Hypertek M and Wildman Ultimate, Anybody have experience?

[V2rocketeer]

Hello All

I am looking at a Level 3 project. I have just sourced a Hypertek Armageddon M motor and looking for a suitable kit. The measurements of the booster on the Ultimate are 60" and the length of the M is 54". I am just curious if anyone has gone down this path before and put an Armageddon M in the Wildman Ultimate? I would like to stick to a kit if possible but a scratch build is not out of the question however I live in Australia and sourcing parts can get expensive so an all in one Kit suits me.

Cheers

Chris

 

[legranddudu]

Chris,

I know your problem very well ....a stock rocket will not suit with our very long motors with the design of the Avbay being same time coupler between the airframe.

...Now I see 2 potential solutions: the one is you move the whole electronic in the NC and you study a serial deployment concept from there ...or you just ... order an additional coupler from WILDMAN... You will use it as originaly designed to connect upper and lower airframe and your motor may be as long as you wish. You move same time the avbay INSIDE the upper airframe as long as you need so you have as usual enough space for the drogue & harness. Saying that of course it reduces by same length your space for the main BUT you will gain this missing space with the volume of the NC that you need to open and attach at the far end. This is fairly easy with the new FW NCs as the tip is screw and easy to modify with an attachement point in the inside. If your NC is a stock plastic or Gelcoat one you will need to epoxy the attachement point. This is also not a bad idea as you can epoxy same time add lead to compensate the heavier motors we use in hybrid and restore the balance.

I did this with a stock 4" Eagle Claw from Tim without need to extend airframes. And believe me I was worried to host a 48" contrail casing inside..but it works as described above just perfect. And the rocket looks just normal... and flew 3000ft with a K reload...

Denis

Hello All

I am looking at a Level 3 project. I have just sourced a Hypertek Armageddon M motor and looking for a suitable kit. The measurements of the booster on the Ultimate are 60" and the length of the M is 54". I am just curious if anyone has gone down this path before and put an Armageddon M in the Wildman Ultimate? I would like to stick to a kit if possible but a scratch build is not out of the question however I live in Australia and sourcing parts can get expensive so an all in one Kit suits me.

Cheers

Chris

 

[neond7]

You inquired about a kit for the Hypertek motor. I don't know about the Ultimate kit, but the LOC HyperLoc 1600 might fit your needs, as it is designed for hybrid motors.

 

[Rocketjunkie]

The Wildman kits are heavy and the Hypertek M's are relatively low thrust. I've seen it done but the liftoff is very slow. You will need a long, well supported rail and calm conditions. I would recommend building light and the LOC kits will be less than 1/2 the weight of the fiberglass Wildman rocket.

 

[COrocket]

The recommendation for the LOC kit is a really good one. Even though the Ultimate Wildman is a kit, it is one of the most expensive so you could easily modify or lengthen a LOC kit with a larger booster within that price if you order everything from one place. The Wildman kits are nice, but man do they take a lot of power to get off the ground. To my knowledge there are no kits that come stock with boosters longer than 60" so you are going to have to splice two airframes together using a coupler if you want longer.

 

[legranddudu]

Funny that you guys do not have a good impression on hybrids. It just depends on the right reload to use.

The ones I use are all getting of the pad like bullets. In stock rockets. FG from Wildman and Madcow. Heavy certainly but works just perfect.

You need to modify the kits but you do not need to extend by definition (exception short fat ones of course). Just move the Avbay forward and use an additional coupler to join the airframes.

By the way last L1450 hybrid I started put the field on fire and just destroyed the deflector below. And achieved 315 mph after exact 5 seconds and 1100ft of flight..apogee just above 3000ft ....not too bad for 50 lbs and 8" ...

Coming saturday I shall test an L2525 in my Megacowabunga XXL. This is going to be such a noise... bang and away...I am really excited...

 

[V2rocketeer]

Thanks for the opinions so far. I do have in my back room an unstarted LOC Bruiser EXP. It is one of the newer designs with the 3 part body tubes. I wonder if getting a 98mm MM and an extra length of BT or 2 might be the answer. I had moved away from this idea early on as I don't have any experience with fiberglassing over cardboard and thought that the end weight would be similar to a all fg to start with.



Chris

 

[COrocket]

Funny that you guys do not have a good impression on hybrids. It just depends on the right reload to use.

It's not that we don't like hybrids, it's just rocketjunkie was saying that the Hypertek line is relatively low thrust. With the hardware the OP specified it looks like a M1000 reload. It could certainly be done but I would be careful and run sims to make sure that the rocket gets off the pad quick enough.

 

[UPscaler]

being that 6" of coupler extends into the airframe (don't have the ultimate wildman, but do have the ultimate darkstar) Your motor should fit, only just. You could always adjust the placement of the AV bay vent band to allow for a bit more motor room.



Braden

 

[neond7]

Thanks for the opinions so far. I do have in my back room an unstarted LOC Bruiser EXP. It is one of the newer designs with the 3 part body tubes. I wonder if getting a 98mm MM and an extra length of BT or 2 might be the answer. I had moved away from this idea early on as I don't have any experience with fiberglassing over cardboard and thought that the end weight would be similar to a all fg to start with.



Chris

Two layers of 6oz fiberglass over a cardboard tube would still be lighter than a solid FG tube. I lost the "before and after" list of weights I used to keep when I glassed my tubes to see how much weight it added. From memory, seems like a 5.5" tube gets about a pound of extra weight. Mileage will vary of course on the length of the tube.

Its generally accepted that even a stock LOC tube will handle an "M" impulse motor, people like myself typically fiberglass our tubes to prevent transportation and landing damage. I'll be attempting my level 3 later in the year on LOC tube with a 2x wrap of 6oz and a 1x wrap of 3oz.

That being said, I've never built a full FG rocket, so all of this is strictly my opinion.....

 

[Fdog]

Is 60" the maximum length the raw tubing is manufactured to? Asking this because I don't know.

If it's made longer, just call Tim. Actually I'd say just call him to find out. He will happily cut the body tube any length you want, I know this because he's done it for me.


All the best, James

 

[G_T]

Some commercial tubing manufacturers make tubes up to around 20' long and then cut down to requested size.

With a long motor, you can use the motor itself as the coupler in a pair of tubes. Top end retention and a thrust ring at the bottom keeps it all together. Effectively the lower tube is a long fin can. Then it is convenient to put the electronics bay in the middle of the second tube, right above the motor. Tether the recovery above that, and use the nosecone volume constructively. This is what I was going to do with my L3 project on a long M hybrid. I still plan to do that rocket at some point, but on an EX hybrid instead of commercial.

One could even use an additional tube. Fin can, tank tube, upper tube. The tank tube is then just a tube with no features that is sandwitched in place. Swap that tube out for different length motors. Minimum diameter, and minimum volume, while accomodating different motor lengths.

Gerald

 

[V2rocketeer]

Well since I last posted I did the deal with the motor. I now have a Hypertek Armageddon M with 2 fuel grains. M1000 and M1015. I have until March 2015 to build this project so I have ample time. I quick did a simulation with Open Rocket on the Wildman Ultimate with the motors listed above. The lift off weight is 20.5 kilos and the speed off the rail is 33 and 37 feet per second in the generic simulation. I did some very basic cost analysis of upgrading the Bruiser and at the end of the day it is within spitting distance of the Ultimate once all the new bits were bought to make it a 98mm level 3 bird. That and the fact I have not fiberglassed a rocket before makes me lean more to a FG kit if possible. Looking for honest feedback from others who have flown or who fly the Armageddon M's. I was thinking of getting a section from Wildman of BT to extend the Booster to allow for a drogue or use a tenderdezzender to deploy both main and drogue from the payload area with the Ultimate.

Chris

 

[V2rocketeer]

Surely someone must be still flying the Armageddon M? It can't be that rare?

Cheers

Chris

 

[CarVac]

Surely someone must be still flying the Armageddon M? It can't be that rare?

Cheers

Chris

What info exactly are you looking for? About the motor?

I've seen one launch at ROC, and one of my professors at Mudd has flown one.

 

[V2rocketeer]

Thank you for your reply Carvac

What I am looking for is what sort of rockets people have had successful flights in. I would like to try a level three attempt in 2015. At the moment I have zero experience with hybrids and will be spending the next year working on that. I am trying to gather ideas of what other people have flown these motors in. So far just about every rocket I have seen is some sort of scratch build or kit bash. I live in Australia and we have a great vendor here but we are still limited to what we can get and the time/money involved can get prohibitive. I have access to the Wildman Ultimate from my reasonably local vendor and it seems to sim ok but there was some questions above about weight. I love Fiberglass rockets and try to keep every rocket I have above D motor size to fiberglass. (except my Bruiser EXP that I haven't started yet) Open rocket puts the Ultimate at just over 12000 feet on the Hypertek and the only issue I see is that the launch rail speed is 33 to 37 f/s. That is all sim work and I seem to always end up being heavier than the sim lol. I did a little rough cost analysis of fiberglassing the Bruiser, lengthing the body, and changing the MM to 98mm and the cost is very close to buying the Ultimate in the first place. That doesn't take into account I have not fiberglassed a rocket before either. Even if LOC's tubing is up to M power I would hate to have a successful flight and not be able to cert because of a broken fin or dented bt on landing. The Hybrid Motor will keep the weight upduring landing as well.

What info exactly are you looking for? About the motor?

I've seen one launch at ROC, and one of my professors at Mudd has flown one.

 

[samtc]

Late to the discussion but, I did my Level 3 on a Hypertek M. The rocket was constructed using two 48" pieces of 6" PML Phenolic with a kevlar wrap. Eric at Badazz cut the fins for me and they were spot on. I used Rouse-Tech CD3 to pop the drogue out and Eric's takeoff on a Descender to release the main at 1,200". I flew the 4630 tank with the 3500 fill stem in it to keep it under the 10,000 foot waiver. (7,700 AGL) I flew it several months later at Bayboro, NC with the 4630 fill stem. Flight cracked the 10,000 foot mark.

Level 3 Flight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByUNrzCVLFI

PM if you want to talk about your project.

Sam