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Bat-mite said:
jlabrasca, too philosophical for me.
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<smile> Sorry. You will note that my name has an "s" in it. Just like Burt Bacharach...wait...

The point I was trying make, before we got to talking about how a transvestite truck hides its t******* was something about how inclusivity requires inclusive acts . Welcoming somebody means inviting them in, taking a step towards them.

If we want the hobby to continue and flourish in an increasingly diverse population then it is not enough for each of us or for any of us to just not-be-a-racist (or a sexist or a mysogynist an ableist or any other kind of bigot). We all (or at least, the most visible of us) must actively repudiate bigotry. Which means setting expectations for behavior beyond the safety code.

It might not take any more than a statement about the club like "We welcome all races, colors, creeds, nationalities, and identities to come fly with us." at the top of the landing page for the broken geocities web site to get things started.

cbrarick said:
I guess I'm just a grumpy old guy, but in my hobby why do I have to worry about being P.C.
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Because -- per the OP -- you depend upon AT and CTI to sell enough motors to stay in business and the customer base of "I personally am not a racist but I am not comfortable telling other people how to act" old white men is getting smaller every year?

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...rends-that-are-shaping-the-u-s-and-the-world/
FT_16.01.25_NextAmerica_1965_20651.png


dr wogz said:
I remember in my early punk days (Yes, Mowhawk, leather jacket, Doc Martins..) ....
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I am pretty sure the "skinhead" comment upthread was supposed to map to "violent racist"
 
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It's amazing how much has changed in 30 or so years.. my punk days go back to the late 80's early 90's.. I tossed my docs mid 90's and haven't' bought another pair..
 
jlabrasca said:
We all (or at least, the most visible of us) must actively repudiate bigotry
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Which is where a lot of us expected this discussion to go. There is no evidence that the makeup of the rocketry community is the cause of an (apparent) lack of diversity. I'm with you and agree completely on the welcoming attitude, which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with race or sex, as we have already established here. The problem with "actively repudiating bigotry" is that there is no consensus on what that means. We have been bombarded on a daily basis for years with labels of bigotry that simply aren't under any reasonable definition. I no longer trust that most people understand the difference between bigotry and simple disagreement, and there's plenty of evidence of labeling things bigotry that not only aren't but evince the bigotry of the person making the claim in the first place. "White privilege", "Toxic Masculinity", people wearing MAGA hats standing in a public place - there are tons of examples of this sort of thing.

"It might not take any more than a statement about the club like "We welcome all races, colors, creeds, nationalities, and identities to come fly with us.""

And then, when that doesn't work, there will have to be a committee for the improvement of diversity in the rocket community, and then when that doesn't work, something else...

I think we've established that there are real, tangible barriers to kids in the cities having access to launch sites and rocket launches and mentoring is a good idea for kids who don't know where to start. Let's start with those two, concrete steps before we assume that people from different backgrounds really are showing up to the launches, taking one look at the makeup of the group, and then leaving. There's no evidence of that.

(**For the record, I'm not *all* white either. I'm half hispanic, and my kids are Arabic**)
 
I'm not white, and barely middle-aged. I usually don't bring it up, because I don't think it matters.

I've never been treated differently at a launch, by a vendor, or a club because of the color of my skin. I like that.

I understand why the hobby is mostly older white guys. America was mostly white during the glory days of Apollo and the best days of Shuttle, and that's when people got inspired about rockets. Manned space hasn't been interesting for a while now, so there haven't been new entrants into the hobby. There's nothing wrong with that.

If Bezos and Musk succeed in making American manned spaceflight affordable and regular, today's teens will be inspired to build rockets. Thirty years from now we will be wondering why there are so many middle-aged Hispanics launching rockets. There's nothing wrong with that either.

I like the lack of diversity programming in rocketry. I don't want condescending praise because of my skin color, nor do I want to be condemned because of my gender. If some smarmy diversity consultant wanted to use me as a token in a photo shoot, I'd go find another hobby.

Judge me by the color of my propellant, not the color of my skin.
 
I want to clarify because people have made a lot of assumptions based on the prior thread. I was not advocating for diversity to just get diversity (huh). I was advocating for us to me more accepting of others that are different than we are. We should encourage others to join and that includes diversity. We should be less caustic toward others and encourage open debate as long as it does not become offensive and violate someone else's rights. Far too often, we chase off new members with our curmudgeonly behavior in which act as if they are bothering us.

I try to treat every one as an equal and I hope they do the same. We need to reach out to schools in all neighborhoods and not limit ourselves to one borough.

There is a big difference between encouraging diversity and legislating or ordering it (not political, just a fact). That is all I have to say.

Thanks for continuing the discussion in a civil manner. I would have kept the other going but it was too much to clean up.
 
cwbullet said:
I want to clarify because people have made a lot of assumptions based on the prior thread. I was not advocating for diversity to just get diversity (huh). I was advocating for us to me more accepting of others that are different than we are. We should encourage others to join and that includes diversity. We should be less caustic toward others and encourage open debate as long as it does not become offensive and violate someone else's rights. Far too often, we chase off new members with our curmudgeonly behavior in which act as if they are bothering us.
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"I was advocating for us to me more accepting of others that are different than we are." OK - maybe we are in violent agreement. I would just point out that advocating for us to be more accepting of others that are different implies that we are not accepting people because they look different. If you mean that we are chasing people away (at least from the forum) because we are responding to simple questions with curmudgeonly behavior, I completely agree. If you are suggesting that the root of the curmudgeonly behavior towards new people with basic questions is because of the way they look, then I disagree. If I over-reacted before, I apologize. In my experience, there is a strong correlation between people using the word "diversity" and a certain set of demands that are not far behind the observation that a group is "not diverse".

Again, I hope we are in violent agreement that more people in the hobby is good, that we should recruit everywhere and not look for people based on how they look, and that we should look at removing impediments for people who want to launch rockets but don't have access to launching them.
 
While I understand the intent of the propellant color quote, we must not be intolerant of certain propellants. While I am joking to an extent, there is history of propellantism I’m the past on this thread. Seems certain people really don’t like sparkies and skids and are ostracized as result.
 
I do not think ever said we would accept one group over another. I used the word encourage. I never said discourage the others.
 
grouch said:
While I understand the intent of the propellant color quote, we must not be intolerant of certain propellants. While I am joking to an extent, there is history of propellantism I’m the past on this thread. Seems certain people really don’t like sparkies and skids and are ostracized as result.
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Right on, Grouch. People with Rocket Privilege may not even know they are being exclusive!

Full disclosure: I am an old, liberal, White Lightning guy. However, I have lots of friends who fly Sparkies. Some of them even voted for Trump, but I don’t hold it against them! I try to be welcoming to the underrepresented 304 electoral voters of the country.

Now, imagine some Sparkies come to a Midwest launch and they see a Blue Thunder banner flying on a camper. Or, somebody wearing Loki Cocktail hat (You know, “those” people.) Personally, I find Blue Thunders to be abhorrent, but if they follow the rules, I am cool with that. How do we ensure the Sparkies don’t feel excluded in a dry corn field, where nobody launches rockets like they do? If we don’t openly welcome every propellant race with PC slogans, then our hobby will die!
 
Sparkie porn

https://imgur.com/rPchaK9

My Polar Viper (K&S Arctic Wolf - about 6 feet tall) going up on an H178 Dark Matter. How can you not love that shot? Makes me want to get a red hat with MASA printed on it - Make America Sparkie Again
 
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Not Quite Nominal said:
Judge me by the color of my propellant, not the color of my skin.
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Ha,,
That one's goin down in history,, lol...


Zeus-cat said:
Sparkie porn

https://imgur.com/rPchaK9

My Polar Viper (K&S Arctic Wolf - about 6 feet tall) going up on an H178 Dark Matter. How can you not love that shot? Makes me want to get a red hat with MASA printed on it - Make America Sparkie Again
Click to expand...

Ok Zeus,,
I'm sorry for the small hijack, but you started it,, lol..
I LOVE the H178DM, it's a smokin ( get it ) load, unbelievable for it's size..
You have to check out this series of pics..
2-- H178DM's air-starting on a "Europa Express" flight against a fairly dark, cloudy sky at the METRA field...

https://onebadhawk.com/metra-812015.html

Teddy
 
I build my motors all the same.

Sometimes I build them in French, sometimes English, and once i built in Spanish. They all seem to fly the same.. (although the French ones seem to want to separate from their LPR launch rack and declare themselves "La launch rail separez".. And the french ones take a little longer 'cuze they use more words to explain things.

The Spanish one had us all going for Tacos after..
 
dr wogz said:
They all seem to fly the same.. (although the French ones seem to want to separate from their LPR launch rack and declare themselves "La launch rail separez".. And the french ones take a little longer 'cuze they use more words to explain things.
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Funny, but these are the sort of posts we are discussing on this thread! In this regard it is the variable nature of people who make things difficult. Some French people would look at that and laugh, recognising that the quirk in their trait that culturally sets them apart is amusing. Others will take offense to the disparaging remark and take it as an insult. Sometimes people are a little too sensitive to comments like that, other times more justified in their reactions. It is a difficult world, more so for comedians who rely on using cultural matter as part of their act. Sometimes people need to be able to laugh at themselves, and unfortunately some are too serious to realise that. Sometimes a thicker skin would be of benefit.

Just pondering, do you think this has been exacerbated by the attitude at school that has been taught where everyone is a winner, even if you have come last? You know what I mean? Everyone gets a ribbon for participating, not just the three on the podium. We see students here that come out of high-school here and have no resilience. They fail a test and because they have been told they fail their world is about to end. Anxiety problems abound, and that is something I didn't see when I was at university.

Apologies the the French or anyone else I may have insulted in the above. ;)
 
OverTheTop said:
Funny, but these are the sort of posts we are discussing on this thread!.
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Nope. From the OP:

boatgeek said:
If you’re concerned about the long-term health of the hobby, it’s an awfully good idea to broaden the base beyond white guys.
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The question in the top post -- a follow-on to the MLK thread that got locked: How do we get get more people who aren't old white men into the hobby.

Some in the thread rejected the premise of the question, others made the usual complaining noises about "political correctness" and creeping progressivism, and at least one poster pretended not to know what the words "diversity" and "bigot" mean, but the thread was not about of overly-sensitive minorities who just can't take a joke.

edit: Unless you are pointing out that making a joke about Canadiens français is the kind of behavior that -- without context -- tends to make a person look like a xenophobe...well, yeah.

OverTheTop said:
Just pondering, do you think this has been exacerbated by the attitude at school that has been taught where everyone is a winner, even if you have come last? You know what I mean? Everyone gets a ribbon for participating, not just the three on the podium.
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Nope^2.

1) Kids are not (all) idiots. They (mostly) know that the bullsh*t participation trophies are bullsh*t.

2) Every good coach knows you praise the kid for the hustle, not for the win.
 
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jlabrasca said:
and at least one poster pretended not to know what the words "diversity" and "bigot" mean
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Nope, the poster asked for a definition so we had a common basis for discussion because a lot diversity advocates use those words differently depending on whatever definition is needed for a particular discussion. I think you know that, so I let the condescending comment slide.
 
jlabrasca said:
Nope. From the OP:
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Yep. Same bloke different haircut I think. Certain French people would be put off by a post like that. I blow my nose in your general direction.

jlabrasca said:
1) Kids are not (all) idiots. They (mostly) know that the bullsh*t participation trophies are bullsh*t.
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OK. So why are there more problems with students (talking in the post-high-school phase here) with with anxiety problems? Is it a perception problem? Are people more inclined voice it nowadays since there is more recognition of mental health issues? Something else? My wife has noticed it when teaching in the diploma and degree levels.

jlabrasca said:
2) Every good coach knows you praise the kid for the hustle, not for the win.
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Definitely.
 
OverTheTop said:
OK. So why are there more problems with students (talking in the post-high-school phase here) with with anxiety problems? Is it a perception problem? Are people more inclined voice it nowadays since there is more recognition of mental health issues? Something else? My wife has noticed it when teaching in the diploma and degree levels.
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No idea what is going on in the antipodes. Here in the boreal climes, at least in the US, educational policy is set by people who think that educating children is a bad idea that can only lead to a discontented, lazy rabble instead of a thrifty, working class. We raised a whole generation under a policy called "no child left behind" which involved a LOT of testing. It was an unmitigated disaster.

To be honest, I don't see a lot of anxiety around tests as much as I see resentment, and resistance to the idea that studying correlates to higher scores. And, or course, a deep suspicion of anything that gives off the faintest odor of mathematics.

Because they have been trained to take tests which will be used to assess their teachers, after zeroing on an exam my students are less likely to think their lives are over than they are to complain that the test was unfair because it didn't have exactly the same problems that were in the homework sets.
 
The reality is you will never eradicate bigotry and stupidity. Most are driven by lack of education. Rocketry tends to have more educated folks interested in science and math. Most do not care what color you are or your beliefs.
1) One of our goals is TO EDUCATE, bring in the younger members which helps grow the hobby. If we do not then numbers dwindle and prefects wither away. I spend as much time talking to prospective members in my trailer than I do prepping and flying. WHY? I like to give back to the hobby.
2) I found the rocketry community very similar to my racing brothers and sisters: Everyone helps everyone!
3) MDRA stays engaged with it's neighbors bordering the fields. We are very fortunate for that relationship but it takes hard work. If not for that, we would be looking for another field like others in the past few years.
4) We should have fun, laugh and ignore the ignorant folks. Someone becomes highly abrasive, then a few prefecture officers should discuss and dispense whatever they seem necessary as judgement. Once you arrive at the field, understand your attendance is a privilege, not a right. That's why clubs have rules.
Treat everyone the same, engage in conversation with your fellow members and keep that bucket of small rockets for the kids. THIS IS WHAT WE ARE!
 
Dave A said:
The reality is you will never eradicate bigotry and stupidity. Most are driven by lack of education. Rocketry tends to have more educated folks interested in science and math. Most do not care what color you are or your beliefs.
1) One of our goals is TO EDUCATE, bring in the younger members which helps grow the hobby. If we do not then numbers dwindle and prefects wither away. I spend as much time talking to prospective members in my trailer than I do prepping and flying. WHY? I like to give back to the hobby.
2) I found the rocketry community very similar to my racing brothers and sisters: Everyone helps everyone!
3) MDRA stays engaged with it's neighbors bordering the fields. We are very fortunate for that relationship but it takes hard work. If not for that, we would be looking for another field like others in the past few years.
4) We should have fun, laugh and ignore the ignorant folks. Someone becomes highly abrasive, then a few prefecture officers should discuss and dispense whatever they seem necessary as judgement. Once you arrive at the field, understand your attendance is a privilege, not a right. That's why clubs have rules.
Treat everyone the same, engage in conversation with your fellow members and keep that bucket of small rockets for the kids. THIS IS WHAT WE ARE!
Click to expand...

Very true. We have had to ask people to calm down or leave a couple times.
 
OverTheTop said:
Just pondering, do you think this has been exacerbated by the attitude at school that has been taught where everyone is a winner, even if you have come last? You know what I mean? Everyone gets a ribbon for participating, not just the three on the podium. We see students here that come out of high-school here and have no resilience. They fail a test and because they have been told they fail their world is about to end. Anxiety problems abound, and that is something I didn't see when I was at university.
Click to expand...

jlabrasca said:
1) Kids are not (all) idiots. They (mostly) know that the bullsh*t participation trophies are bullsh*t.
Click to expand...

I kind of blame the parents for the lack of resilience and the participation crap. There's a stereotype about parents who are worried about what preschool will help their kid get into Harvard. That's probably not too widespread, but the idea behind it is still there. A lot of parents push their kids really hard, whether it's year-round sports at age 5 or worrying over every test score. There's not a lot of time for kids to just be ... kids. Loss of unstructured play time (largely to sports and homework) is a pretty big deal IMO. I've seen parents complain that a 4th grade teacher doesn't assign enough homework and their kid isn't going to be prepared for middle school. No mention of letting a 4th grader be a 4th grader. The same parents also try to prevent their kids from ever failing, so kids are less likely to experience hardship and how to get through. I know I struggle with that sometimes.

Same kind of thing in participation trophies. Those are for the parents, not the kids. The only time I saw it done well was on an Ultimate team, where the coach gave two players discs for best exemplifying the spirit of the game, and gave the rest of the students paper plates with an "award" that recognized their strengths (best hustling, loudest sideline cheers, etc.). I think the kids really appreciated being told what they did well.

jlabrasca said:
Some in the thread rejected the premise of the question, others made the usual complaining noises about "political correctness" and creeping progressivism, and at least one poster pretended not to know what the words "diversity" and "bigot" mean, but the thread was not about of overly-sensitive minorities who just can't take a joke.
Click to expand...

I actually thought the question of what diversity etc. were was a pretty decent one. Those definitions have changed over time and sometimes it's hard to keep up. In Seattle, there's been so much talk of equity in the school district that nobody really knows what the word means. That makes it so people can flog equity for or against programs at will.
 
Diversity is more than just color, gender, age, race, etc. Far too often we choose friends with similar beliefs and do not challenge our own thoughts and beliefs.

One thing I love about rocketry is that there are a bunch of ways to build an av bay. I find a new one at each launch. I think it is important to challenge yourself with new ideas and thoughts.
 
Bat-mite said:
Which really supports my point, that there is no "one size fits all." My white wife doesn't like much of the music played at MDRA launches. . .
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+1
If I hear John Denver sing "Thank God I'm a Country Boy" at MDRA one more time I'm going to puke. They have been playing the same stuff for years, I think it's time for a MDRA music update.

For the record, I am:
60% Northern European
22% Irish
18% African
 
Last time I checked, NAR membership was at a record level. Either you're interested in the hobby or your not. Please give me examples where clubs or individuals have purposely discouraged a minority or a woman who was "gung ho " to build and fly model rockets.
 
Nathan said:
I am:
60% Northern European
22% Irish
18% African
Click to expand...

That is such a strangely specific breakdown for the "Irish" part, and so vague on the rest. What are the confidence intervals on those numbers? And what do they even mean?

How many generations back did the markers for "Irish" diverge from the markers for "Scot" from the markers for "Welsh". Does "Northern Europe" lump Sami in with Scandinavian in with Basque? How do you figure an Identical Common Ancestors date for a region populated by people who's arrivals in that region were separated by thousands of years?

And 18% African?. Somewhere in South Africa, right now, there is almost certainly a family of pink-skinned, light eyed, straight-haired people with a detectable and possibly unique genetic mutation that first occurred after one of their ancestors arrived in Cape Town from Europe or the British Isles. Does that count as "African DNA"?

In any event, I would argue strongly against using 23 and Me results to satisfy the quotas that no one is arguing should be imposed on rocketry club memberships. Its a funny idea, though. "See, we're not all old white men! Some of us are as much as 20% African, which closely resembles the fractional African American population in our region. Check that one off the list. Plus which, most of us have at least one X chromosome -- which means the club is actually almost half women. Done and done!"

edit: types...i men typos...i mean typos.
 
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BigRiJoe said:
Last time I checked, NAR membership was at a record level. Either you're interested in the hobby or your not. Please give me examples where clubs or individuals have purposely discouraged a minority or a woman who was "gung ho " to build and fly model rockets.
Click to expand...

Exactly...

Solution > Problem...
 
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