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Mugs914

Mugs914

Beware of the leopard.
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There are a few rockets that are MASSIVLY popular but don't particularly appeal to me at all. That said, I'm very genuinely interested in what it is about these designs that is so appealing that some folks have several in their fleet, often in different sizes!

These are the designs I was thinking of (Feel free to add to this list):

Big Bertha
Der Red Max
Goblin
Citation Patriot

Is it the shape, decor, performance, nostalgia, other?

So if you're a big fan of one of these give us some Idea as to what it its that makes it so special for you!
 
That's a fairly loaded question! :)

I'll take the Big Bertha - I like it because it is a classic and great flyer. But better yet is it's ability to handle any mod you throw at it. On my first BB, I added a baffle, 24mm mount, and Kevlar - all first time mods and all together. It's one of my best and sturdiest rockets still!

Some rockets are just really identifiable - like the Red Max. I'm on my second RM, and all will have the stock paint and decals scheme. They look good in photos of the fleet! The V2 is another that everyone knows, and looks good on shelve.

Edit: Like my stock V2 in yellow and black paint made it on Utah KSL news broadcast during LDRS39a - I think because it's a common / well known rocket that gets recognized easily.

Edit Edit: I do have a Goblin! I'm not really fond of 34FNC designs :p
 
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The only duplicates I have are a small V2 kit I built. Then I scratch built a 4" one. I scratch built 2 Nike Smokes. A 3' long 2.6" single deploy with a 29mm mmt. The other is a 3" 6 footer dual deploy with a 38mm mmt. At some point I'll build a bigger V2.
 
Big Bertha.. m'eh.. fins are too long..
Baby Bertha is better..

DRM: I like shorter rockets.. this one is somewhat comical when you think about it. It does fly nicely, and is easy to fit into the car, the box, the... neat decals too. And, we all had one growing up: Nostalgia factor

BBZ (Blue Bird Zero): the length / dia ratio is just about right, the colours are kinda cool, and the the smaller upper fins are just sweet! One of my favorites from days-gone-by.. one of my first 'substantial' rockets (size wise, and not a bank-breaker requiring 24mm motors..) Likely my all time favorite

Fatboy: classic 'squat' rocket.. Sadly discontinued..

Mean machine: M'eh, just toooo long; impractical (the kit, when on special, is a good source of tubes though!)

Mosquito: Waaay too small.
Mega Mosquito: Just right, another 'classic' squat design, that isn't easily lost!! Robust design.. "Building fins" (not just a slab of balsa)

Goblin: over powered for what it is.. an 18mm would be better.. another 'comical' one.. and the nostalgia factor
4" Goblin (LOC): sweet design. jut over the 'squat' size, yet easy enough to fit in the car. flies on G to L.. massive motor range! (Toss their motor adapter system though..)

Patriot (any size!): Classic / traditional shape & design. But I know a lot will say the 'US Army forever' bit.. (that's lost on non US citizens)

Citation Patriot: 'Merica, oh yeah.. Here to save the day!! the bold Red, White & Blue with an eagle. About as "American" as one can get! Nostalgia & Patriotic (Another that's lost on non US citizens)

Alpha: M'eh. just a simple 3FNC. but one a lot started with: another nostalgia contender and a huge history!

V2 (Any size) a bit of history, the first "real" rocket we all learn about.. a boat tail; likely the first one we all had. And likely one of the first 'Scale' models we've made, as well as one of the first 'D' powered rockets we owned.
The "Canadian Arrow" was a better choice, as it had a "less violent" history. was slightly longer too. Sadly discontinued..

Phoenix: those looong forward fins! and another that was likely the largest in our fleets! And all those decals to apply!!

Black Brant (any, but the 'II' in particular) a classic 50's sounding rocket, conical nosecone. and one of the first 'almost Min dia' in our fleet. an affordable 24mm kit.. Easily lost though!! fun paint job too (lot's of masking!) the Cosmodrome kit is a sweet build! Especially when you do all the bevels on the fins!

A lot of the Sci-fi / fantasy / futuristic models from Estes in the 70's & 80's, Canaroc, and Fliskits: you actually had to build it with a decent amount of skill.. And it took time to build; wasn't built in a day or two, and with only a simple coat of paint.. (back when 'building' was 'the hobby'!!)

AMRAAM (Any size*): another that is about right, length / dia wise. and those forward fins..
* the LOC 1" is version is just wrong. the forward fins are just toooo small to be believable.. this one is better in HPR sizes..

SR-71. M'eh./ it's a plane, not a rocket. and it has two engines, not one.. (in the middle of the body.) A cool bit of history, but make it an R/C plan kit, not a rocket

F-104: this one makes more sense, despite also being a plane. It has one engine, short fins, etc. more believable (despite being launched 'straight up')

Saturn V / Apollo: they just don't scale right.. and they need to be a 5-motro cluster.. Make a proper static scale kit, and proudly display it..
I've never seen a return module as a kit. That would make more sense (the capsule & the bit behind it, that they came back from the moon in...) 1 engine, short, a chance for some real details, etc.. and no fiddly escape tower! Have an Apollo 13 version, with either decal or a bit of the side cut out with an appropriate inlay..

Not enough saucers or other odd-rocs..
 
Goblin:
I bought a Goblin decades ago simply because I came to the realization that chutes and small fields suck. The Goblin is a streamer rocket. Straight up, straight down. I had no idea that it would be an easy and reliable flyer. And later become a favorite. It was the polar opposite of the troubled Alpha 3.

The 4" Loc Goblin is a smallish HPR that requires no nose weight. At least not more than a ply nose bay and a tracker. I haven't flown it yet. But the build was LPR easy. Currently in primer sanding. Most likely crossbreed, red Goblin DRM paint scheme. It's not as stubby looking as you think.

Der Red Max:
Same as Goblin, but LOL, how can you not laugh at the silliness of this rocket. I hope it's not an actual (non-model) rocket, because the entire build process is nothing but giggles.

For Example: What's up with the scoreboard list of targets? Like it's a WW2 fighter jet or something? A rocket, bomb, missile, gets used once. And I'm member #7 of DRM no eyeballs club. It's silly fun like that, that keeps people coming back.

They fly great without any nose weight. With a 12" Apogee chute they come straight down. And they "stick" landings. Who cares if it kinda sucks, we haven't laughed this hard with LPR's in years. (I had no idea this rocket existed when I was a kid?)

Big Bertha:
Anyone else notice how trailing fins offer us a wider selection of motors? You can't mess up this rocket. 3 fin it for greater performance. The larger BT60 nosecone and tube was our first introduction to a reliable parachute rocket. More surface area, meant a nicer pop to get the cone and chute out.

Alpha chutes never open. Bertha chutes always did.

Hack a massive hole in the center of the chute and she comes down nicely. I think we used to remove about half of the chute, before switching to nylon 12" and 15" chutes. This was the first rocket, that we felt clever, selecting chutes for.


I suppose much of this is seen through rose colored glasses of a long lost childhood. But I remember the rockets that sucked, as well. And these 3 loved rockets wern't them. Mostly stupid Alpha chutes, if they do open, the rocket is long gone. Broken Commanche 3's, if they didn't confetti, they flew away. BT20 rockets that won't let go of their nose cones. Underpowered heavy Magnum. Nova Payloader, you minus well not even open the bag, just boot stomp the thing as soon as you get it. etc. etc.
 
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I really appreciate the replies guys. This is fun!

Just to clarify; I have never disliked any of these, just didn't see the appeal. If this thread keeps up you guys are going to have me building a DRM before long!
 
Mugs914 said:
If this thread keeps up you guys are going to have me building a DRM before long!
Click to expand...

Why wait.. just get one & build it.. be one with the DRM crowd.. Do it, because Stevie did it, Stan did it, James did it, Jesse did it, John did it... :D

I did forget to mention that the DRM has cool graphics, the skull & Kaiser helmet, a skull & cross bones.. what 12 yr old boy can't resist that?! :D (And the decals do show an attained level of skill! To get that BIG one wrapped around the tube!! that alone is bragging rights!) StickerShock has a whole variety of themes of DRM decals: hello Kitty, pumpkin head, Iron maiden..

https://stickershock23.com/product-category/der-red-max/
 
I don’t like Der Red Max because Germany is pretty cool these days and Germans don’t really like being reminded of that part of history.

I don’t like Big Bertha because I get visions of a large lady crushing me against a wall and me not being able to kung fu my way out of it because of political correctness.

The other two are like mashed potatoes with a slice of bread. Something’s missing.

That said, I try to keep an open mind, but I do have 5-6 kits waiting to be built first.
 
dr wogz said:
Why wait.. just get one & build it.. be one with the DRM crowd.. Do it, because Stevie did it, Stan did it, James did it, Jesse did it, John did it... :D

I did forget to mention that the DRM has cool graphics, the skull & Kaiser helmet, a skull & cross bones.. what 12 yr old boy can't resist that?! :D (And the decals do show an attained level of skill! To get that BIG one wrapped around the tube!! that alone is bragging rights!) StickerShock has a whole variety of themes of DRM decals: hello Kitty, pumpkin head, Iron maiden..

https://stickershock23.com/product-category/der-red-max/
Click to expand...

Hmmm, I do have a couple of Patriot kits. I could bash one of those into a DRM. :p

Same nose cone, iirc...
 
Same cone. But don't bash a Patriot. You can scratch build the DRM booster for $6. And just untie the nose cone and share it.
 
I’ve got a Goblin. TL;DR the thing is a hot rod, which also makes it a challenge to fly and recover properly. For me it’s basically a shop queen. If you can get that thing in the air and have it leave the range in one piece, you’re a better rocketeer than I am.

A D12 will make it punch a hole in the 1000 ft ceiling we have here at DART’s Fiesta Island launch site. A C11-5 is perfect. It’s also pretty inexpensive for a 24x70mm motor kit, and is easy to assemble. Finishing is a challenge though, with that waterslide decal stripe that goes all the way around the body.

After getting sick of cracking fins on the stock dual streamers, I’ve had numerous tangles on a 9” chute and a cracked fin after even after a perfect deployment. I’ve since upgraded to 12 inches but have yet to fly it this way.

I bought a second kit and created a booster for it, for even more ridiculousness. I’m hoping that a C11-0 / D12-7 combination and that bigger chute are viable.
 
I'm currently cloning up a standard BB. I've built a lot of them over the years! Low and slow, perfect for smaller launch sites. Never built a Max, Goblin or a Citation Patriot although the CP is on my wish list! My all time favorite was the Aerobee 300 !
 
Citation Patriot is just a nice set of decals.
Der Red Max is a nice set of decals combined with a distinctive shape.
Big Bertha and Goblin... ya got me.

In general: A nice set of decals can elevate any pedestrian design. When you combine great decals with a great design... you get something that transcends (i.e., almost any Wayne Keller design).
 
I never was into the Estes Goblin as a kid in the seventies. Nor the Cherokee D (not sure when it came out). However Wildman came out with a 5” Goblin, and I got one because I like 4 fins over three…
Built it and had a great time flying it. So then I got the LOC 4” Goblin and enjoyed flying (and killing) that rocket. That said, I probably still won’t ever get the Estes version. :dontknow:
 
Oh. And I do like the Big Bertha. Still have my original from the late seventies. It has a plastic cone, so what year did those start? And a Broadsword, and a 29mm Super Big Bertha. They’re just fun I guess.
 
jd2cylman said:
They’re just fun I guess.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure that's why we do this stuff. 😀

And, that's now why I have three red maxes and a tiny Der Viking Max made from Estes Viking parts (so, four, I guess) and a 3" and normal Goblin and a clone Super Big Bertha.

Love the Baby Bertha as well. Tough rocket and flies great. I built a BT80 upscale. Flies just as nice.

Consistently good fliers are fun. I think that explains part of the draw to these.
 
jd2cylman said:
Oh. And I do like the Big Bertha. Still have my original from the late seventies. It has a plastic cone, so what year did those start? And a Broadsword, and a 29mm Super Big Bertha. They’re just fun I guess.
Click to expand...
I started in ‘75 with a Big Bertha and the kit had a 2-piece plastic cone. The owner of the hobby shop had a K-23 Big Bertha on display from the ‘60’s and it had a balsa cone and the motor mount had no engine hook. My dad bought the extra parts so we could build it like the older K-23. Loved that rocket, wish I still had it. Easy enough to clone another one sometime.
 
I guess I'm the other side of the coin. I like the Big Bertha but there are others that float my boat a bit higher: Alpha, X-Ray, WAC Corporal, Interceptor, Mars Snooper, some others. The Citation Patriot is okay but I've never bought one and don't really expect to. As for Der Red Max and the Goblin...afraid I never saw the appeal. Maybe it's the fin shape. I don't really like the squared-off ends. But that's me.
 
MidOH said:
Der Red Max:
I hope it's not an actual (non-model) rocket
...

For Example: What's up with the scoreboard list of targets? Like it's a WW2 fighter jet or something? A rocket, bomb, missile, gets used once.
Click to expand...

Not that war. It's a nod to uber-legendary WWI ace, The Red Baron, with 80 combat victories.

RedBaronFokkerDR.1 Copy.jpg

Snoopy kept the name recognizable for a generation, and spawned a #2 hit song in 1966. Which was close to the time the Red Max was debuted.

In 1968, Monogram released their Red Baron T-bucket model, and most kids had the Hot Wheels version of it.

Estes capitalized on the recognition, and spent some fun time dressing up a rocket to match. Like the Goonybirds, there was no need to make sense.


Note: The original name was just Red Max. The "Der" was on the decal, but wasn't added to the catalog name until 1975. I can remember having a 9 year-old discussion about why they added "der" to the name with my rocket buddy, Nick, when that catalog came out. It was big news...
 
I don't really like the look of the Goblin of any make, but the big ones (4 & 5") are nice flyers. Doesn't mean they're not ugly, just not ugly to fly. Does that make any sense???
As far as the Big Bertha and Super variants, they're nice just because they're draggy. Put a A8-3 in the original one, and it's a small field flyer all day long. But you can still throw a D21 in there and really send it. Still, not the best looking kit, I'll admit.
 
TigerHawk said:
I started in ‘75 with a Big Bertha and the kit had a 2-piece plastic cone. The owner of the hobby shop had a K-23 Big Bertha on display from the ‘60’s and it had a balsa cone and the motor mount had no engine hook. My dad bought the extra parts so we could build it like the older K-23. Loved that rocket, wish I still had it. Easy enough to clone another one sometime.
Click to expand...

So, that would be about right. Somewhere in the mid to late seventies. I can't remember exactly when I started, but I think it was 5th or 6th grade.
 
Way too many impressionable white boys in the 60's, 70's and 80's that grew up with visions of cool decals dancing in their brains. With the catalog firmly in hand they fantasized about building and flying those dream boats mentioned above. How many chores had to be completed, lawns mowed, to get the few uninflated dollars of cash and coins to buy them. If you lived in a small town or the country you had to wait for the folks to take a trip to the big city whete you could find a hobby store. If you had a MIGHTY D you were the coolest kid in town!

Now all the boys are old, fat and trying to recapture the happiness of their youth. Plenty of cash now to be spent on flying the ones you loved or could not get as a boy. Big boys need bigger toys so upscales Rock! As hardened cold warriors they love the retro decals, just laughing off their non PC attributes. Merica rules! Big motors rule! Just some good ole boys, never meaning no harm. Someday the mountain might get 'em but the law never will!
 
tsmith1315 said:
Not that war. It's a nod to uber-legendary WWI ace, The Red Baron, with 80 combat victories.

View attachment 510158

Snoopy kept the name recognizable for a generation, and spawned a #2 hit song in 1966. Which was close to the time the Red Max was debuted.

In 1968, Monogram released their Red Baron T-bucket model, and most kids had the Hot Wheels version of it.

Estes capitalized on the recognition, and spent some fun time dressing up a rocket to match. Like the Goonybirds, there was no need to make sense.


Note: The original name was just Red Max. The "Der" was on the decal, but wasn't added to the catalog name until 1975. I can remember having a 9 year-old discussion about why they added "der" to the name with my rocket buddy, Nick, when that catalog came out. It was big news...
Click to expand...

It was originally a Citation Red Max, wasn't it? It seems to me it had its debut in that catalog along with the Quasar, Bomarc, etc.
 

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