Parachute packing question

Hi all, recently I did my first launch of a newly built Loc Warloc 7.5" dia. I flew in on an I-284(6). The flight was perfect except for the recovery. The chute never unfurled resulting in a broken fin. I've launched many, many 4" rockets over the years and never had an issue. This of course uses a 60" chute and I'm using a 24" blast blanket, which wasn't a part of the failure. Does anyone have any proven chute prep suggestions? Thanks!!

How did you pack the parachute? Did you wrap the lines around it, or did you fold them up inside it?

-Kevin

I wrapped the lines around it, which I'm learning is incorrect.

sunderll said:

I wrapped the lines around it, which I'm learning is incorrect.

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Yep. Wrapping lines around a nylon chute is never a good idea -- they have a tendency to come down in a wad, as you learned the hard way.

Lay your parachute down (floor, table, ground, whatever is convenient), and stretch it out. Flatten out the canopy and get it relatively tidy. Then, grab the middle of the lines and pull them up onto the canopy, until the end of the lines is an inch or so from the bottom of the canopy. Fold the canopy, so that the lines are folded up in it.

-Kevin

One of our forum member's (cjl) made a parachute packing tutorial, which I distilled into a .pdf View attachment CJL Parachute Folding.pdf.

Greg

This is really great information, thank you all!!! Cert 2 attempt in a week or so and I want just one good flight

qquake2k, so true, me either, that's why I was so surprised to watch it fall with a ball of nylon following it. I expected it to unfurl at any instant. IT DIDN'T.....

sunderll said:

This is really great information, thank you all!!! Cert 2 attempt in a week or so and I want just one good flight

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Good luck on your Level 2! It just so happens that I wrapped the shroud lines around the chute on my successful Level 2 flight. I also used a Nomex blanket.

sunderll said:

qquake2k, so true, me either, that's why I was so surprised to watch it fall with a ball of nylon following it. I expected it to unfurl at any instant. IT DIDN'T.....

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There are so many things that can go wrong. I'm sure a lot of my successes were just plain luck. But I do ALWAYS open and "fluff" the chute right before a launch, then pack it. That way I can make sure there's no damage or tangles, etc. I also use really long shock cords, and I always bundle them with small rubber bands. That way there's less chance the cord will tangle and foul the chute.

Yes, absolutely on all points. I'm also going to use the fold and rubber band method...

one thing to remember no matter how you pack it, is it needs to get out on ejection to catch the wind so it can do it's job. I had one a week or so ago, MPR, that I wasn't really paying attention when I packed up, not completely come out. On inspection, I had packed the shock cord on top instead of on bottom so the chute didn't deploy all the way...

no damage to it, but a good reminder to pay attention! lol

Spooks said:

one thing to remember no matter how you pack it, is it needs to get out on ejection to catch the wind so it can do it's job. I had one a week or so ago, MPR, that I wasn't really paying attention when I packed up, not completely come out. On inspection, I had packed the shock cord on top instead of on bottom so the chute didn't deploy all the way...

no damage to it, but a good reminder to pay attention! lol

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I usually pack the shock cord after the parachute on my zipperless designs. Haven't had any problems.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?37382-Sprite-6-quot-and-a-baby-O&p=456460#post456460 - Probably too late, and likely not really what you are looking for. But, I documented some of the prep for my rocket which included some chute packing. This is oriented to using a deployment bag with a pilot which is also the drogue, and a main plus a nosecone chute in the freebag. So not a common arrangement. But perhaps it can give some ideas.

With a bag, the "stuffing" technique rather than z-folds is also excellent. I didn't want to use it with the two chutes. I also z-fold rather than stuff when using a blanket as is common for smaller rockets.

G_T..thank you! I successfully Certified L2 on Saturday, and the chute worked flaawlessly. I had viewed some great videos on chute packing, and also, my daughter showed up with her boyfriend who is a master parachute rigger as well as a veteran jumper. He agreed with how I had folded it and it deployed perfectly. I am interested in eventually trying a deplyment bag though.

Les TRA 5148

L1
L2

Once you try a dbag, it is hard to go back! But they range quite a bit in style and quality. Just like chutes.

Congratulations!

Thanks, Yes, tha's my next goal is the Dbag!

Hi:

I fit a 48" Fruity Chutes (semi-elliptical: maximum drag coefficient, less fabric) with 20 feet of 1/4" Kevlar shock-cord, a Nomex blanket, a bridal, swivel and an audible recovery beacon in a 3" x 10" space by using the techniques used for man-rated parachutes which are designed for deployment success and packing efficiency. Check out this link for a technique used by Smoke Jumpers: https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpub...72835dpi72.pdf
I do not fold the edges inward as shown on page 14, fig.17; this is done to slow down the opening speed of the parachute and minimize deceleration forces on the skydiver or rocket; it may be worth a try. Spherachutes are also excellent; they are hemispherical and very well made. Fruity Chutes and Spherachutes are also the best looking chutes out there (no affiliation, just a proud user of both brands).
I fold the suspension lines in the center of the chute before folding as shown in fig. 18, page 15. See Step 4 here: https://www.aircommandrockets.com/parachutes.htm
The only thing that sticks out is the cute attachment point. I then fold the chute from the crown down per Steps 7 and 8 (air command link) but keep going all the way down and skip 9, 10 and 11. I don't use the z-folding technique some people use. I wrap the parachute "burrito-style" (see Vern's rocketry site) so only the swivel and a bit of the bridal sticks out towards the nose cone. I use a square Nomex blanket which is attached to the shock-cord to avoid the possibility of it "traveling" up towards the chute and tangling it. Man-rated parachutes NEVER have the suspension lines or harnesses or anything wrapped around the chute so I do the same. I z-fold the shock-cord and secure with a loose rubber band: I use about a 3" depth of dog-barf which I pack forming a piston. I have never scorched a chute. I also use homemade Crimson Powder.....lower burning temperature, lower residue no rotten-egg smell, no corrosive sulfur-derived acids. The shock-cord goes in first, the burrito/parachute next, the nose cone...well last.........And......ground test...ground test.
I hope this helps,
Paul

Random Flying Object said:

https://www.apogeerockets.com/downloads/Newsletter184.pdf

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I read that article...excellent advice

I known a lot people have their own way of packing chutes, but has anyone ever packed a military flare chute and trying to get the lines to come together with that center reefer line? It looks so easy when you untangle them when they come in their bag, but I find myself scratching my head later?:confused2:

Also what is the preferred/best method to pack the Nomex blanket. Do you guys wrap the blanket around the chute like a burrito or do you lay it over the diameter of the rocket and just push it in with the chute in the middle of it??

I've been using the burrito method, but would like to hear other's techniques.

qquake2k said:

I usually pack the shock cord after the parachute on my zipperless designs. Haven't had any problems.

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Man, I have had two do this to me when I let the shock cord stay on top or go in after the chute, I gave up and got a couple of shock cord protectors!!

troj said:

Yep. Wrapping lines around a nylon chute is never a good idea -- they have a tendency to come down in a wad, as you learned the hard way.

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Hmmm. That sounds great on 4" wide rockets or more but on an a smaller diameter rocket (say, 2.6" or whatever a Mirage is) you HAVE to wrap the lines around a single chute recovery or else it won't fit in the tube (loosely)! Or am I missing something?

I have used a 10" chute in an Estes Big Bertha with the lines folded nicely inside with perfect deployment, both plastic and nylon...it does work

majordude said:

Hmmm. That sounds great on 4" wide rockets or more but on an a smaller diameter rocket (say, 2.6" or whatever a Mirage is) you HAVE to wrap the lines around a single chute recovery or else it won't fit in the tube (loosely)! Or am I missing something?

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It comes down to how you're folding the parachute. I've fit parachutes into 2.1" airframes without wrapping lines, no problem.

-Kevin

I watched my rocket drop from 4000 feet dragging behind it a chute that had been carefully folded but with wound cords around it crash. Everything perfect- except one line popped off unwinding in opposite direction staying perfectly balanced all the way down. Any turbulence would have cleared it but that bundle streamed horizontally all the way down. Swore off that technique and now only pack chutes with cords folded inside. I add plenty of z-folded taped up shock cord sections to minimized the faster unfurling. So far no issues!

I've seen and read all the warnings to not wrap a chute. I typically do. I had some issues with tangles in the early days with estes rockets, but I quickly learned you have to be very very careful with how it's done. Reviewing photos of ejection/deployment, It shows the wrap delays the chute from poping right open at speed. All the parts have a second or two to start tumbling and decelerate.

DizWolf said:

I've seen and read all the warnings to not wrap a chute. I typically do. I had some issues with tangles in the early days with estes rockets, but I quickly learned you have to be very very careful with how it's done. Reviewing photos of ejection/deployment, It shows the wrap delays the chute from poping right open at speed. All the parts have a second or two to start tumbling and decelerate.

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Plastic parachutes versus Nylon are entirely different -- wrapping them around plastic typically doesn't present problems.

With Nylon, if things shift just a bit, whether while you're prepping the rocket, or in flight, and you end up with what I refer to as a parawad -- the lines are caught and won't unroll until the tension is gone, which happens when it hits the ground.

It's kinda like the forged versus bent wire eyebolt thing -- "I use them and it hasn't failed me, yet". That's the key -- "yet".

The tangled lines due to lines being wrapped around a chute are entirely preventable. Why not prevent it before it happens to you?

-Kevin

troj said:

Plastic parachutes versus Nylon are entirely different -- wrapping them around plastic typically doesn't present problems.

With Nylon, if things shift just a bit, whether while you're prepping the rocket, or in flight, and you end up with what I refer to as a parawad -- the lines are caught and won't unroll until the tension is gone, which happens when it hits the ground.

It's kinda like the forged versus bent wire eyebolt thing -- "I use them and it hasn't failed me, yet". That's the key -- "yet".

The tangled lines due to lines being wrapped around a chute are entirely preventable. Why not prevent it before it happens to you?

-Kevin

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I mostly agree. However, much like using a bent wire eye bolt in an unweighted NC that's going to receive no shock load I think there's a time and right way to wrap. If you tightly wind the cords over themselves, you do risk a Chinese finger trap style bind. Like anything else, if you're careless it will fail. If you follow the style Gene shows for wrapping Fruity Chutes it shouldn't bind up. I've been wrapping my 3' rocketman chute much the same way and it unwinds cleanly every time. With only 4 lines it's even easier to keep neat.
I've got a little over 200 photos of deployments I'm trying to find a good way to present. (loading to flickr now) I realize it's widely accepted that wrapping is a terrible idea. I respectfully disagree, and think if done properly it's no more risky than any other practice. That leads to the question why to do it... For me, it makes it easier to pack into smaller ( 3" or less) tubes, and lets everything slow down a bit before snapping tight. I believe this helps avoid zippers. Looking at all the photos it does seem to allow some parts to collide. But I think that's an ejection delay issue, not deployment.

DizWolf said:

However, much like using a bent wire eye bolt in an unweighted NC that's going to receive no shock load I think there's a time and right way to wrap.

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Ya know, it's funny... Just last weekend I was having a conversation with someone who said he didn't believe it could happen...until someone showed him pictures of a LOC-type rocket, no weight in the nosecone, with the eyebolt straightened.

[/quote]If you tightly wind the cords over themselves, you do risk a Chinese finger trap style bind. Like anything else, if you're careless it will fail. If you follow the style Gene shows for wrapping Fruity Chutes it shouldn't bind up.[/QUOTE]

"Shouldn't"....unless things slip and shift once they're in the tube, and out of your control.

Personally, I prefer not to play the odds, since it's so very easy to prevent it entirely by not wrapping lines.

It's just like the bent wire eyebolts. It's always interesting to be nearby when someone says, "Well, it's never done that before" as they hold up the separated piece of a small rocket, with the eyebolt straightened.

-Kevin