GO Coronavirus measures by Tripoli - Return to Flight

ThreeJsDad said:

I keep reading stuff like this and I was in hard agreement..Until

Last Saturday I was at Hobby Lobby with my daughter and there were Seniors everywhere, no gloves, no masks, no hasmat suits. They were out shopping in a busy store and none of them were keeping the 6' rule. It seems the only ones who care about keeping the vulnerable healthy is the rest of us.

I started to go off the deep end as i am very frustrated....

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I hear you. The only thing I can say is that it'll be different once you start getting significant numbers of cases in your area, at least if Western WA is any guide. Latest numbers I saw are that NC has ~80 cases and no deaths. It shouldn't have to be this way, but once coronavirus wipes out a third of the residents of an assisted living center (see: Lifecare Kirkland), people will start taking it seriously. Seattle is a weird ghost town right now.

ThreeJsDad said:

I keep reading stuff like this and I was in hard agreement..Until

Last Saturday I was at Hobby Lobby with my daughter and there were Seniors everywhere, no gloves, no masks, no hasmat suits. They were out shopping in a busy store and none of them were keeping the 6' rule. It seems the only ones who care about keeping the vulnerable healthy is the rest of us.

I started to go off the deep end as i am very frustrated....

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I think some older folks are having trouble processing how they should be changing their behaviors right now, and a few don’t actually believe in the risks. Some of us are going to have to parent our parents to some degree. I’ve been talking to mine much more frequently lately, and they are doing a good job adapting their routines, even though it’s not easy for them. They normally have a lot of social activities.

What you saw at Hobby Lobby was an example of not taking things seriously. If people won’t follow recommendations, authorities will most likely impose mandatory restrictions. You can’t go to Hobby Lobby here — it’s closed along with all other non-essential businesses as part of the shelter in place order. I would not be surprised to see a nationwide shelter in place order.

boatgeek said:

I hear you. The only thing I can say is that it'll be different once you start getting significant numbers of cases in your area, at least if Western WA is any guide. Latest numbers I saw are that NC has ~80 cases and no deaths. It shouldn't have to be this way, but once coronavirus wipes out a third of the residents of an assisted living center (see: Lifecare Kirkland), people will start taking it seriously. Seattle is a weird ghost town right now.

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Thanks for understanding because I have been afraid I was going to come off as a selfish A-Hole. I try very hard not to be that way and when I see my daughter's senior year of HS going down the tubes to protect a group of people who wont protect themselves I get frazzled because I am such a logical person. I simply can't make sense of the stuff I see, things need to balance in my head.

I started to put a thread in the watering hole about how none of this makes sense but I am glad we can simply discuss it here. I struggle when things don't make sense, when I cannot see the logic.

aerostadt said:

This will not last forever.

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It will just seem like it.

Ez2cDave said:

People, congregating anywhere, makes no sense . . . Hoarding toilet paper makes no sense, either.

Dave F.

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I totally agree. The hoarding thing is an irrational choice that some people have made on their own, and they shouldn’t be doing that. But they aren’t doing it based on government recommendations or media reports.Everything I hear in the media and from the governments says don’t do it.

The thing I was referring to with the 50 kids in day care sounds to me like it is different because it sounds like an official policy that says it’s ok. That’s stupid.

H_Rocket said:

It will just seem like it.

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It might be a while. I’m afraid we’re just at the beginning.

ThirstyBarbarian said:

I think some older folks are having trouble processing how they should be changing their behaviors right now, and a few don’t actually believe in the risks. Some of us are going to have to parent our parents to some degree. I’ve been talking to mine much more frequently lately, and they are doing a good job adapting their routines, even though it’s not easy for them. They normally have a lot of social activities.

What you saw at Hobby Lobby was an example of not taking things seriously. If people won’t follow recommendations, authorities will most likely impose mandatory restrictions. You can’t go to Hobby Lobby here — it’s closed along with all other non-essential businesses as part of the shelter in place order. I would not be surprised to see a nationwide shelter in place order.

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You are probably correct, there will be those older folks who will have a lot of trouble accepting just how dangerous this is for them. Today a fella told me about his mother-in-law who is 82 getting on a plane to attend a family function she did not want to miss. My thought was, She is NUTS and my second thought was me trying to make sense of the extreme measures everyone is taking to keep her healthy and she gets on a plane.

ThirstyBarbarian said:

I think some older folks are having trouble processing how they should be changing their behaviors right now, and a few don’t actually believe in the risks. Some of us are going to have to parent our parents to some degree. ...

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ThreeJsDad said:

You are probably correct, there will be those older folks who will have a lot of trouble accepting just how dangerous this is for them. Today a fella told me about his mother-in-law who is 82 getting on a plane to attend a family function she did not want to miss. My thought was, She is NUTS and my second thought was me trying to make sense of the extreme measures everyone is taking to keep her healthy and she gets on a plane.

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My dad just accepted a contract gig (he's a retired federal employee) ... in Bangkok ... starting in early May. [bangs head on desk] My brother was talking a little while ago how hard it is when you have to start parenting your parent.

ThreeJsDad said:

You are probably correct, there will be those older folks who will have a lot of trouble accepting just how dangerous this is for them. Today a fella told me about his mother-in-law who is 82 getting on a plane to attend a family function she did not want to miss. My thought was, She is NUTS and my second thought was me trying to make sense of the extreme measures everyone is taking to keep her healthy and she gets on a plane.

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It is frustrating. But let’s still make the sacrifice for the sake of elderly folks like my parents and aunts and uncles who are taking it seriously and making their own sacrifices. They are holding up their end of the deal.

ThreeJsDad said:

Thanks for understanding because I have been afraid I was going to come off as a selfish A-Hole. I try very hard not to be that way and when I see my daughter's senior year of HS going down the tubes to protect a group of people who wont protect themselves I get frazzled because I am such a logical person. I simply can't make sense of the stuff I see, things need to balance in my head.

I started to put a thread in the watering hole about how none of this makes sense but I am glad we can simply discuss it here. I struggle when things don't make sense, when I cannot see the logic.

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Although the seniors are the most “at risk” (6% mortality for some age groups), that’s if people get treatment. The most urgent risk is probably to our medical infrastructure, which could quickly translate to even higher mortality rates and a need to make literal life vs. death decisions for people of all ages.

boatgeek said:

My dad just accepted a contract gig (he's a retired federal employee) ... in Bangkok ... starting in early May. [bangs head on desk] My brother was talking a little while ago how hard it is when you have to start parenting your parent.

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Yep. It’s hard for everyone.

ThirstyBarbarian said:

It is frustrating. But let’s still make the sacrifice for the sake of elderly folks like my parents and aunts and uncles who are taking it seriously and making their own sacrifices. They are holding up their end of the deal.

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I agree, I have a buddy who's wife is not super healthy so when he has to go somewhere he dons the nitrile gloves so he reduces the risk of taking anything home with him.

Steve Shannon said:

Although the seniors are the most “at risk” (6% mortality for some age groups), that’s if people get treatment. The most urgent risk is probably to our medical infrastructure, which could quickly translate to even higher mortality rates and a need to make literal life vs. death decisions for people of all ages.

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I was talking with a friend the other day and the scenario came up, what if you go to the ER with a broken leg. How long does a person sit in pain because the hospital is so overwhelmed. Not the facilities fault at all, they are simply overwhelmed.

I called my DR office yesterday because I missed an appt for labs last week. They told me to stay away if I was healthy. They also confided in me they are getting over run with calls from people who are convince they have the virus. We are in the beginning of allergy season here in NC and people cannot tell the difference..... I would hate to work in a Primary care office right now.

ThreeJsDad said:

I was talking with a friend the other day and the scenario came up, what if you go to the ER with a broken leg. How long does a person sit in pain because the hospital is so overwhelmed. Not the facilities fault at all, they are simply overwhelmed.

I called my DR office yesterday because I missed an appt for labs last week. They told me to stay away if I was healthy. They also confided in me they are getting over run with calls from people who are convince they have the virus. We are in the beginning of allergy season here in NC and people cannot tell the difference..... I would hate to work in a Primary care office right now.

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A friend of mine is a Primary Care internist. His wife has an autoimmune disease that causes pain. Her therapy is an immunomodulating drug that results in a less active immune system. They made the active decision to suffer the pain but boost her immune system by discontinuing her treatment.
His clinic is juggling patients to make sure possible coronavirus patients don’t cross other patients and then the clinic is disinfected before other patients are allowed back in.

I support this measure to protect our members and the public. Any unneeded travel and gatherings are bordering on reckless. TRA made the right choice.

Generally, when you consult a professional (doctor, lawyer, cabinet maker, plumber, whatever) for advice, then ignore that advice because you think your contrary opinion is better...you're not thinking critically.

If you consult two professionals, both who say the same thing about your situation, then ignore both and go your own way...you're a fool.

TRA consulted three professionals---two doctors and a lawyer--- all of whom (presumably) said the same thing. Thank goodness Steve Shannon and the rest of the BoD are not fools. They did the right thing. The NAR/TRA safety codes are all about managing risks. Canceling launches because of the coronavirus is good risk management. In two weeks, they'll review the situation and decide whether to extend the action.

Best -- Terry

Thanks, both of you.

Rocketjunkie said:

Over reaction. Leave it up to the local club who can better determine the conditions locally much closer to the launch. However, since our next launch is NAR...

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ThreeJsDad said:

I think this is a bit over the top. I am trying to understand but at the same time I read that UV kills this bug and being out in the fresh air seems like a good idea.

I still went to work today out in the public...

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aerostadt said:

This will not last forever.

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Correct.. This is quite short term, no matter how long it takes.. When it's over it'll seem shorter then it did when behind it looking forward to it..

I posted this in FB..

I'm not a doomsayer in the least.. If Tripoli allows gatherings after there were warnings about their risks Tripoli does have some liability to bear. If the worst happens we will each have a more and more difficult time forgiving ourselves for not acting when we we're told of the risks according to how close we are to the person who fell ill.. We will have an even more difficult time forgiving ourselves if we took the known risk is for business reasons.. If you want to treat this lightheartedly ask someone who has a loved one who's ill if we should.. In the next 30 days we will find out how far this has gone before we started testing. Until then, as in everything in life, you must weigh risk and reward.. What is being risked here far outweighs the reward of a few meetings or launches..

Teddy

Very well said! Thanks Teddy. Greg

Steve Shannon said:

A friend of mine is a Primary Care internist. His wife has an autoimmune disease that causes pain. Her therapy is an immunomodulating drug that results in a less active immune system. They made the active decision to suffer the pain but boost her immune system by discontinuing her treatment.
His clinic is juggling patients to make sure possible coronavirus patients don’t cross other patients and then the clinic is disinfected before other patients are allowed back in.

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My wife is also in the same boat, different reason, but same immune system. My Son runs the sterilization department at one of the largest hospitals here in MN. People are making it worse, for example, I drive a truck coast to coast . Anyway, yesterday I could not get coffee at a store, roped off, lady ran to get in front of me so that I could not get into the coffee, she had been out in the "public area" handling items and the counter. She said that she would "make my coffee for me". I refused. "But" she said, "I have gloves on". I told her that she had just been handling items and counters that could have been infected, had not changed her gloves, and I did not want her handling my drink. Plastic gloves will not kill the virus, they WILL transmit it. And not only that, she was not wearing any kind of mask and was breathing all over every ones drinks. I am sure that she was unaware and was trying her best, but she could have infected every one that came in and she helped. So the last thing I want it for me to bring it home to my wife!

prfesser said:

Canceling launches because of the coronavirus is good risk management. In two weeks, they'll review the situation and decide whether to extend the action.

Best -- Terry

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Frankly, I can see this situation EASILY extending into Summer and, perhaps, beyond.

Dave F.

So, when are the Vendors going to start their "Viral Sale Specials", since their income will be sharply curtailed until flying, eventually, resumes ?

Dave F.

Ez2cDave said:

So, when are the Vendors going to start their "Viral Sale Specials", since their income will be sharply curtailed until flying, eventually, resumes ?

Dave F.

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No, Dave, I don’t want my vendors to have to sell their inventory at lower prices in order to avoid foreclosure. I’ve been advocating for people to do things at full price, and immediately so vendors get full use of some money to tide them over. For me that means now’s a good time to renew a subscription to the Wildman Club, buy a gift certificate from Chris’s Rocketry, renew the license on RockSim that I’ve been putting off, etc. Keeping our vendors solvent is more important to me than saving money on a motor.

Ez2cDave said:

So, Steve . . .

Here is a question for BOTH Tripoli & NAR . . .

Will Members be "credited" for their Membership Dues, during the time the "shutdown" exists, since you have, effectively, shut down the very activities for which the Memberships were obtained ?

Dave F.

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I really hope not. I also pay annual flight fees to our local club. There are no refunds for launches canceled because of bad weather or now, global pandemics. Nobody wants to cancel a launch and any refund plan would probably do more harm to TRA & NAR than it would help an individual.

Steve Shannon said:

No, Dave, I don’t want my vendors to have to sell their inventory at lower prices in order to avoid foreclosure. I’ve been advocating for people to do things at full price, and immediately so vendors get full use of some money to tide them over. For me that means now’s a good time to renew a subscription to the Wildman Club, buy a gift certificate from Chris’s Rocketry, renew the license on RockSim that I’ve been putting off, etc. Keeping our vendors solvent is more important to me than saving money on a motor.

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Steve,

You're forgetting that those Customers have also been having to shell out extra money, themselves, during this crisis . . .

"Bugging-In" isn't cheap and it looks like this could, easily, go on for several more months and it's going to get worse, before it gets better.

Dave F.

Ez2cDave said:

Steve,

You're forgetting that those Customers have also been having to shell out extra money, themselves, during this crisis . . .

"Bugging-In" isn't cheap and it looks like this could, easily, go on for several more months and it's going to get worse, before it gets better.

Dave F.

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Not forgetting at all. People who are financially threatened probably shouldn’t be buying rocket motors at all.

I really don't care if I get a NAR or Tripoli refund. Not worth the bother, honestly. Keep it.

Also, this decision at the moment is currently framed as Tripoli's decision, so maybe I could understand a refund if it was SOLELY their decision, but I'm currently on a state-wide shelter in place order, so the decision for me is effectively made by the state government even if Tripoli were allowing launches. I think this kind of order will soon be issued nationwide, so it will be completely out of the organization's hands. I think this is pretty much like a worldwide weather cancelation.

Steve Shannon said:

Not forgetting at all. People who are financially threatened probably shouldn’t be buying rocket motors at all.

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Steve,

If this continues very long and/or intensifies, the effects on Vendors will be much greater than the initial impact after "EZ-Access" was rescinded and we descended into the depths of the BATFE litigation. At least one could still fly, if they were willing to submit to the Draconian regulations of the "LEUP-era".

Dave F.

ThirstyBarbarian said:

I really don't care if I get a NAR or Tripoli refund. Not worth the bother, honestly. Keep it.

Also, this decision at the moment is currently framed as Tripoli's decision, so maybe I could understand a refund if it was SOLELY their decision, but I'm currently on a state-wide shelter in place order, so the decision for me is effectively made by the state government even if Tripoli were allowing launches. I think this kind of order will soon be issued nationwide, so it will be completely out of the organization's hands. I think this is pretty much like a worldwide weather cancelation.

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That’s a really good point and I agree. Only the stand down ordered by the Tripoli BoD in advance of mandatory compliance should be extended.

Steve Shannon said:

That’s a really good point and I agree. Only the stand down ordered by the Tripoli BoD in advance of mandatory compliance should be extended.

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Steve,

What is your definition of "mandatory compliance" ?

"Mandatory compliance" - Ordered by whom and to what extent ?

Dave F.