worked again with the mockup last night and I'm close with the final fin shape. I'll be ordering the sample tubes and fins today, so with any luck I should have parts for the real "prototypes" sometime next week.

You could kit it up bare bones. I'm sure many of us would only need the fin templet, info on what the body tube length is and a nose cone. This would keep the cost down and save us having to do research
Click to expand...
.

Essentially, that's the idea... I like this design so much that I think it's worth re-offering to people who never got the chance to get an original...or who don't want to pay the ebay price for one (I've seen them go as high as $25-$30).

Adding the improvements like the 24mm mount, correct slots, kevlar shock cord mounting, etc should make this even better. I also recognize that some people in the hobby don't have the time / feel like chasing down all the parts to make a clone themselves...

Is it the most complicated or desirable kit out there? Nope...but it should be a fun one.

As far as final pricing, I'll have that soon... the two variables are the decals and the laser cut fins (which get cheaper the more I have made). I'd say though my original estimates are right in the ballpark.
 
bradycros said:
I'm sure many of us would only need the fin templet, info on what the body tube length is and a nose cone.
Click to expand...

If you go into the archives and dig out this old thread:
https://www.rocketryforumarchive.com/showthread.php?t=2175

Scroll down past all the blah-blah-blah (the author is a windbag) and open the EXCEL spreadsheet at the bottom.

The fin pattern on the first worksheet is the Astron Alpha
The fin pattern (and cross-section of the whole rocket) on the second worksheet is the Fatboy

Over in cells N-O-P-70-71-72-73-74 you will find the numbers for coordinates of the corners of the fin planform.
 
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Landshark said:
On the subject of parachutes, would anyone really care if it didn't come with one?
Click to expand...

Myself, I wouldn't care much one way or the other if your kit had a chute. I could work either way.

Maybe I missed a discussion of decals, but would your kit include these? Because if we had to order our own decals from a separate source, one set at a time, it would just about double the cost of the kit for us. I would hope that you could get a price break if you ordered decal sets 50 or 100 at a time.

Also missed any discussion of laser-cut fins. I expect you would do well just to include a plank of balsa and a fin template printed somewhere on your kit instructions. (Make 'em dig out that old X-acto...)

I think it would be pretty tough to replicate the kit (plastic NC, correctly sized parts, decals) at the price that Estes used to have. I suspect that if it was too much higher you might not get a huge bunch of sales. Kinda leaves you a tiny corner in which to try to make all this work out?

I also suspect that Estes will indeed resurrect this little booger---it's just too good to leave out of the catalog. (That "rock" thing just didn't do it for me.) And if there is any small chance that Estes might bring it back, I will probably just wait a few years to see what happens. But then, I can do that because I have a pile of FBs stashed away.

I do hope you can find a way to make a complete kit work out. I think it is great that you might be willing to take this on, because I know you're going to have to put a lot into this and any kit sales are just not going to be enough to let you retire to Key West or anything. My hat's off to you! (if I wore a hat....)
 
Been looking for the plans for the Fat Boy,can't seem to find them.Not even on JimZ's.
 
cjp said:
Been looking for the plans for the Fat Boy,can't seem to find them.Not even on JimZ's.
Click to expand...

Go to rocketshoppe.com
Click Ye Olde Rocket Plans
Click Estes Rocket Plans
Click Model Number 1273

Thats what I used.
And a few other things.

Up scaled to a 3 inch body tube and a 29mm motor mount.

rockets 004.jpg

rockets 009.jpg

rockets 010.jpg

rockets 022.jpg
 
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dragon_rider10 said:
I'm curious to know about the technique with PVC recovery. Tried that with a rocket last month using 1/4" and 3/4" pvc and had a dismal time of it. Oh yes and I'd be up for a Fat Boy clone too.
Click to expand...

Trying to stand even 20 feet of 1/4 inch PVC upright is like trying to push a wet noodle up a wall tail end first!

Use bigger PVC... :D OL JR :)
 
Landshark said:
Ok... Had someone ask me if I was going to do the 24mm mount in "E" length (3.75") or in the standard length for "fat" single use C's and D's (2.75").

My FB has always been a bit cramped as far as packing the recovery system so my current version has the standard 2.75" mount. Due to the limited area in the body tube and long shoulder on the nose cone, I figured I'd leave it that way.

If I did go with a longer "E" mount, we lose an inch of parachute / wadding space so I'd have to figure out some way of incorporating a modified nose cone (cut off the eyelet end and put in a bulkhead inside the cone to leave more space). Either that or specify a smaller / mylar chute. This would add to the complexity of the kit.

To be quite honest, this thing rips on a D and would probably SCREAM on a composite RMS 24mm load. I'm not really sure the E mount is necessary, but I'm interested in hearing everyone's opinion... I'm leaning towards "keeping it simple"

...and what about a cartoon version of THIS along with the lettering for the decals? Ha-ha!

fat-kid-752322.jpg
Click to expand...

Thats almost scary...

Cartooned or not...

chubbo.jpg
 
Stickershock... that's along the lines of the "cartoon" look I was talking about. I wonder if I'd get in trouble for using that kid's likeness. You never know these days...

brady cros... Great looking upscale! How did it fly on the 29mm engines?

Powderburner...
Maybe I missed a discussion of decals, but would your kit include these? Because if we had to order our own decals from a separate source, one set at a time, it would just about double the cost of the kit for us.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's the plan. At the very minimum, I'd like to include the lettering for the kit name and some fin decals in the price of the kit. I'm currently working with a supplier on that.

Since this will be a limited run of kits, I'm thinking of making them truly "numbered". If I produce 20, (not sure total yet), each kit will have fin stickers in it for the sequential number it represents. For example, if you receive El Chubbo #15, then you'd get a 15 to put on one of your fins...

I'd expect to see flight photos and reports of these at events and on EMRR, by the way... hehehe..

Also missed any discussion of laser-cut fins. I expect you would do well just to include a plank of balsa and a fin template printed somewhere on your kit instructions. (Make 'em dig out that old X-acto...)
Click to expand...

I hear what you're saying, but I like the idea of having custom laser cut TTW fins included. The prototypes are on the way and as soon as I have them tested, I'll place the "batch" order.

I think it would be pretty tough to replicate the kit (plastic NC, correctly sized parts, decals) at the price that Estes used to have.
Click to expand...

While I can't match the huge volume discount of Estes when dealing putting out a kit, this will still be reasonable. For the record, these will be ACTUAL Estes NC's that are identical to the originals.

I suspect that if it was too much higher you might not get a huge bunch of sales. Kinda leaves you a tiny corner in which to try to make all this work out?
Click to expand...

As you may have guessed, I'm not going to be making much if anything on this project. No worries. That keeps the price point low. My satisfaction will be when people start flying them / posting pics and having fun with the completed kits...

I built my original FB's when I was about 22-23 and me and my friends could not get enough! There were FAT drag races, FAT altitude competitions, etc. Too much fun! It was that kit that drug me back into BAR-hood, in fact...

I also suspect that Estes will indeed resurrect this little booger---it's just too good to leave out of the catalog.
Click to expand...

Agreed!

Too rainy here in southern Ohio today or else I'd go out and send up a few.
 
Some where in my pile is a unfinished Fat Boy built from scratch TTW Basswood fins and a 24mm mount. Point being picking a name was a long thought process , I just could not make up my mind . So here is what we did.... a simple matter to cut the stickers and rearrange the letters.

FAT BOY became


YO FAT

John
 

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