Mid power to L1 cert transition rocket suggestions?

[cls]

ue that I'd be an infrequent HPR flyer. But I'd like to do it right, all the electronic gadgets, dual deploy, etc. I find that stuff fascinating.

Don't overload your L1 cert rocket with all that. Put it all in your second L1 capable rocket.

For the cert flight, go simple, motor eject, lower altitude. Something that can fly on G motors so you can practice launch a few times before the big event.

 

[jmasterj]

Don't overload your L1 cert rocket with all that. Put it all in your second L1 capable rocket.

For the cert flight, go simple, motor eject, lower altitude. Something that can fly on G motors so you can practice launch a few times before the big event.

I think that's exactly what he's talking about doing.

 

[jmasterj]

But I'd like to do it right, all the electronic gadgets, dual deploy, etc. I find that stuff fascinating.

You could also do that with mid power first, no need for high power to do those things.

 

[T-Rex]

If you are worried about losing the rocket, a Jolly Logic Chute Release would help, a lot. They are simple and can be used in MPR rockets (anything BT60 and larger) so you can learn to use it.
A little pricey at first, but the benefit is a shorter walk, and easily transferred from one rocket to another.

 

[tsmith1315]

If you're

My altitude limit? Or the field's altitude limit?

For a keep it simple rocket without a tracker, I'm nervous about finding it to altitudes above, say, 1800'. And that would be on a low wind day. Doing an L1 attempt is futile if I can't find it.

Yours. Not just for the L1 flight, but future flights. And that's a good answer.

You could also do that with mid power first, no need for high power to do those things.

Exactly.

It's perfectly doable in mid-power. There are small altimeters like the Quark that don't take up a lot of room. It doesn't have to be complicated or expensive, and a 2" or so airframe would be roomy enough to keep it straightforward with a small unit. My Arreaux has a Proton in the coupler and a Mini Tx in the nosecone for G flights.

A little practice with that in your MPR field could open up a few possibilities for a L1 rocket.

 

[Tractionengines]

Don't forget 2 things. 1) Be careful if you decide to shorten/lighten a kit, in order to get it to fly on smaller motors. If it was not OverStable to start, shortening it can make it unstable. 2) You can almost always lengthen the rocket and not worry about being unstable. Maybe overstable, but that's not a big deal if you use a high thrust motor to minimize weathercocking by having good speed off the rail.

ie.. the 2.6" T-LOC 29mm Motor can fly on E, F, and G stock. ADD an AV-BAY and section of payload bay. Then you can use G, H, and I motors.

So you use the same rocket, with 2 versions, to expand the motor classes.

 

[Nateairman]

Again, this is more of an HPR rocket. I'd be more comfortable with rockets that come natively with a 29mm mount. Baby steps. Park fly to 600 feet, L1 cert at maybe 1500 feet. My local field is basically 600 feet on a side, with a pinch point of perhaps 400 feet in the middle. I want to be able to fly this rocket at home, but attempt L1 at a non-threatening 1500 to 1800 feet. LOC Athena should work, but I have not checked other options like the Leviathan, among others.

Then I can buy motors without restriction to go above and beyond on future designs. Baby steps.

Hans.

Hans,

Have you looked at a loc deployer? Fly it as motor deploy with 29mm and then work out dual deploy before making the jump to HPR...

Just a thought

 

[Sooner Boomer]

The rocket I mentioned hits the sweet spot between what might be called a "model" rocket, and "high power". It uses 18 inches of 54mm tubing for the body* (PML phenolic), and a 7 inch piece of 29mm tubing (again, PML phenolic) for the motor mount. Fins are 1/8" ply, through-the-wall construction. It uses two centering rings of 1/4" ply; one at the top of the fin tab, another at the aft. The aft ring has a pair if #8 T-nuts (set from the inside) for motor retention. I originally built it using a piece of 1/4" brass tubing as the launch guide - we didn't have rails when I first built it. It was built with yellow glue, with internal and external fillets.

I've never had an altimiter in it. Sims say an E23 should put it up to about 700'. A G80 should get up to about 2400' I flew a bunch of G and F motors and used motor eject without a JLCR or any electronics. My L1 cert was with an H128, with a simmed altitude of about 3000'. This one time I *did* use a JLCR.

I've made two more rockets with very similar planform. One uses a 29mm mount and the other (my L2 cert rocket) a 38mm mount. Each of these uses a full 36" of body tube, 18" of motor mount, and the exact same fin design.

I last flew the original rocket at Argonia on an old G64 reload. The motor chuffed and spit before slowly lifting off and arcing over and plowing up some milo. To repair, I spliced in a 14" piece of body tube, making the rebuild slightly longer than the original.

*when I built the rocket, I bought a 36" piece of tubing. Half went into this rocket, the other half into the "Hattrick", a rocket with three interchangable motor mounts.

 

[JackC]

My altitude limit? Or the field's altitude limit?

For a keep it simple rocket without a tracker, I'm nervous about finding it to altitudes above, say, 1800'. And that would be on a low wind day. Doing an L1 attempt is futile if I can't find it.

The field in Eastern Oregon has a crazy high limit, about 20k, with nearly 50k call-in, I think. I probably should just buy a tracker and not worry about altitude. That would simplify matters considerably. I have held off on buying a tracker, as I didn't want to go to the expense only to lose it in a tree or stream. But there is nothing but sage brush in Brothers Oregon. Maybe a bit of barbed wire here and there. Difficult to lose a tracker unless there is a malfunction.

Hans.

Hans,

I fly at Brothers, too!

You don’t need a tracker for a L1 rocket there. A handy way to get its landing direction is use your IPhone compass to point you in the direction where it lands then walk on that bearing to recover the rocket. At 2,000 feet or so, someone will have eyes on it, so recovery should be fairly easy. Another thing you can do is tie one of those key chain alarms on your shock cord. Before you load the rocket on the pad, activate the alarm. When the rocket lands, the alarm will lead you right to the rocket.

I hope to see you out in the sage. If you need anything, just let me know. Just ask around for “Jack.”

 

[JackC]

You may also want to look at an Aerotech Sumo. It’s a short rocket but it is a four inch diameter airframe. It has a lot of drag, so it’s great for low L1 flights. It also tends to recover close to the pads. My son has one. He stuffs an AT H128 or H165 in it and easily sees it during the entire flight. He loves it! I would not recommend E motors but high thrust Fs and nearly all G motors are fine for it.

 

[JackC]

Hans,

I fly at Brothers, too!

You don’t need a tracker for a L1 rocket there. A handy way to get its landing direction is use your IPhone compass to point you in the direction where it lands then walk on that bearing to recover the rocket. At 2,000 feet or so, someone will have eyes on it, so recovery should be fairly easy. Another thing you can do is tie one of those key chain alarms on your shock cord. Before you load the rocket on the pad, activate the alarm. When the rocket lands, the alarm will lead you right to the rocket.

I hope to see you out in the sage. If you need anything, just let me know. Just ask around for “Jack.”

Actually, now that I think about it, the best place to do an L1 cert flight in Oregon would be at our Sheridan launch in mid September. It’s open farmland so you will easily see the rocket for recovery. Recovery there is definitely much faster. So, you may want to consider that option.

 

[waltr]

Like the Aerotech Sumo another high drag rocket is the LOC 4" Goblin. Does around 500 feet on G's and under 1000' on baby H's. It is a very complete kit with 54mm MM and adapters for 38 & 29mm motors. I did my L1 with it using an H238 and it went 956 feet.

 

[4regt4]

You could also do that with mid power first, no need for high power to do those things.

Hmmm.... Yeah, true that. Perhaps that would be a different approach. Work my way up to a complex G powered rocket, once all the bugs are worked out, stuff an H in there...

Hans.

 

[Hyak]

First of all, I would agree with others that have said just build a full HPR. Really, who cares if you only fly it rarely. And why not use a full-on DD capable for cert? You dont have to launch as DD. (Need some slight reconfiguring though)

Anyway, you mentioned the IQSY. (lots of Mfctrs make that) but IMO the LOC IQSY Tomohawk is a great choice. Its a nice flyer.

However, that said, if you still really want to go with a primarilly MPR that will fly HPR, have a look at AeroTech. The Arreux for example,*will definately* get up there on an H, (3~4k) (The Arreuax on an H has been desribed as "A needle in the sky". ) but you could fly all day on E,F,& G's (Until your E CATOs that is! )

That said, I have never flown E, F, or G motors, but I know the Aerotech kits are for those, so I don't have any idea how anything I have/have experiance with would fly on the lower impulse stuff (I do A~D and H+)

It is not a large rocket, however it is fairly rugged, using Plastic FinLoc fins and utilises a Baffle system (which so far seems to actually work well after several flights on H motors)

You can put an Altimeter in it depending on how you build it and in any case If you're going to fly it on an H, you *should* probably equip. it with a Tracker. Oh and just for visual tracking purposes, stick with AT's Yellow Paint scheme (or something really bright)

Anyway, my thoughts....

Whatever you choose, "Be Safe, Have fun!"

 

[4regt4]

If you are worried about losing the rocket, a Jolly Logic Chute Release would help, a lot. They are simple and can be used in MPR rockets (anything BT60 and larger) so you can learn to use it.
A little pricey at first, but the benefit is a shorter walk, and easily transferred from one rocket to another.

I have a JLCR. My problem is losing it in the air, and then not spotting it on the way down. Had a recent flight on an F where we all lost sight of it. It was not a super high flight, but shot right into the sun (visually). Crap. Then someone spotted it hanging from the chute shortly before it landed. Had they not spotted it, I would have had basically no idea where to walk, as the winds were swirling.

Hans.

 

[4regt4]

First of all, I would agree with others that have said just build a full HPR. Really, who cares if you only fly it rarely. And why not use a full-on DD capable for cert? You dont have to launch as DD. (Need some slight reconfiguring though)

Anyway, you mentioned the IQSY. (lots of Mfctrs make that) but IMO the LOC IQSY Tomohawk is a great choice. Its a nice flyer.

However, that said, if you still really want to go with a primarilly MPR that will fly HPR, have a look at AeroTech. The Arreux for example,*will definately* get up there on an H, (3~4k) (The Arreuax on an H has been desribed as "A needle in the sky". ) but you could fly all day on E,F,& G's (Until your E CATOs that is! )

This is what I'm trying to avoid. I don't want a 3-4k rocket, at least not without a tracker. I'd like something rather draggy, to keep it under 2000'

Hans.

 

[David_Stack]

Perhaps that would be a different approach. Work my way up to a complex G powered rocket, once all the bugs are worked out, stuff an H in there...

Good Morning Hans;

Might want to give this thread a read:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...aved-with-practice-psii-trainer-fleet.140897/
Allen/Nytrunner did that very thing (a whole fleet of 'complex' dual-deploy MPR rockets equipped with altimeters, etc.), and while he did it to prepare for a L2 cert flight there is no reason why you could not follow that same path and then as you note, "... stuff an H in there" for your L1.

 

[4regt4]

Actually, now that I think about it, the best place to do an L1 cert flight in Oregon would be at our Sheridan launch in mid September. It’s open farmland so you will easily see the rocket for recovery. Recovery there is definitely much faster. So, you may want to consider that option.

I've only flown at Brothers once, this last May. Had a great time, it's arguably as much or more fun to sit and spectate. I don't have camping gear, don't really like "roughing" it too much. So it's hotels and driving daily to/from Bend. Hotels there are expensive, so it ends up being a $1000 weekend including gas. And my wife's SUV got hopelessly dirty inside and out driving that access road, that she made me pay for a $150 detail job. I would have spent hours trying to get the dust out of the interior. But that's not going to stop me from returning.

I doubt I'll have anything ready for Sheridan this year for L1. I've heard it can get rather crowded, being conveniently close for the Portland area flyers. I'll likely go this year, bring a couple D and E rockets (OK, maybe stuff an F in one of them if I'm feeling brave), but spend most of my time observing.

Hans.

 

[4regt4]

Hans,

Have you looked at a loc deployer? Fly it as motor deploy with 29mm and then work out dual deploy before making the jump to HPR...

Just a thought

Nice! Do you often launch right beside a tree? <jk>

Hans.

 

[4regt4]

Hans,

Have you looked at a loc deployer? Fly it as motor deploy with 29mm and then work out dual deploy before making the jump to HPR...

Just a thought

Just looked.... The Deployer looks like the perfect intro to dual deployment. I'll have to give this a much closer look. Any tips for using with motor deploy? Thanks.

Hans.

 

[mtnmanak]

Go with a LOC IV. Probably the most versatile rocket on the market. All my kids built them when they became teenagers and flew them on F and G motors until they were able to get their Junior L1 certs with an H. We have a fleet of them and they fly at the park and every club launch on all kinds of motors. This rocket will be in your stable forever. It is dead simple to build and you can use wood glue, if you want.

Once you get some H & I motors under your belt, build another LOC IV with dual deploy.

 

[boatgeek]

Just looked.... The Deployer looks like the perfect intro to dual deployment. I'll have to give this a much closer look. Any tips for using with motor deploy? Thanks.

Hans.

I haven't looked too deeply at the Deployer, but the usual mode is to put the main chute in the top of the fin can where the drogue would normally go and just leave the top section empty.

 

[Jmhepworth]

I like fiberglass. No more broken fins on the way to a launch. For a mid-power to level 1, I like 38mm rockets with a 29mm motor mount. They are light enough for an F or G and can take the biggest 29mm that will fit. I like both WIldman and Mach1.

 

[smstachwick]

Having only skimmed this thread, I can say that I’ve had a similar conversation before. I was looking for a rocket with a 38mm mount that could fly on anything in that diameter (power ranges G thru K), remain in the limits for a Class 1 rocket, and stay under 1000ft on G motors. What I learned from that discussion is that there are rockets that make this kind of thing possible, but there will inevitably be compromises. Every design will make them differently, which is part of the fun of having rockets that are optimized to different degrees.

So go for an extremely versatile airframe if you desire (I ended up getting my heart set on a Wildman Darkstar Jr. for my purposes) but don’t be surprised when you find that there are some specialty jobs, like certification flights or flying on unusual motors, that would be better served by a specialist design.

 

[T-Rex]

I have a JLCR. My problem is losing it in the air, and then not spotting it on the way down. Had a recent flight on an F where we all lost sight of it. It was not a super high flight, but shot right into the sun (visually). Crap. Then someone spotted it hanging from the chute shortly before it landed. Had they not spotted it, I would have had basically no idea where to walk, as the winds were swirling.

Hans.

I usually use the JLCR to tie the bottom of the chute closed. This allows the chute to act like a streamer slowing the rocket and making it more visible. Also maybe adjust the release for a higher altitude.
A larger rocket is also easier to see. What size bird did you lose sight of?

 

[4regt4]

I usually use the JLCR to tie the bottom of the chute closed. This allows the chute to act like a streamer slowing the rocket and making it more visible. Also maybe adjust the release for a higher altitude.
A larger rocket is also easier to see. What size bird did you lose sight of?

It was an Estes Executioner (BT-80). One tough bird. Survived 2 landings w/o chute (not ballistic, chute failures for other reasons) , 2 Catos that slid it along the ground for a hundred feet, and a few other mishaps. All with only minor paint scuffs.

Hans.

Edit: I have another Executioner kit with parts for 29mm motor mount. I wonder how it would sim with an H? Probably too much.....

 

[bjphoenix]

For the cert flight, go simple, motor eject, lower altitude. Something that can fly on G motors so you can practice launch a few times before the big event.

This is pretty much what I did- using a model similar to the LOC IV. I've flown it on H and I motors, but probably not even a half dozen times overall. I've flown other models more on G motors. If you use motor eject a L1 isn't all that much more difficult than flying the average Estes model.

So if a person is building one or more rockets to fly on midpower and high power they would have to decide how many times they intend to fly on G and how many times they intend to fly on H and then put corresponding amount of effort into each one. If you intend to fly very much you'll want more than one rocket anyway, just for some variety. For flying on F and G motors a 2.6" to 3" diameter rocket works well and gets plenty of altitude. People do fly them on larger motors if they have large enough field. Lots of people at my club fly 2.6" size rockets on larger motors and generally with dual deploy they don't have a problem with recovery.

 

[4regt4]

This is pretty much what I did- using a model similar to the LOC IV. I've flown it on H and I motors, but probably not even a half dozen times overall. I've flown other models more on G motors. If you use motor eject a L1 isn't all that much more difficult than flying the average Estes model.

So if a person is building one or more rockets to fly on midpower and high power they would have to decide how many times they intend to fly on G and how many times they intend to fly on H and then put corresponding amount of effort into each one. If you intend to fly very much you'll want more than one rocket anyway, just for some variety. For flying on F and G motors a 2.6" to 3" diameter rocket works well and gets plenty of altitude. People do fly them on larger motors if they have large enough field. Lots of people at my club fly 2.6" size rockets on larger motors and generally with dual deploy they don't have a problem with recovery.

I thank everyone for all the suggestions, and more importantly the "thought starters".

So far, and this is still *very* preliminary, the LOC Athena has the fast track for a rocket I can practice with on G, then load it up with an H. Sims (if they are accurate....) show H altitudes of 1500 to 2000 feet, which I think is manageable on motor deploy w/o tracker. At this point I really haven't looked at things like launch rod velocity, etc. for ultimate motor selection.

But also, the LOC Deployer seems a great intro to dual deploy. Seems the logical path is to fly the Athena a bit on G, go for L1. Then practice all the complicated "stuff" on the Deployer with smaller motors, and then try big H, maybe "I" flights on that. What I just outlined is a process over a year or so, maybe longer. Baby steps. However, these 2 choices look good to gradually introduce myself to the realm of the big boys.

Hans.

 

[smstachwick]

I thank everyone for all the suggestions, and more importantly the "thought starters".

So far, and this is still *very* preliminary, the LOC Athena has the fast track for a rocket I can practice with on G, then load it up with an H. Sims (if they are accurate....) show H altitudes of 1500 to 2000 feet, which I think is manageable on motor deploy w/o tracker. At this point I really haven't looked at things like launch rod velocity, etc. for ultimate motor selection.

But also, the LOC Deployer seems a great intro to dual deploy. Seems the logical path is to fly the Athena a bit on G, go for L1. Then practice all the complicated "stuff" on the Deployer with smaller motors, and then try big H, maybe "I" flights on that. What I just outlined is a process over a year or so, maybe longer. Baby steps. However, these 2 choices look good to gradually introduce myself to the realm of the big boys.

Hans.

Good plan. It looks similar to mine, which basically says “make as many mistakes as possible while they’re cheap!”

 

[4regt4]

Good plan. It looks similar to mine, which basically says “make as many mistakes as possible while they’re cheap!”

LOL. I went to my first high power launch a number of months ago, mostly to spectate and learn. I expected a certain amount of arrogance among the upper echelon. Was pleasantly surprised that even the L3 guys are quite humble, as they screw up too!

Hans.