Estes ProSeries II motors, ingiters not included!

qquake2k said:

In fact, the three packs of Estes BP motors come with four igniters.

Click to expand...

Well, they used to. A few years back, Estes would include four igniters with a 18mm three engine pack.
The igniters weren't as reliable as they are now.

Since I got back into the hobby, now only three igniters are included with 18mm three engines.
They do include four plugs in the three engine pack.
I have lots of extra plugs sitting around.

13mm four engine packs have four igniters and four plugs.

Let us be clear.

18mm motors come in a 3 pack but they exist in two different 3 packs.

The standard hobby shop 3 pack has 3 igniters and 4 plugs.

The mass-merchandiser 3 pack has 4 igniters and 4 plugs and a mini wadding packet. They do this because mass merchandisers cannot sell extra igniter packs or wadding. Possibly because they are easily stolen (via pants).

At one time, there were 4 packs of 18mm motors. In response to a competitor who appeared on the market. That did not last a long time.

hcmbanjo said:

Well, they used to. A few years back, Estes would include four igniters with a 18mm three engine pack.
The igniters weren't as reliable as they are now.

Since I got back into the hobby, now only three igniters are included with 18mm three engines.
They do include four plugs in the three engine pack.
I have lots of extra plugs sitting around.

13mm four engine packs have four igniters and four plugs.

Click to expand...

dont know if you remember but estes also had the great idea of making the 28 mm motor mounts on their G powered X wing fighter and the other rockets in that series No. Coast Rocketry no 29 mm would fit then they quit suppling F motors :no:

shreadvector said:

At one time, there were 4 packs of 18mm motors. In response to a competitor who appeared on the market. That did not last a long time.

Click to expand...

Who was the competitor? I remember the 4 packs of B6-4's, but I don't remember any competitors selling 4 packs of motors.

shreadvector said:

I was going to guess that that was a photo of a prototype packaging. Possibly with inert motor in it for a trade show. I looked again and it is definitely from a past trade show because it has the old error of identifying the E30 as a W motor when the E30 is a T (Blue Thunder). Bogus photo of prototype, not actual retail product.

Can you state if anywhere on the outside of your actual, real product package it states that igniters are not included and need to be purchased seperately? Or inside in the instructions? This information will be very helpful to the folks at Estes and to future consumers.

Click to expand...

None of the four motors I saw had any indication that there was an igniter included, which is why I assumed that it was intended that these motors don't have igniters included, since they, in fact, did not have igniters included. Therefore, I saw no reason to contact Estes before making my original post, as they had not made any mistake, other than maybe the marketing mistake of not intending to include igniters with the motors in a complete reversal of fifty+ years of previous model rocket motor marketing.

At that point, it seems that speculation is allowed. And in fact, my original post was to express surprise that the speculation had not already started.

And the subject line was just stating a simple fact. You like facts, don't you?

RoyAtl said:

None of the four motors I saw had any indication that there was an igniter included, which is why I assumed that it was intended that these motors don't have igniters included, since they, in fact, did not have igniters included. Therefore, I saw no reason to contact Estes before making my original post, as they had not made any mistake, other than maybe the marketing mistake of not intending to include igniters with the motors in a complete reversal of fifty+ years of previous model rocket motor marketing.

At that point, it seems that speculation is allowed. And in fact, my original post was to express surprise that the speculation had not already started.

And the subject line was just stating a simple fact. You like facts, don't you?

Click to expand...

...one more time, our reason for not including an igniter "at this time" is strickly a regulatory issue...it wasn't an oversite...it isn't a marketing mistake...it is purely a choice that we had to make to be compliant and in order to ship engines now...which were already way behind schedule. I saw where someone suggested you just "stick and igniter in the bag with the motor"...try getting that by DOT! it is not an easy thing to be in the business we are these days, but we are doing what we can to get product to market and we will adjust the PSII igniter/motor issue if and when we can.
Mike

scsager said:

In my March 1st post (#19 in this thread)

The new Estes motors do NOT come with igniters. The packages I have say nothing about igniters.

The new 2012 catalog says nothing about the motors coming with igniters. The catalog does mention "engines" come with igniters and plugs. The pro series items are labeled "Motors".

also - (interesting factoid) The igniters are NOT available for purchase on the Estes web site.

Click to expand...

Thank you. YOU have answered the implied question in my original post. So yes, people HAD mentioned that there were no igniters in the Pro Series II motors.

n3tjm said:

Who was the competitor? I remember the 4 packs of B6-4's, but I don't remember any competitors selling 4 packs of motors.

Click to expand...

I think it was MRC. The MRC motors were 3 packs (and later they even had 2 packs with silly plastic stick-on/pop-off nozzles that acte like igniter retainers). Estes selling 4 packs presented the consumer with a much better "buy" than the new competitors product.

Back to the subject at hand: Estes really should put a sticker on the motor packs to alert the consumer that ingiter is not included and must be purchased seperately and that it is not the igniter they use in the other Estes motors.

Happy, non-surprised customers are better than "surprised" customers who cannot ignite the motors they bought.

be69ar said:

...one more time, our reason for not including an igniter "at this time" is strickly a regulatory issue...it wasn't an oversite...it isn't a marketing mistake...it is purely a choice that we had to make to be compliant and in order to ship engines now...which were already way behind schedule. I saw where someone suggested you just "stick and igniter in the bag with the motor"...try getting that by DOT! it is not an easy thing to be in the business we are these days, but we are doing what we can to get product to market and we will adjust the PSII igniter/motor issue if and when we can.
Mike

Click to expand...

Then...

How does Aerotech do it?

shreadvector said:

At one time, there were 4 packs of 18mm motors. In response to a competitor who appeared on the market. That did not last a long time.

Click to expand...

I believe the four-pack of Estes motors (18mm) happened as a response when Quest was announced.

This happened during the 'Tunick' years.

be69ar said:

...one more time, our reason for not including an igniter "at this time" is strickly a regulatory issue...it wasn't an oversite...it isn't a marketing mistake...it is purely a choice that we had to make to be compliant and in order to ship engines now...which were already way behind schedule. I saw where someone suggested you just "stick and igniter in the bag with the motor"...try getting that by DOT! it is not an easy thing to be in the business we are these days, but we are doing what we can to get product to market and we will adjust the PSII igniter/motor issue if and when we can.
Mike

Click to expand...

Thanks Mike.

shreadvector said:

Whatever you do, make sure you don't contact Estes directly to ask about the igniters and if that was a mistake in packaging.

Just post threads that claim that the omission is intentional in the subject line.

Click to expand...

Are you kidding? Why would you NOT contact Estes, or any other manufacturer for that matter with questions about their product. I would not hesitate to contact any manufacturer with product quality conscerns.

I just sent estes an email about an F50 motor failure(casing failed at ignition).

jimzcatz said:

Originally Posted by shreadvector
Whatever you do, make sure you don't contact Estes directly to ask about the igniters and if that was a mistake in packaging.

Just post threads that claim that the omission is intentional in the subject line.

Click to expand...

Are you kidding? Why would you NOT contact Estes, or any other manufacturer for that matter with questions about their product. I would not hesitate to contact any manufacturer with product quality conscerns.

Click to expand...

Shred was speaking sarcastically.

But as it turned out, the omission was intentional, as I assumed.

Who cares if they include igniters. I make my own.

Andrew

I too think this is messed up to not include an igniter with their motors.

TA

Some Aerotech reloads do not come with igniters,the J-540 for instance.

I just made the trek to the back of the Hobby Lobby and there they were, 2 packs of F's and on the peg over there were 2 packs of igniters (No kits yet or G-80s). Without a huge red warning label "NO IGNITERS INCLUDED" I doubt I could have put 2 plus 2 together and figured it out - so confused I need lots of consumer protection and regulations to keep me safe because that 2+2 stuff is real hard math.

Someday I will have the big money required to buy one of those single use bad boys with my 40% off coupon, along with the separately sold igniter packs, but that will require 2 trips to the Lobby since you can only use one coupon per day. Someday I will build a rocket light and aerodynamic enough to use those long delays. But what I am really worried about is that all those BARs will come in and buy up all those igniter packs because of all those copperhead failures, leaving all those newbies open to temper tantrums and meltdowns when they bring the rocket to the pad without an igniter! Thus we need another regulation and really big warning sign to ban igniter pack only sales to BARs who have burned up all their copperheads. No, maybe that is too complicated, so I guess I will just go back to the ease of my greasy, messy and cheap reloads where I can take out the Xacto knife and hack the delay down to custom fit my flight requirements. 2+2=5 There, now I have the confidence to fly that kit bash using a copperhead on our crummy launch system!

I went to the local hobby shop yesterday and they had a pretty wild selection of the new Estes Pro motors and I did notice that they weren't included. I mentioned to the shop owner that he needed to order some First Fire Jr's to sell with them.

Mike, Estes really needs to push something out through the distributors to advise dealers of the fact that they aren't included so that they can order and stock either your sonic's of the First Fire Jr's. I have a feeling that many small shops are in the same position as the one that I deal with in that they assume they would be included due to the history of Estes placing them in packs.

Disaster_Guy said:

I went to the local hobby shop yesterday and they had a pretty wild selection of the new Estes Pro motors and I did notice that they weren't included. I mentioned to the shop owner that he needed to order some First Fire Jr's to sell with them.

Mike, Estes really needs to push something out through the distributors to advise dealers of the fact that they aren't included so that they can order and stock either your sonic's of the First Fire Jr's. I have a feeling that many small shops are in the same position as the one that I deal with in that they assume they would be included due to the history of Estes placing them in packs.

Click to expand...

...we've advised distributors of the motors without igniters previously. I will try again to advise them about why they need to carry igniters separately.
Mike

be69ar said:

...we've advised distributors of the motors without igniters previously. I will try again to advise them about why they need to carry igniters separately.
Mike

Click to expand...

My local hobby shop was on top of that already. It's not like a quick inspection of the package wouldn't reveal the need to purchase an igniter either.

Nice birds, by the way. I'm liking at least three of the four.

be69ar said:

...we've advised distributors of the motors without igniters previously. I will try again to advise them about why they need to carry igniters separately.
Mike

Click to expand...

Alerting the distributors is nice, but you MUST alert the retailers and customers. The only way to do this with 100% success is to make sure that the packages CLEARLY proclaim that igniters are not included and must be purchased seperately. Use a sticker or a notice in a "burst" or whatever you call those pointy shaped things that usually say "NEW" inside them.

Customers are used to picking your brand of motors off the peg or ordering them online and when they open the package on the launch site they have the motor and igniter. Not having an igniter at the launch site will result in an irate consumer (they wasted ga$oline, and their time off work and may have disappointed or crying children).

Igniters Not Included
Allumeur Pas Inclus
Ignición no está incluido

I've been visiting three of the major hobby shops in San Diego about once every 1-2 weeks to check on new Estes products. Only one of them carries the Pro Series II products. This store even carries the 29mm motor retainer rings.

This store has had two of each of the Pro Series II kits since March and all are still hanging on the wall.

I have never seen any of the Pro Series II motors and decided to ask about them. I recognized the shop owner and asked about the motors. He said they were in-stock and proceeded to pick up a box on the floor behind the cash register counter. Inside were Pro Series E, F & G motors along with some AeroTech motors. It was my first opportunity to actually view the Pro Series motors.

I decided to support my local hobby shop and picked out a Pro Series G80-7T motor to purchase. I asked the owner if he had any of the Sonic Igniters also. He looked around and said he was sold out. I mentioned that he needed to keep them in stock as the motors do not come with igniters. He picked up the G80 I was going to purchase and looked it over along with the facer card.

He then said, "I guess that's why I sold seven packs of igniters last week".

He added that he will order more Sonic Igniters and have them in-stock next week.

Estes needs to label the motor packages to inform customers that igniters are not included and take action to inform hobby shops of this situation.

Picture a living room with several Estes execs and a multitude of frowning BARs and a single bespectacled mediator wearing a sweater-vest.

Wow . . . OK . . so welcome guys from Estes . . . We just want to say up front that this is not an attack . . .it is an intervention. . . . We are all here today because we love you. . . you KNOW that . . . but this sort of self-destructive behavior . . . well, you just need to know that you're not just hurting yourself anymore . . . .



BTW, not including an Estes SonicII may not be that big a loss - see my other thread
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?36440-Estes-Sonic-Igniter-Pro-Series-II-Igniters-suck!

rbeard2 said:

BTW, not including an Estes SonicII may not be that big a loss - see my other thread
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?36440-Estes-Sonic-Igniter-Pro-Series-II-Igniters-suck!

Click to expand...

I've read the thread.

I've had 100% success with the Estes Sonic Igniters. :wink:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?30817-Estes-Sonic-Igniters&highlight=sonic+igniters

Estes dropped the ball big time on this. Not even labeling the package for the motors that igniters are not included? Wow. It's like they don't even know who their customers are.

The whole Pro Series is being set up as a major flop. Too bad, it was a good thing for the hobby.

By the way, the whole "regulatory issue" nonsense is just that - Aerotech has never had a problem including igniters with their exact same motors. This is just more passing the buck...

Guys, Mike from Estes is on record as saying they encountered regulatory hurdles which made them take the route they did.

He didn't say it was impossible to do, but we need to accept his statement that they couldn't do it in the timeframe needed without fail. I have no idea what the specific paperwork issues are, but remember Estes sells most of its product via mass market and things like timeliness matter a lot in releasing a product line. The bottom line is they got rockets, motors, and igniters onto the shelves in early spring which I expect was a critical date for launching the product and meeting store shelf reset dates. Hooray for them. If six months prior there was a risk that if they pushed for including ignitors with the motors they might have been delayed by several months, then they made the right choice.

Anyone who hasn't launched a product and dealt with regulatory agencies and distributors has no idea of the level of crap that goes on and the hard choices that sometimes need to be made.

So, yes, Estes please include igniters with your engines when you can. In the meantime congratulations on your product launch and good luck with the new product line.

Marc

PS: I have only used one pack of Sonics so far but every motor lit.

I suppose the main complaint is that they didn't clearly liable the package. Its fair to assume (yes that is dangerous) that ignite rs are included since all other brands do so, even AT who's motors these are, and Estes has always included ignite rs with their motor products. Clear labeling would have solved this issue IMO.

We just had our first launch after the burn bans were lifted, and it was the first launch since the new Estes motors were available. One new person was there with a garage sale rocket flying on an Estes motor and was unaware there was no igniter supplied. He did have several copperheads that came along with the rocket that eventually lit the motor. So far we are 1 for 1 on new flier igniter not supplied unawareness.