Project MESOS. A two-stage flight to 293,488 ft!

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
The specific impulse 233s + sounds impressive. I think shuttle SRB specific impulse was around 240s at sea level (vacuum Isp was nearly 270s). That must be some propellant and grain design. You have constant thrust for many seconds. I am wondering how you arrived at the delay time from first stage burn-out to second stage ignition.
The longer I waited to stage, the more likely the sustainer would survive the motor burn. I made sure I had the correct weights. Also having good thrust curves to base the simulations off of made it much easier. I was shooting for Mach 0.85, in reality I could’ve coasted a bit longer.
 
The longer I waited to stage, the more likely the sustainer would survive the motor burn. I made sure I had the correct weights. Also having good thrust curves to base the simulations off of made it much easier. I was shooting for Mach 0.85, in reality I could’ve coasted a bit longer.
I still wonder if waiting a little longer to stage would have actually lost you altitude. As it was, the sustainer coasted down to Mach 1.06 and then lit. If it had coasted down to Mach 0.85 it would have passed through M1 twice. Once when slowing down and once after it lit. That seems like a high drag scenario to be avoided. Although, I guess the trade off is the drag from that scenario versus the drag at max speed and at what altitude max speed occurs. A sim is probably needed to say which is best. Better yet, run the experiment! Fly it again but with a longer delay this time. :)
 
Last edited:
I still wonder if waiting a little longer to stage would have actually lost you altitude. As it was, the sustainer coasted down to Mach 1.06 and then lit. If it had coasted down to Mach 0.85 it would have passed through M1 twice. Once when slowing down and once after it lit. That seems like a high drag scenario to be avoided. Although, I guess the trade off is the drag from that scenario versus the drag at max speed and at what altitude max speed occurs. A sim is probably needed to say which is best. Better yet, run the experiment! Fly it again but with a longer delay this time. :)
Vern you do indeed lose altitude albeit only about 5k but top speed is 0.2 Mach lower and at a higher altitude +5k which I’m guessing the leading edges would appreciate ;).

Instead of editing video I’m building up a second sustainer airframe. This garage weather is too good to pass up after working in a sauna all summer.
 
The specific impulse 233s + sounds impressive. I think shuttle SRB specific impulse was around 240s at sea level (vacuum Isp was nearly 270s). That must be some propellant and grain design. You have constant thrust for many seconds. I am wondering how you arrived at the delay time from first stage burn-out to second stage ignition.
233 s is quite high for amateur propellant but not extreme. Shuttle propellant at 1000 psi and sea level had Isp of 266, if memory serves.
 
Some of the sim's I've been doing are showing short ignition intervals going higher.
But that's high up where the v^2 power of drag is a lot less then the v^2 power of kinetic energy and peak velocity drives altitude.

=> Gotta run sims to know
 
233 s is quite high for amateur propellant but not extreme. Shuttle propellant at 1000 psi and sea level had Isp of 266, if memory serves.

88% solids Al/AP/HTPB propellants typically have a reference ISP (1000 psi chamber, 14.7 psi ambient) of around 261 seconds. This is absolute ideal, no losses of any kind. Once you add various efficiencies and real word effects, you typically see around 250 seconds for the best you can do with 1000 psi chamber pressure. Run the chamber pressure up higher, you can do a little better. For our little hobby motors running at 500 psi or so, the best you can do is ~225 seconds ideal. So 233 seconds is very possible with a sporty chamber pressure, and definitely a good performing amateur motor. Very nice work!
 
How much delay was there between the ignition signal and the sustainer motor coming up to pressure? I saw that the O ground test was nearly instant-on.
 
How much delay was there between the ignition signal and the sustainer motor coming up to pressure?
It was similar to what you see on the booster which is good to know. I had never tested that igniter at altitude. There was also a sealed “burst” cap on the nozzle which was only tested on the ground prior to this flight. The M830 ground test on YouTube used a different igniter and just a friction fitted cap which I moved away from because of slow ignition.
 
Wow!!

How far did it drift on recovery?
How far do you let it free fall before you eject the parachute? Anything special to control drift? Any closeups of the rocket afterwards. How did the air frame survive?
 
Woah, that photo confused me for a moment -- I saw the Estes 'chute, and thought that was for the Big Rocket! Only a second later did I see the small rocket with the crushed cans holder.
 
Is this a record altitude for a fully recovered amateur rocket?
Yes, I think it is. If I had not landed on rocks, the second stage would have been good for reuse but one of the fins got clipped and the upper airframe chipped. It was a nasty spot to land in. The first stage is ready for another flight.

I’m not sure CSXT was designed for reuse or full recovery beyond the payload. But I never considered that project amateur in regards to the manpower and funding behind it. *These are just my opinions.*
 
Yes, I think it is. If I had not landed on rocks, the second stage would have been good for reuse but one of the fins got clipped and the upper airframe chipped. It was a nasty spot to land in. The first stage is ready for another flight.

I’m not sure CSXT was designed for reuse or full recovery beyond the payload. But I never considered that project amateur in regards to the manpower and funding behind it. *These are just my opinions.*
Quite awesome and congratulations to you for the record. I agree there is a gray area in the definition of amateur and your achievement is ground breaking when factoring in resources. Your rocket might have professional value as a sounding rocket. I am not sure the cutoff, but you are close. You might want to consider that. I am doubling down on publishing :) Space historians I am sure would be interested in noting this accomplishment.
 
Every club should have someone like Kip. Not only is he our current prefect, he is one of three TAPs (inexplicably, he signed my L3 paperwork). He encourages all of us to push ourselves beyond a 3 fin nose cone rocket. We regularly see staging, boost gliders, clusters, minimum diameter, and more at our launches. We do an annual high altitude launch at Black Rock because Kip wants it to happen. He brings both the sense of adventure with his high altitude launches and calmness when I’ve been ready to throw in the towel at a launch. He has the heart of a teacher that makes him really enjoyable to be around. Every club should be so lucky.
 
Completely agree with what Joe says about how great it is to have Kip with UROC. He has always been available for any seemingly insignificant question I would ask as I was working on my L1 and L2. He administered my L2 test and also signed my L2 paperwork after my flight. Didn't even give me crap about the 1 question I missed on the test🙃. Great guy and I'll always enjoy sitting around the campfire talking rocketry with him.
 
Last edited:
Wow!!

How far did it drift on recovery?
How far do you let it free fall before you eject the parachute? Anything special to control drift? Any closeups of the rocket afterwards. How did the air frame survive?
I don't have too many pictures of the sustainer, as I was helping Kip retrieve it and didn't bring my camera. But I have some of the Booster!

If anyone uses these photos, please let me know.

1665771993219.png1665772018463.png1665772040867.png1665772071966.png
1665771957147.png
 
According to my old "Missiles, Moonprobes, and Megaparsecs"(1964) by Willy Ley, Willey Ley states that the delayed upper stage method for reaching high altitudes was first tried in April 1955 using a Nike Deacon. The payload was 34 pounds. Peter Alway in his book, "Rockets of the World" (1999) 3rd Ed states that this project was performed by the University of Michigan. The ignition of the second stage was supposed to be 15.5 seconds, but the actual delay was 17 seconds. The peak altitude was 350,000 feet 156 seconds after take-off. Similar results were acheived for the second Nike Deacon shot in June. Peter Alway gives more details about the experiments that were conducted.
 
I don't have too many pictures of the sustainer, as I was helping Kip retrieve it and didn't bring my camera. But I have some of the Booster!

If anyone uses these photos, please let me know.
Great photos and like how the open end of the booster dug into the playa.
What is the photo of the white thing?
 
I love the Data you got from this flight! i feel like Johnny Five from short circuit, "NEED MORE INPUT!"
I would be curious to know more about the Ignition components and the ejection/recovery components. AWsome job keeping your fins together too!
 
Well, color me impressed. I've been asking the big question "Can I stage it?" for almost a year now but this is several worlds away from what I do. Well done, Kip.
 
Update: still working on the video. But I’m more-so focusing on taking advantage of the nice fall weather to complete the composites work on a new sustainer airframe. As you may have heard the one that flew earlier this month landed on a rocky mountainside. This damaged one fin corner beyond what I’d be comfortable repairing for a high performance rocket. I wasn’t planning on building another rocket right now but figured why not?
Fins are tacked and the vast majority of the work lies ahead. But it’s going very quickly the second time around.
734DEB79-2F33-4F9A-85CB-BEA2AE049E38.jpeg
 
Update: still working on the video. But I’m more-so focusing on taking advantage of the nice fall weather to complete the composites work on a new sustainer airframe. As you may have heard the one that flew earlier this month landed on a rocky mountainside. This damaged one fin corner beyond what I’d be comfortable repairing for a high performance rocket. I wasn’t planning on building another rocket right now but figured why not?
Fins are tacked and the vast majority of the work lies ahead. But it’s going very quickly the second time around.
View attachment 542034
Are those just surface mounted or did you cut slots into the airframe?
 
Surface mounted. They’re aligned straight to the airframe with aluminum angles. No pics of that because my hands are full when tacking one in place.
I suspect lots of us have questions on your project. Fin alignment would be one of mine. Almost all of the jigs I have tried tend to be worse than my eye. (I can always see a slight misalignment.) I realize taking a picture is hard but maybe take a mock pic with a generic tube and fin?
 
I get blown away by things like this, to be honest. We call it "amateur" but I can sniff out some top-notch engineering here. When I think of all the complexities of rocket motor design, of material properties changing with temperature, thermal expansion and contraction, of machining tolerances, combustion pressure, hoop stress in the airframe - as others noted, propellant specific impulse - and then you get into the complexities of electronics, and making them able to survive 15+ g's. It seems like Barrowman is the least of your worries! And then, of course, mach 5 is no joke, we see the ablation... as @AlexBruccoleri said, fin alignment - they're aligned perfectly on paper! So the craftsmanship to turn drawing into successfully flying object (SFO...;))... are the tolerances on drawn tube good enough, or do you have to machine the tube, well, machining the inside of a tube concentric to the outside is no walk in the park. And again, what is "concentric enough?

And you realize some things that you hadn't thought of, like fins don't work where there is no air! It had me thinking, if you wanted to keep the pointy end up, how would you do it? Could it even be done passively, that is, without reaction control motors? This dumb retired engineer doesn't have a clue, though I suspect gyros would be involved!

And then, as others have noted, the cost, not just in materials but the hours of loving labor (that almost drove him nuts, as he noted). @Kip_Daugirdas, you well deserve the praises heaped on you here. But as to your update, with the new rocket build...

1666196670518.png
 
Back
Top