Hiroshima and Nagasaki, 8/6 and 8/9

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dlazarus6660

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Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Yesterday was the anniversary of Hiroshima.

Please say a prayer for the people of Japan.
 
War is hell or so I've heard. It could have been worse had we invaded the home island.

Prayer sent.
 
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13 years ago, a new 20 year old started work at the firm I was employed at. He believed we should not have droped the A Bombs. I told him to research the Battan Death March & The Rape of Nanking, the attempted coup by the military to keep the Emperor from surrendering and the rumors of Japan working on a nuke themselves, even an actual test of a nuke. Well the next day he agreed that we did the right thing in dropping the A Bomb. I would hate to be the one to decide weather to use the bomb or not. Sitting in an aircraft with a Nuclear Consent Panel gives me the willies!
 
I would hate to be the one to decide weather to use the bomb or not. Sitting in an aircraft with a Nuclear Consent Panel gives me the willies!

I have taken my son to the Udvar-Hazy center several times when we are in MD visiting the in-laws. It never gets less unnearving seening the Enola Gay, and I think that is a good thing. I haven't explained what that plane's place in history to my oldest yet, still only 5, but he is always taken by the "big shiny one."

Putting aside the decision to drop the bombs, and it's being right or wrong by any metric for a moment. I think most can agree that the human cost, and the individual experiences of those that survived and those that did not warrants a prayer. May we never again reach a point so terrible, that such a decision feels remotely possible.
 
War is hell or so I've heard. It could have been worse had we invaded the home island.

Prayer sent.

Agreed. The alternative would have cost a LOT more lives, on both sides. Personally I don't see a difference in killing a bunch of people with high explosives or an atom bomb. If you're killing them, you're killing them. How it's done doesn't enter into it.

The Japanese bomb program was never off the ground, and although they had a few people that realized what could be done with enriched Uranium, they had no way to get it done. There was no large scale project that would be needed for any country to purify enough material to fission.

They did, however, have a lot of bullets and knives, and an invasion of their country would not have been easy or quick. I'd guess that several people reading this might not even be here if that had happened, because your grandfather might not have come home to make your parent.
 
My Dad was with a unit called 'Merrills Mauraders" (75th Rangers today). They fought the Japanese in the China Burma India campaign. My Dad told me as hard as they fought there, he knew fighting them in their own country would be a killing field for both sides. Dropping the bomb was the right thing, maybe not a good thing, there is a difference.
 
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I read this earlier today and figured it to be relevant to this thread - https://disinfo.com/2013/08/hiroshima-nagasaki-and-the-big-historical-lie/

While we're on the topic, I'd like to note that the fact that we live in a world with thousand of nuclear weapons shows that we are extremely sick mentally...the awakening and healing of ourselves and our societies is critical. Sadly, this is usually overlooked, and it seems likely that someday we will all die from this madness writ large.
 
A few years ago, my FIL invited me to a lunch with a man who was a B-29 assistant flight engineer in WWII (PTO). He was assigned to the 509th Composite Group. His plane ("Straight Flush") flew the weather recon for the Enola Gay. Needless to say, that was a very interesting lunch.

Greg
 
I read this earlier today and figured it to be relevant to this thread - https://disinfo.com/2013/08/hiroshima-nagasaki-and-the-big-historical-lie/

While we're on the topic, I'd like to note that the fact that we live in a world with thousand of nuclear weapons shows that we are extremely sick mentally...the awakening and healing of ourselves and our societies is critical. Sadly, this is usually overlooked, and it seems likely that someday we will all die from this madness writ large.

I have read several articles and heard several speeches for and against nuking Japan, conspiracy theories ect. However Teddy's philosophy comes to mind, "Speak softly and carry a big stick", Dictators and rouge countries are like the neighborhood bully, you stand up to them, beat the crap out of them one good time and they leave you alone. Not only did this end the war, it also put a great fear into the other enemies of America, which has long since worn off due to the weak will of current and past politicians.
 
back when I was in college I had a professor who stated that he would never forgive the US for dropping the bomb...he said he could understand the first bombing but he would never understand the need for the second bomb...of course, being a history buff...my hand immediately went up and I asked if he had studied WWII and was he familiar with the way the Japanese fought to the death over worthless specks of coral lost in the middle of the Pacific?

I honestly believe the use of the bombs hastened the end of the war and saved millions of casualties. We were in the process of moving the 8th Airforce to Okinawa so that the Japanese mainland would be within range of the B-17's and B-24's. an invasion of the mainland would have been a disaster for everyone involved and we would have dropped thousands, if not millions of tons of conventional munitions on Japan. I just returned from Europe and a tour of the WWII battlefields, I believe there were between 15,000 to 20,000 French deaths as a result of the Normandy invasion alone and Normandy would have been a kid's play compared to the invasion of Japan. The two planned invasions of Japan involved 14 infantry divisions and 25 divisions respectively...Normandy involved about 9.

Unfortunately, it took the use of a weapon like the atomic bomb to convince some of the leaders of Japan that they were up against a force they could not defeat and that continuation of the war would have led to their complete annihilation. Even then, some of the war lords were still arguing for war.

I will say a prayer for those Japanese that were killed during these bombings...as well as a prayer for everyone that was killed in that war. It's just my opinion that WWII was one of the few wars where there was a very clear side that was good, and a very clear side that was evil. And the side that was evil drew many innocent people into the line of fire.


 
My late father flew 18 missions over Germany as the radio operator and waist gunner of a B-17 bomber. If not for the dropping of the bomb, he would have had to move on to the Pacific theatre and might not have survived to come back a Father myself and my siblings. All in all I think the cost in lives would have been much higher had we not dropped the A bomb.
 

Exactly... we were at war, and war is terrible... We did what we had to do; we didn't start it, but we FINISHED IT. They started it, and reaped the consequences of that.

"Why"?? Because we've become a nation that is SO obsessed with being "sensitive" and "caring" that we have taken it to the point of becoming pansies.

Sad that civilians lost their lives in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but that's WAR. We didn't start it, they did. If they had won, life would be truly intolerable, and there would be a whole lot less people around now than there are, because of all the people they would have raped, abused, and murdered had they won. We're lucky WE WON, because the alternative would be very very ugly.

Say a prayer for the airmen shot down over Japan who were beheaded with samurai swords, or hacked to death with farm tools after landing in their parachutes... or for the crews of the Doolittle Raid shot down over Japan and executed after a show trial... Save your sympathy for those who fought to save us from the ENEMY's cruelties and oppression.

JMHO! OL JR :)
 

Speaking for myself only, and I don't pretend to be a theologian, evangelical, or even nearly as devout as I wish I were. I believe that every life cut short by violence of any kind is a point of sadness, and I pray that the Lord will provide the dead and the living left behind all the measure of comfort that he will give.

This in no way requires me to make a moral judgement about the reasons for the violence, appropriateness of the violent act(s), moral standing of the person(s) who are harmed, or the person(s)/entities/armies/nations who carry out the act. I can pray for a soul without knowing the soul, He knows the soul.

For the record, and so I am not just discounted as a one of the "pansies." I believe the decision to drop the atomic bombs on Japan was the best among a slate of terrible choices at the time. In ending the war this sudden way it is certain that many individual lives on both sides were spared, and that the total lives lost was also a far less sum than would have been lost in a conventional invasion. I also have nothing but the greatest of respect for anyone who fought on the Allied side in WWII, the greatest generation is a well earned title. This is not a war were the victors write the history and decide who was evil and who was good, The ideologies speak for themselves very clearly here.

Please don't read this post with any animosity or condemnation, none is intended. I only want to explain my perspective on why I will pray for the dead and effected, and I would like to extend a Thank you to dlazarus for the reminder to do so.
 
This thread has a dangerous potential but I hope we can have impassioned opinions in an adult manner.

I asked the simple question "why?"....

We did not deploy nuclear weapons against Japan.....the Japan we know today...the friend and ally....the good neighbor...the kind, gentle people and wonderful culture. We deployed nuclear weapons against Imperial Japan....a FAR different nation and culture than today.....a nation and culture that no longer exists. Imperial Japan was an aggressive, racist, intolerant, violent, barbaric nation. I'm not going to recite the volumes of horrific crimes they committed against humanity, it's well documented for anyone to research for themselves. They had to be stopped, and stopped with as FEW American lives as possible. We used the best tools we had at the time.

No regrets. NO apologies. No prayers. We won.

I will say a prayer for all the good, decent human beings on the planet who live to be good neighbors, friends, citizens of their nations and respect their fellow members of the human race. All the others can suck it.
 
This thread has a dangerous potential but I hope we can have impassioned opinions in an adult manner.

I asked the simple question "why?"....

I only set out to explain my perspective, which I recognize will not be a position everyone will understand and/or agree with. I also, agree that this is a thread that could rapidly spin out of control, but I am thus far impressed by the general civility.
 
Ironically, since you haven't noticed, the original poster pulled the pin on a hand grenade and threw it into the room and then left. A classic "troll" post from a lifetime member. :clap:
 
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I don't think it HAS to go off, and I'm glad that it hasn't thus far...just a bit of smoking. I learn more from people who don't share my exact point of view than I do from the like minded. Providing of course that the grenade doesn't go off that is.

I'm not mad at anyone, in fact, I'm really hoping Fred brings that sweet Mercury Redstone of his to an upcoming DARS launch, so, I can ogle it and talk with him about it.
 
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OK, see my post above & know my positive position for the A Bombs use. Having said that, I have nothing but respect for our Ally today & respect for the honor that some of the WWII Japanese warriors showed. I believe that we did more as victors for our defeated enemy's than any nation has ever done. The Japanese people loved MacArthur, and we did alright by the Germans also (Berlin Airlift!).
 
I'm not mad at anyone, in fact, I'm really hoping Fred brings that sweet Mercury Redstone of his to an upcoming DARS launch, so, I can ogle it and talk with him about it.

I'd like to bring it and the Saturn V.....the next DARS Launch is going to be tight for me. Every 7 weeks, I get OnCall Pager. I'm required to provide a 15 minute response and cover from Noon to 8:00 PM. (India covers the rest) Tuesday to Monday I'm basically housebound for those 8 hours. Sux.

BUT....now that I know better where it is and what routes to avoid, maybe I can get there early to help setup, and get a few flights in real quick. I'll have to leave by 11:00 or 11:15 to get home, or be within 15 minutes of my house. Through the rest of the year, it only conflicts with this launch and the October meeting.

Have to play this one by ear....
 
1. It's too bad it happened.

2. It's too bad it had to happen.

3. Hopefully it will never happen again.
 
This thread has a dangerous potential but I hope we can have impassioned opinions in an adult manner.

I asked the simple question "why?"....

We did not deploy nuclear weapons against Japan.....the Japan we know today...the friend and ally....the good neighbor...the kind, gentle people and wonderful culture. We deployed nuclear weapons against Imperial Japan....a FAR different nation and culture than today.....a nation and culture that no longer exists. Imperial Japan was an aggressive, racist, intolerant, violent, barbaric nation. I'm not going to recite the volumes of horrific crimes they committed against humanity, it's well documented for anyone to research for themselves. They had to be stopped, and stopped with as FEW American lives as possible. We used the best tools we had at the time.

No regrets. NO apologies. No prayers. We won.

I will say a prayer for all the good, decent human beings on the planet who live to be good neighbors, friends, citizens of their nations and respect their fellow members of the human race. All the others can suck it.

I agree with all your points above completely...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Sushi is one of my most favorite things, glad the two sides were able to come to terms in the end.
 
I read this earlier today and figured it to be relevant to this thread - https://disinfo.com/2013/08/hiroshima-nagasaki-and-the-big-historical-lie/

While we're on the topic, I'd like to note that the fact that we live in a world with thousand of nuclear weapons shows that we are extremely sick mentally...the awakening and healing of ourselves and our societies is critical. Sadly, this is usually overlooked, and it seems likely that someday we will all die from this madness writ large.
The numbers don't lie, but the author of the article fails to look at the facts, nor does he understand Japanese culture. The casualties in the Pacific Theater of WW2 can be found here. https://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/C/a/Casualties.htm While the Japanese Military represent 30% of the military dead, they represent 68% of the prisoners of war and only 3% of the wounded, and their civilian population suffered only 1.5% of the civilian casualties of the war. The numbers show that the Japanese did not take prisoners and killed millions of civilians in the countries they invaded, but had relatively few civilian casualties in Japan until the 2 atomic bombings which accounted for the majority of the 400,000 Japanese civilian casualties in the war. The Japanese culture instills a sense of honor in death and an unquestioning respect for authority, and there should be no doubt that the civilian population, when ordered to defend their homeland, would have fought to the death attempting to kill the invading Allied forces. Millions of Japanese civilians and hundreds of thousands of Allied troops would have died if an invasion was necessary to end the war. The atomic bombings were a brutal but necessary action to force the surrender of Japan and saved millions of lives and the country and culture of Japan. Japan was the clear aggressor in the Pacific War. Japan invaded China, India, the East Indies and the Philippines. The Japanese military killed over 25,000,000 civilians in these countries in the process, while less than 200,000 civilians died in Japan until the atomic bombs were dropped. The civilian Japanese population, who supported the war effort, were little affected by the fighting until 1945, and without the atomic bombs, the war would have dragged on for at least a year resulting in a factor of 10 to 100 more deaths than the 2 bombs caused. IMO our political and military leaders during WW2 agreed with General Fox Conner who had principles of war for a democracy. They were:
  • Never fight unless you have to;
  • Never fight alone; and
  • Never fight for long.
 
Your argument completely ignores the Soviet intervention and Japanese fear of the Soviets taking even more territory in the northern islands than they eventually did. It also ignores the resource exhaustion the U.S. submarine blockade had achieved by cutting Japan off from all natural resources in the East Indies. There is significant evidence that the internal debate within the Japanese hierarchy about whether to surrender or continue fighting was not influenced by the atomic bombings. There is also an undertone to your argument that the Japanese "deserved" to be on the receiving end of, so far, the only use of nuclear weapons in war. The propaganda about saving both American and Japanese lives has always served that same argument in a purely apologist way. The need to take credit for the behavior of others is one of the less than enlightened features of American "Exceptionalism," and is badly in need of critical rethinking. It continues to be the source of friction between us and the rest of the world.

The numbers don't lie, but the author of the article fails to look at the facts, nor does he understand Japanese culture. The casualties in the Pacific Theater of WW2 can be found here. https://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/C/a/Casualties.htm While the Japanese Military represent 30% of the military dead, they represent 68% of the prisoners of war and only 3% of the wounded, and their civilian population suffered only 1.5% of the civilian casualties of the war. The numbers show that the Japanese did not take prisoners and killed millions of civilians in the countries they invaded, but had relatively few civilian casualties in Japan until the 2 atomic bombings which accounted for the majority of the 400,000 Japanese civilian casualties in the war. The Japanese culture instills a sense of honor in death and an unquestioning respect for authority, and there should be no doubt that the civilian population, when ordered to defend their homeland, would have fought to the death attempting to kill the invading Allied forces. Millions of Japanese civilians and hundreds of thousands of Allied troops would have died if an invasion was necessary to end the war. The atomic bombings were a brutal but necessary action to force the surrender of Japan and saved millions of lives and the country and culture of Japan. Japan was the clear aggressor in the Pacific War. Japan invaded China, India, the East Indies and the Philippines. The Japanese military killed over 25,000,000 civilians in these countries in the process, while less than 200,000 civilians died in Japan until the atomic bombs were dropped. The civilian Japanese population, who supported the war effort, were little affected by the fighting until 1945, and without the atomic bombs, the war would have dragged on for at least a year resulting in a factor of 10 to 100 more deaths than the 2 bombs caused. IMO our political and military leaders during WW2 agreed with General Fox Conner who had principles of war for a democracy. They were:
  • Never fight unless you have to;
  • Never fight alone; and
  • Never fight for long.
 
Your argument completely ignores the Soviet intervention and Japanese fear of the Soviets taking even more territory in the northern islands than they eventually did. It also ignores the resource exhaustion the U.S. submarine blockade had achieved by cutting Japan off from all natural resources in the East Indies. There is significant evidence that the internal debate within the Japanese hierarchy about whether to surrender or continue fighting was not influenced by the atomic bombings. There is also an undertone to your argument that the Japanese "deserved" to be on the receiving end of, so far, the only use of nuclear weapons in war. The propaganda about saving both American and Japanese lives has always served that same argument in a purely apologist way. The need to take credit for the behavior of others is one of the less than enlightened features of American "Exceptionalism," and is badly in need of critical rethinking. It continues to be the source of friction between us and the rest of the world.

I don't think that it's purely an apologetic way of thinking when someone says that the use of atomic weapons saved lives. It may be that forces within Japan were already discussing the approach of the Soviet Army and that the submarine blockade was already contributing to that discussion. The difficulty, historically speaking, is asserting that the bombs might not have been necessary is that Truman, and the Allied powers had no way of knowing that. Certainly, that was the intent and the hope of doing those things, but when the decision had to be made, the man who had to make it did not have the facts that we have available to us fifty years later. Had he known, particularly given what we know of how he agonized over the decision anyway, it it quite possible that the President might have chosen another option or tried to give the blockade more time. The thing is, he didn't know what we know and we cannot condemn anyone for doing the best they can with the facts that are available. This is exactly what has been described as "the fog of war."
 
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