Fiberglassing Wood Fins for K Power

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dgreenapple

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Would like to hear opinions on the ability of wood fins to tolerate supersonic (750 mph) with fiberglass.

Details:

1. 5.5 Inch Airframe with 20" 54mm motor tube.

2. Fins are standard plywood.

- Individual fins vacuum bagged with 10 oz FG and West

- Attached to body tube using LOC Quik Loc method (see Warlock)

- Attached fins fiberglassed to body tube tip-to-tip with
one layer 10 oz glass and one layer 3 oz glass.

3. RockSim tells me with K1275, rocket goes 750 mph and 5,000 feet.

Would like to hear real-world experience with wood fins going supersonic.

THANKS!
 
Plywood Thinkness? I do not think 1/16" ply would survive!! (Tongue in cheek :D )

General Fin Dims?
-Root Chord?
-Tip Chord?
-Span?
-Sweep?
 
David,

You really need to know the fin dimensions and thickness of the ply to make a determination. On my L2 build I had to go with a carbon fiber and glass combo given the shape of the fins, thickness and near mach speed when loaded with a K motor.

I would suggest getting Finsim and going through the options yourself. You will learn a lot. It is well worth the $35 investment.

-Tim
 
Thanks for your ideas. Here's some answers:

Fin Thickness: .125" plywood (1/8")
Fin Thickness: .15" after fiberglass & epoxy
Root Edge: 10.75"
Leading Edge: 10.25"
Tip Chord: 3.75"
Trailing Edge" 2.125"
Semi Span: 5.25"
 
How many fins?

Originally posted by dgreenapple
Thanks for your ideas. Here's some answers:

Fin Thickness: .125" plywood (1/8")
Fin Thickness: .15" after fiberglass & epoxy
Root Edge: 10.75"
Leading Edge: 10.25"
Tip Chord: 3.75"
Trailing Edge" 2.125"
Semi Span: 5.25"
 
And actually, although I could do the math, I'd rather not...

What is the sweep length?, i.e., distance along the root edge from the forward point of the fin to the start of the tip chord.


Originally posted by dgreenapple
Thanks for your ideas. Here's some answers:

Fin Thickness: .125" plywood (1/8")
Fin Thickness: .15" after fiberglass & epoxy
Root Edge: 10.75"
Leading Edge: 10.25"
Tip Chord: 3.75"
Trailing Edge" 2.125"
Semi Span: 5.25"
 
With those fin specifications here are a few results from Finsim:

First off, you are in deep dodo with plywood only. You begin to have trouble at 379 mph with full flutter at 516 mph. In addition 1/8" G10 has trouble also beginning at 477 mph and flutter at 649 mph.

I use a couple of different materials to approximate fiberglass and carbon fiber layers respectively. A single layer of E-glass gets bumps you up to 456 mph from 379 mph. Adding a typical layer of CF gets divergence up 771 mph with full flutter at 1048 mph. Likely, your two layers of glass as implemented falls somewhere between there.

Your biggest problem though is likely the fin attachment scheme. The LOC Loc-n-Fin system is not much more than a butt joint. Regardless of fin material when using a butt joint attachment versus TTW a 1 degree angle of attack drops the top velocity in half. And only a 5 degree angle of attack drops your top velocity by 80% when using a butt joint. Of course the angle of attack will mostly be random and determined by wind gusts and thermals, but with the fin attachment design of Warlock-type, I would be very wary of near mach flight.
 
There's no problem going supersonic with plywood fins. It's been done many times. The problem with your fins is the lack of thickness. As mentioned above, your fins are simply not stiff enough and will experience fill flutter and fail well below the Vmax of your flight.

You need 1/4" Baltic birch fins for this size rocket. With this thickness you don't need to glass. It's strong enough and lighter. Check out Polecat Aerospace. https://www.polecataerospace.com/ All Andy's rocket use plywood fins.

Save youself a lot of work and grief. Don't use the Quick Loc fin method on transonic rockets. Use standard TTW techniques instead. You don't need to glass the airframe for strength. Standard fiberboard is strong enough, however if you want to harden your rocket for transportation purposes a layer of FG will prevent damage in transport.

Bob
 
AGREED.

Originally posted by bobkrech
There's no problem going supersonic with plywood fins. It's been done many times. The problem with your fins is the lack of thickness. As mentioned above, your fins are simply not stiff enough and will experience fill flutter and fail well below the Vmax of your flight.

You need 1/4" Baltic birch fins for this size rocket. With this thickness you don't need to glass. It's strong enough and lighter. Check out Polecat Aerospace. https://www.polecataerospace.com/ All Andy's rocket use plywood fins.

Save youself a lot of work and grief. Don't use the Quick Loc fin method on transonic rockets. Use standard TTW techniques instead. You don't need to glass the airframe for strength. Standard fiberboard is strong enough, however if you want to harden your rocket for transportation purposes a layer of FG will prevent damage in transport.

Bob
 
Thanks all, very much.

After considering building it with heavier, TTW fins to the motor tube, I'm going to go out on a risk curve and build it with the standard Loc-n-Fin Minnie Magg fins heavily carbon fibered and fiberglassed tip-to-tip.

When I launch it this summer with K1275, if it goes supersonic, I'll report back on succe3ss or failure. I will then try the Loki L1300 which will definitely send it to 750 mph and we'll see if they rip off.

Barry will be VERY HAPPY if they survive!
 
The 1/4" birch is great stuff, but if you already have the others, a few more layers of glass and maybe a layer of carbon can make them plenty strong. 1/8" ply can make a great core for some serious composite fins. The 1/4" birch may be easier, but don't think that you can't use what you've got as a base to build on.
 
David,

I have built a 4" rocket before and flew it on many motors. I used 3/16" ply, with one layer of carbon fiber over them and then a layer of 6oz fiberglass tip-to-tip. The fins are beveled and similar dimension to what you mention.

The fins are through the wall and glass to the MMT as well.

I have flown this rocket on AT K1100's through AWM 75/3500 loads, through mach 1. I will fly on a M soon.

I think the key is good reinforcement on the fins, tip-to-tip to make a nicely reinforced fin can. It is also good to glass the fins to the MMT for added strength.

I also have a minimum diameter 3" rocket made of FWFG with 1/8" think G10 fins, surfaced mounted to the body tube, and reinforce with a strip of carbon fiber on the fillet and tip-to-tip with 6oz fiberglass. This rocket flew at BALLS on an M to 23,500' and mach 1.5.

I believe the fillet reinforcement and tip-to-tip is the key, much more important than the actual fin material itself. There are so many people out there break mach using the core material of balsa and laminating with carbon fiber.

Check out https://groups.yahoo.com/group/CompositeRockets/ for these kinds of discussions.

-Rob Bazinet
 
Broke Mach with 1/8" balsa wood reinforced by cyanacrylate with 5 minute epoxy fillets. The complete rocket is more the issue than just the fin itself. Seeing where simulators diverge from reality is unfortunately found by failure. Do what you think will work, have a good theoretical basis for why you think it a go. My opinion anyway.

That's why it is rocket Science. Gotta experiment and get some null results sometimes. :)

Doug K
 
Has anyone tried lightening the substrate of these composite fins; that is for instance, cutting holes in a plywood fin before fiberglassing/carbon fibering? How about cutting holes and filling with a lighter material, like expanding foam or epoxy/microballoons? Can this kind of thing be done without severely compromising the structure to the types of loads it will be subjected to?
 
Originally posted by dknight
Broke Mach with 1/8" balsa wood reinforced by cyanacrylate with 5 minute epoxy fillets. The complete rocket is more the issue than just the fin itself. Seeing where simulators diverge from reality is unfortunately found by failure. Do what you think will work, have a good theoretical basis for why you think it a go. My opinion anyway.

That's why it is rocket Science. Gotta experiment and get some null results sometimes. :)

Doug K

With apologies to Defy Gravity (who makes this as a great button)

better_to_have_flown.jpg
 
Originally posted by RickVB
Has anyone tried lightening the substrate of these composite fins; that is for instance, cutting holes in a plywood fin before fiberglassing/carbon fibering? How about cutting holes and filling with a lighter material, like expanding foam or epoxy/microballoons? Can this kind of thing be done without severely compromising the structure to the types of loads it will be subjected to?

Rather than doing that, it is better to start with a core material (foam, endgrain balsa, etc) if you really want light weight. If done right, you can get a phenomenally stiff and light fin this way.
 
Originally posted by cjl
Rather than doing that, it is better to start with a core material (foam, endgrain balsa, etc) if you really want light weight. If done right, you can get a phenomenally stiff and light fin this way.

I agree with that on intuitive grounds, however if you have a kit that already has (very) large plywood fins, and wished to avoid starting over on them, the alternative is to lighten what you have. So again, has anyone tried this approach?
 
Rick,

For what it's worth I've been told that Robert DeHate has successfully used "skelletonized" fins filled with expanding foam and skinned with fiberglas. Maybe he could comment?
 
Most common fin materials are strong enough to withstand the static loads associated with hobby rocket flights up to M~2. What casues fins to fail are the unstable transient aerodynamic loads encounter in the transonic flight region at M>0.8. The cause of the failure in this region is a lack of stiffness which allows the fins to flutter to the extent where an inelastic failure occurs.

The standard fin flutter spreadsheet uses some simple relationship to estimate the "flutter velocity" of a fin. For a fin of a give size and dimension, the increase in the flutter velocity varies as the thickness to the 1.5 power and as the square root of the Shear Modulus.

Based on the model, for a fixed fin size and composition, the flutter velocity increases by the following factor if you were to start with a 1/16" thick fin.

Thickness factor
1/16" 1.00
3/32" 1.82
1/8" 2.83
3/16" 5.20
1/4" 8.00

At the extreme ends, increasing the thickness by a factor of 4 raised the flutter velocity by a factor of 8! Thickness is good.

The resistance of flutter is also a function of the fin material. It's really easy to predict what happens with a metal, but it becomes a bit more difficult to predict what happens to a composite. Based on the numbers in the fin flutter spreadsheet, the table below shows how the flutter velocity of identical fins change with materials.

Material Factor
Balsa 0.05 this value seems low
Balsa (end grain) 0.49
Plywood 1.00
Carbonfiber Sandwich 1.77 Specific CF/epoxy layup over endgrain balsa
G10 4.31
FR4 4.47 not a significant difference
7075-T6 Aluminum 6.20
6061-T6 Aluminum 9.93
Carbonfiber Composite 11.40 Commercial product

It's also not clear that the brittleness of materials is considered here. For example, a pane of window glass is very stiff, but if you try to bending it you will crack it after being bent very slightly.

Finally the density determines the relative weights of the materials. A strong material that is very stiff may be very heavy and a weaker but thicker material may be a lighter weigh solution. A table of densities is shown below.

The densities of common materials

Balsa: 0.1 - 0.2 g/cc
Foam: same as balsa
Plywood: 0.5 - 0.65 g/cc
Water: 1.00 g/cc
CF composite: 1.4 - 1.6 g/cc
FG composite: 1.6 - 1.8 g/cc

For example a plywood fin is about 1/3 the weight of a fiberglass fin of the same thickness, and the fiberglass fin has a 4.4x higher flutter velocity. If we triple the plywood fin thickness to obtain the same weigh as the fiberglass fin, the flutter velocity increases by 5.2x, so in this case the thicker plywood fin is actually better than the fiberglass fin on a weight basis.

On the other hand, a solid carbon fiber composite fin made from commercial plate is 11.4x stronger than plywood, and even 2.6x stronger than fiberglass composite. For equivalent strength it can have 40% less thickness than a fiberglass fin. It wins in every way, but it is by far the most expensive solution.

The strength of hand laidup sandwich composites can not be readily predicted by a simple model. It should be noted that the carbon fiber balsa sandwich in the fin flutter spreadsheet has only a 1.7X higher flutter velocity than a plywood fin of the same thickness. A 50% thicker plywood fin will have the same flutter velocity as the example. Which will be lighter. It will depend on your construction techniques. At a minimum, if more than 1/3 of the weight is CF composite, the the plywood fins is actually lighter for the same strength!

There are really no simple answers when you use sandwich materials unless you actually do some testing.

Bob
 
Wow! Bob -- that is an awesome reply. THANKS!

Question -- I am going to lay up the 1/4" plywood with Carbon Fiber. In the past, working with fiberglass, I simply epoxy it on and let it dry.

I have seen where people create fin supports and put sandbags on the layed-up fins during curing.

Do you believe adding the pressure of the sandbags makes a material difference in stength after curing? I'm confident it looks nicer, from seeing my results of vacuum bagging, but does it matter strength-wise?
 
No real difference in strength. The difference is in weight. As you draw out the epoxy through the breather and into the polyester batting you get rid of the excess epoxy (weight).

Originally posted by dgreenapple
Wow! Bob -- that is an awesome reply. THANKS!

Question -- I am going to lay up the 1/4" plywood with Carbon Fiber. In the past, working with fiberglass, I simply epoxy it on and let it dry.

I have seen where people create fin supports and put sandbags on the layed-up fins during curing.

Do you believe adding the pressure of the sandbags makes a material difference in stength after curing? I'm confident it looks nicer, from seeing my results of vacuum bagging, but does it matter strength-wise?
 
The only difference in strength is if the hand layup does not fully bond to the surface. As long as the hand layup fully bonds, there is no difference in strength, just in weight.
 
Originally posted by dgreenapple
Question -- I am going to lay up the 1/4" plywood with Carbon Fiber. In the past, working with fiberglass, I simply epoxy it on and let it dry. I have seen where people create fin supports and put sandbags on the layed-up fins during curing.

Do you believe adding the pressure of the sandbags makes a material difference in stength after curing? I'm confident it looks nicer, from seeing my results of vacuum bagging, but does it matter strength-wise?
True vacuum bagging will make a stronger composite by removing the air dissolved in the epoxy and will insure that the epoxy totally wets the fibers and prevents void formation.

Forget the sand. When you pull a vacuum on the layup, you are actually applying up to 14.7 psi pressure on the composite. That's equal to 20.6' of sand! The only way to add more pressure than you get with vacuum bagging is to place the bagged composite into a hydraulic press. If you are making a 12"x12" composite plate you have to apply a 2100 pound load to the plate before you exceed the 14.7 psi atmospheric load obtained by vacuum bagging. A 10 ton press would put ~10 atmospheres pressure on the composite and possibly make it fractionally denser, but a press of this size costs several thousand dollars.

In this case a lot of nothing wins. LOL

Bob
 
Hmmm.... A vacuum bag doesn't fit around a decent sized fin can. Are you saying that a weight applied to the fin can area in tip-to-tip glassing isn't of value? Come on! I have done tip-to-tip many times over and adding a breather and poly batting with some weight on the area pulls out much more epoxy than most any other readily available technique including squeegees.

Originally posted by bobkrech
The only way to add more pressure than you get with vacuum bagging is to place the bagged composite into a hydraulic press.
 
Originally posted by dixontj93060
Hmmm.... A vacuum bag doesn't fit around a decent sized fin can. Are you saying that a weight applied to the fin can area in tip-to-tip glassing isn't of value? Come on! I have done tip-to-tip many times over and adding a breather and poly batting with some weight on the area pulls out much more epoxy than most any other readily available technique including squeegees.
No. What I said is that you need 20.6' of sand to equal the force applied by vacuum bagging. A half a foot of sand will generate ~1/4 psi force on the epoxy.

Bob
 
Certainly it isn't as much pressure. The question is, however, how much pressure is needed to create a good layup? I've reached fiber:resin ratios of around 60% in carbon fiber layups with just 1psi of compression. It would seem that you get into diminishing returns with the higher pressures.
 
When you do not vacuum bag.....
Something I do for fins (not attached to anything) or bulkplates or any other flat item I am adding carbon or glass to....

Go to neighbor hood building supply joint (Home Depot) and buy a couple of 12" x 12" decorative mirror squares (Or any other glass mirrors you find). These are quite cheap and make wonderful laser flat surfaces for your layups. I stack books on mine for weight to get that 1/4 PSI of pressure Bob is talking about.

Lots of options to consider David. Find the one that works best for you!!!
-----------------------------------------------
I think I like best using your original 1/8" ply fins and building up the laminate layers to get what you want. I "think" what you have plus a few layers of carbon and a final layer of glass would do great.

Good Luck on whatever you decide.
 
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