Inclusion

Bat-mite said:

Someone posted earlier that a he would not allow a skinhead to be a club member. This says to me, then, that there are acceptable forms of discrimination. If ANYONE is not allowed membership, then you have discriminated.

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Yes. This is Karl Popper's Paradox of Freedom. Toleration of the intolerant leads, ultimately, to intolerance.

Can you extend to those who profess hatred and exclusion as a matter of creed latitude of action in a space you want to be free for the use of all types and creeds?

Bat-mite said:

Suppose the majority of the members of a particular club are Christian, Muslim, and Orthodox Jewish. One day a transvestite shows up to launch rockets. The majority of the club membership complains to the board that they don't want their kids exposed to a transvestite. Does the club have the right to exclude the transvestite from membership?

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You are presuming that there are no religiously observant transvestites? Or that a religiously observant person would necessarily be offended by a woman wearing a man's trousers and work shirt to a launch? (as charmed as I am by the image of some of the guys with whom I fly tottering on stiletto heels as they head through the sage brush after a rocket, I think most of us prefer to dress in private)

Bat-mite said:

What if a confederate-flag-loving club bans the United States flag? Cool?

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It is a false equivalency, I think. The folks who fly the confederate flag as a political statement now do not, typically, align with the Confederacy against the Union. It is less often the flag of the "Lost Cause" than it is the flag of a nativist, or white nationalist who is likely to display the battle flag NEXT to the US flag.

Context matters. A Confederate flag is handy because -- however disingenuously -- it might be argued that it is NOT the same thing as a sonnenrad or a Kek. But it would be still be immediately discouraging and exclusionary for people of color (and religious minorities, and sexual minorities, and gender-nonconforming people, and political progressives, etc.) at an event attended by an all-white crowd.

Bat-mite said:

Be very careful when assuming that banning ANYONE or ANYTHING will not come back to bite you in the @$$. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and freedom of opinion are imperative for all, whether you agree with them or not.

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As said upthread, Freedom of Speech is not the same thing as consequence-free speech. We live at each others sufferance. We support each other's right to advocate for that which we might find abhorrent, but when we join together how do we distinguish the group from the individual?

You invite your coworker, who is something other than a straight, white, middle aged, man, to their first launch. As they pull into the parking area, they see a LOT of white men and a few white families. They spot the Confederate flag, or the bumper sticker about which georgegassaway commented (and it need not be on every car). How welcome would they feel?

The goal, as Steve Shannon and others have said, is to make everyone feel welcome at the event. Is it enough to say that you do not exclude or discriminate on the basis of anything (apart from unsafe behavior)? Might it not mean doing something deliberate so that the event does not appear unwelcoming?

Zeus-cat said:

How many transvestites do you see on a regular basis?

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Probably more than you realize? <smile>

Peartree said:

How far do we go to make others comfortable? It is an interesting question and one, I think, that plays more to each person's respect for how others might feel. I am a veteran. I'm proud that I served. I have hats and shirts that I wear (have worn) that make this clear. But I also have friends who are Mennonite or Quaker who believe strongly in non-violence and, as a matter of conscience, do not, and would not, serve. If conscripted, they would serve as a conscientious objector. So when I attend gatherings in their homes or at their churches, I am aware of their feelings. I don't wear my hats, or shirt, or even anything with a camo pattern. Not because there is anything at all wrong with what I have done, or how I feel, but simply out of respect for their feelings and opinions. In truth, most of them are pretty cool and I doubt very much that they would care, let alone say anything about it even if they did. But I recognize their opinion, and I choose to simply remove that from the equation as a matter of respect.

It really is less a matter of what we need to ask people to do, I think, than for us to simply be aware of how our actions show respect, or disrespect, for the opinions of others.

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Thank you, Peartree. That says it succinctly. The best that one small club can do is open its' doors to all. If those that apply are mostly (fill in the blank) then the club can't help that. Outreach, STEM, and Jr. programs from national organizations like the NAR and Tripoli will continue to change the demographic and get more diverse interest. But changing the socioeconomic conditions and the culture of this country will take more generations of legislators, politicians, educators, clergy, and parents advocating for tolerance, and guarding against intolerance.
We've come a long way compared to just 50 years ago. We haven't gotten there yet. Cheers.

DAllen said:

That was me.

So are you saying you'd allow typical skinhead behavior (racial slurs, Nazi propaganda, etc) around your club? Have fun trying to get new members to join.

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You are lumping all skinheads together as one class of skinhead, based off a stereotype. There are, in fact a few "lines" of being a skinhead, the most common being the "working class" skinhead, who don't really hold any political (or racist) beliefs. Just "do good work".. So, you never hear of them.. The 'Nazi' & 'Fascist' lines get the attention, and have created the stereotype we all know today.. And rightly so!

In the context of this thread, I'm pointing out that its easy to create a misunderstanding of a group, based of a small segment of that group. We've seen it with just about every group we don't know much about.. And have created a certain hatred towards them because of that misunderstanding or bad experience.

And, on that side of the coin, many groups / clubs will have that one person who thinks they are OK, great, 'the guy' etc.. but is really the one many mumble about under their breath..

this, ultimately, is the thought process that has to change, or at least to be made aware of..

jlabrasca, too philosophical for me. All I'm saying is that if you wantonly embrace banning someone, be prepared for the day when you are the one banned.

RocketFeller said:

Do you...

Ever get tired...

Of using so...

Many ellipsis...

Incorrectly?

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KidRocket is actually William Shatner.

Bat-mite said:

I don't get it. The song is about withstanding the British naval assault on Baltimore's Fort McHenry. How could that possibly be offensive to Canadians?

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at the time, Canada, was a British colony, and most of the "British" came from said colony.. And, the war it was about was between the north & south of this great continent, not necessarily an armada that exclusively sailed from England to pick the fight.... essentially, "we fought on their behalf.."

Thank you to everyone for keeping it civil. I'm pleasantly surprised that we're at 5 pages and not yet locked.

I think that the club is perfectly justified in ejecting people from launches who are not directly causing trouble for anyone but are displaying things that can be reasonably thought to be deeply offensive. A guy with a shaved head in a studded leather jacket launching rockets? Fine. Same guy flying a Nazi flag over his camp? Yeah, take that down or leave. No, I wouldn't ask someone wearing a MAGA hat or a "Meat is Murder" T-shirt or an ITMFA button to change. Yes, there's a lot of gray area and it could be a slippery slope, but I think clubs are mostly populated with reasonable people and won't eject someone unless it's pretty egregious.

I'm not a big fan of the Der Red Max decal set and I don't really understand why it's so popular, but I wouldn't stop anyone from trying to fly one. Likewise, I wouldn't toss the guy who brings a Jeep with a mounted .50-cal to our launch. If I were LD, I would probably ask if the ammo belted into it is replica or real and if real, what the safeties are. That might be a good way never to be asked to be LD again.

The place I'm most likely to see a drag queen is at the local library branch. They have a monthly Drag Queen Storytime which is extremely well-attended. Seattle's an odd place but I like it. I have interacted with a number of transgender people, and you wouldn't necessarily know to look at them.

Peartree said:

How far do we go to make others comfortable? It is an interesting question and one, I think, that plays more to each person's respect for how others might feel. I am a veteran. I'm proud that I served. I have hats and shirts that I wear (have worn) that make this clear. But I also have friends who are Mennonite or Quaker who believe strongly in non-violence and, as a matter of conscience, do not, and would not, serve. If conscripted, they would serve as a conscientious objector. So when I attend gatherings in their homes or at their churches, I am aware of their feelings. I don't wear my hats, or shirt, or even anything with a camo pattern. Not because there is anything at all wrong with what I have done, or how I feel, but simply out of respect for their feelings and opinions. In truth, most of them are pretty cool and I doubt very much that they would care, let alone say anything about it even if they did. But I recognize their opinion, and I choose to simply remove that from the equation as a matter of respect.

It really is less a matter of what we need to ask people to do, I think, than for us to simply be aware of how our actions show respect, or disrespect, for the opinions of others.

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+1..
Well said..
I couldn't agree more..
If you don't mind, I'd like to apply a different term to this that I am big on..
When I grew up "consideration of others" was a big thing..
Forgetting about it would get you a small loving smack on the back of the head,
hey, what are you doing / thinking..
If you do / say that how's that going to make the next guy feel..
Would you like it if someone did / said that to / about you ???

I just don't see "consideration of others anymore..
It was big when I was growing up..
It seems to be just about non existent these days..

Teddy

Well said, boatgeek.
As far as people of a different sexual nature than me, I became friends with a transgender person through rocketry. I met her first online and admired her rocketry knowledge and common sense well before I ever knew she was transgender and when I found out, absolutely nothing changed in our friendship.

Peartree said:

How far do we go to make others comfortable? ... I am aware of their feelings. I don't wear my hats, or shirt, or even anything with a camo pattern...I recognize their opinion, and I choose to simply remove that from the equation as a matter of respect.

It really is less a matter of what we need to ask people to do, I think, than for us to simply be aware of how our actions show respect, or disrespect, for the opinions of others.

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What about a place in which you are not aware of the political or philosophical positions of the other folks in attendance?

I've got a mess of things I don't wear to launches (in addition to the LBD). Early in my association with the club I sent a message through the mailing list, asking if anyone was planning to attend an event that I imagined would have near universal support from a group of people doing what I thought was recreational rocket science. The reaction -- not to say correction -- I received was swift and stunning.

Apart from the ones that don't have the names of bands that I saw back when they were still good, most of my t-shirts are from those kinds of events, or imprinted with slogans in support of those kinds of causes. They stay home when I go to the field (usually -- I am absent minded and sometimes dress in the dark).

boatgeek said:

I'm not a big fan of the Der Red Max decal set and I don't really understand why it's so popular, but I wouldn't stop anyone from trying to fly one.

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The military replica rockets, and the Hogan's Heroes nonsense-decoration on DRM, Der V3, Blue Bird Zero, etc. are a whole other thing. While I brought it up in the thread-that-shall-not-be-named, I am kind of split down the middle on the issue. OT1H, I am put-off by making models of weapons intended for mass murder. OT2H, some of the rockets they model are -- separate from their function -- beautiful machines.

Likewise DRM and Der V3 and every other rocket dressed in German military drag. It seems in poor taste, given the history of Peenemünde, to make "whacky German missiles". If I were to walk up to a launch, with no prior exposure to rocketry, and see a group of white guys congratulating another white guy on his meticulously detailed MDRM ("Wow, thats a really crisp print on the totenkopf decal!") I'd think twice before asking for a membership application. But I understand the appeal of those rockets to those who do have some prior connection to the hobby.

boatgeek said:

Likewise, I wouldn't toss the guy who brings a Jeep with a mounted .50-cal to our launch.

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Just checked. The club with which I fly actually has a firearms policy.

jlabrasca said:

What about a place in which you are not aware of the political or philosophical positions of the other folks in attendance?

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I doubt that I own anything that people in the general public would find to be offensive. I did once own a t-shirt that referred to SCUBA diving in the Virgin Islands that my wife found to be offensive (and it almost certainly was, but my 20-something self thought it was cool) so I got rid of it. On the other hand, if my Army shirts, or "My son is a US Marine" shirt, or various "churchy" shirts are found to be offensive, I'd really need to know why they think so. Certainly, nothing I own comes anywhere close to the things I see in public every day.

Peartree said:

I doubt that I own anything that people in the general public would find to be offensive...

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Yes. And I was pretty sure that T-shirt with a pro-science slogan would be uncontroversial at a rocket launch. I was wrong.

And I meant to ask if you give the same consideration to what you wear when you are in a position of representing your club, or might be seen as representing the hobby?

edit: context.

DAllen said:

KidRocket is actually William Shatner.

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I...

Am...

William...

Shatter...

jlabrasca said:

Yes. And I was pretty sure that T-shirt with a pro-science slogan would be uncontroversial at a rocket launch. I was wrong.

And I meant to ask if you give the same consideration to what you wear when you are in a position of representing your club, or might be seen as representing the hobby?

edit: context.

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I'm curious about your "pro-science t-shirt." If you feel the urge, I'd welcome a PM about it.

But, yes, I do generally try to consider what I wear and where I wear it, particularly if I am in a place where I seem to be representing rocketry, or my train club, and I am almost always conscious of the fact that people in public often know who I am, where I work, and what I represent even when I have no idea who they are.

jlabrasca said:

Just checked. The club with which I fly actually has a firearms policy.

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Yabbut, this was open carry! Just curious, what's the firearms policy?

Peartree said:

I doubt that I own anything that people in the general public would find to be offensive. I did once own a t-shirt that referred to SCUBA diving in the Virgin Islands that my wife found to be offensive (and it almost certainly was, but my 20-something self thought it was cool) so I got rid of it. On the other hand, if my Army shirts, or "My son is a US Marine" shirt, or various "churchy" shirts are found to be offensive, I'd really need to know why they think so. Certainly, nothing I own comes anywhere close to the things I see in public every day.

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There's whole markets in the developing world for T-shirts that people buy on Bourbon Street after a few too many Hurricanes, then realize are too offensive to wear. They donate them to Goodwill, who can't put them on the rack because they're too offensive. So they end up in places where people don't speak English so they don't know what's on their shirts. At least, those markets existed 20 years ago. Given what I see people wearing on the street, maybe they don't exist anymore.

KidRockET said:

I...

Am...

William...

Shatter...

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C'mon man, even Shatner got a few words together before the random pause. "I am William ... Shatner!"

I remember in my early punk days (Yes, Mowhawk, leather jacket, Doc Martins..) helping an old lady with her groceries. we helped her, she appreciated the thought, despite our looks.

A few nights later, while trying to collect on a delinquent newspaper payment, the old lady called the police on us. While the police initially gave us a hard time, our replies were justified: she was a few months behind, and we had proof of. She is never home, or rarely comes to the door. (but maybe this time, we were a little too 'aggressive' with the door bell.. but we knew she was home! we saw her go inside!!) The cops sorted it out, we got paid, and we were told to never visit her again. The next day we cancelled her paper due to her being a bad customer.

I remember a friend's brother thru a house party. We came in & broke it up & kicked everyone out. His older older brother told us that night, that he had a tonne of respect for us. Despite the heavy metal look & such, we respected his parent's house. Much more so, that the 'preppies' we just kicked out. We partied in the house, but never touched the booze, made a mess, or stole things. They did.

again, context of character..

DAllen said:

KidRocket is actually William Shatner.

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KidRockET said:

I...

Am...

William...

Shatter...

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It is all so much clearer now. Thank you.

Zeus-cat said:

Transvestites at a rocket launch? Really? How many transvestites do you see on a regular basis?

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Transgender is becoming a much bigger thing these days. You might be surprised one day.

Zeus-cat said:

Skinheads at a rocket launch? Fine, as long as they behave themselves. I think ANYONE forfeits their right to be at a launch as soon as they start to disparage anyone else.

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+1 definitely. Mutual respect is how this works.

If somebody is minding their own business and not bothering anyone then that's OK with me. Just because they have a bunch of tats doesn't make them a bad person. Skinheads? I personally abhor them, but if they keep quiet and don't go looking for trouble then they're entitled to their own personal beliefs, however twisted they may be. Once they go marching around with swastikas, it's a different story... the right to a peaceful assembly and free speech does not apply to public provocations. You do NOT have the right to go looking for trouble. If somebody showed up at one of our launches with a Nazi flag on the back of their pickup truck and wouldn't remove it, I think it would be legally (and morally) within our rights to ask them to leave, and it would also be legally permissible (and prudent) to call up the local Sheriff to have them removed if necessary.

If you're doing a scale V2, you probably wouldn't paint a swastika on it... the Germans didn't. All the ones that I've seen in pictures were painted with roll patterns and nothing else.

OverTheTop said:

Transgender is becoming a much bigger thing these days. You might be surprised one day.

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Just to be clear, transgender people and transvestites are not remotely the same.

And where I used to work was a man transitioning to a woman. I never talked to her as I had no reason to do so, but she seemed to get along with her coworkers from what I saw.

I also don’t have bumper stickers on my car. You never know who could be viewing your car at any given time so why provoke people?

Those guys that hang the...

Fake ball sacks from their truck...

Should be shunned everywhere...

KidRockET said:

Those guys that hang the...

Fake ball sacks from their truck...

Should be shunned everywhere...

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Better fake than real…

Just sayin’

Zeus-cat said:

Just to be clear, transgender people and transvestites are not remotely the same.

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Yes, I do know there is a difference. They can be one and the same, or totally disparate I think. Lots of what used to be called transvestites are now transgender because of medical technology advances. That puts them remarkably close sometimes IMHO.

Rockets, toy rockets.

So do we think that the horse is dead and we can stop beating it? Or did I just insult equine-Americans?

Horse is dead. We’ve multilated it so far. Five pages and amazing not a thread lock.

the horse actually died on page 2. We've been flagellating the corpse for some time now. I guess I'm just a grumpy old guy, but in my hobby why do I have to worry about being P.C. Fact is that we literally burn money. What are the demographics of people who can afford that? It's not the hobby's fault.

btw I've never owned nor will I ever own a V-2. It's a personal thing and those that know me and ask will know why. I'll still appreciate the craftsmanship of someone else's or how well it flys. I don't need to put my stuff on others, yet we're getting awfully close to that now...

HAVE FUN AND FLY A ROCKET!

Dynasoar Iron Cross MkII
The original 'Ugly Stick' RC airplane.

I'll just toss those two in for a last hurrah...