L1 build with path for possible L2 and beyond

[chipotle mg]

Hi everyone, I am new to the hobby and have limited experience. I have built and launched a few low powered cardboard/plastic rockets with varying levels of success. It has so far been a fun learning expereince. I would like to try to plan a build for a L1 attempt that would also be viable for a L2 attempt in the future. If the rocket and my interests make it that far I would attend one of the National launches like Balls or LDRS and try to max out the altitude with it. The reason being to save money and not have lots of obsolete rockets in short order. Also I have a collection of paper cardboard rockets now that are taking up space in my house as my aspirations grow. So can you give me advice on what I should do or what you would do if you had a similar idea.

To start you off I have considered getting a Wildman Punisher 3" kit with a 54mm motor mount. perhaps I could get a motor reducer sleeve to 38mm for the H or I L1 and just have a motor eject for the L1. Later I could put in the avionics bay and go for the L2 with most of the other parts. OR maybe I could attempt dual deply and the L1 and use and I motor for the L1 at the same time and not have to tinker too much for the L2 at a later date.

I have put some thought into it but my mind is a bit disorganzied at the moment. Any comments are appreciated and considered.

 

[jmasterj]

I recommend doing some forum searches. You aren't even close to the first person to want to do this. It's definitely possible, but the general recommendation is to avoid trying to do too many things with one rocket. The money you save on one rocket kit will be quickly dwarfed by the amount you'll spend on level 2 motors. I'm also not sure I understand the concept of an obsolete rocket - lots of rocketeers (I want to say most, but I certainly can't back that up with data) fly motors across the spectrum rather the only the biggest motors they're certified to buy and use.

 

[ShadowSpire48]

Don't try to break any altitude records or do dual deploy on a cert flight. Get a LOC 4" Goblin and you can do your L1 and L2 certs with it with ease (may need a bit of nose weight for L2) and do the altitude and dual deploy stuff at a later date. Keep certs simple. A 4" Goblin on an H115 will go just shy of 1000ft and a J425 will go about 2500ft. The less you try and do with a cert flight, the higher your chance of passing. You can always do the Goblin for your L1, fly it on G-I motors all day long and then get a new kit for your L2. Maybe you learn what not to do on your L1 build that you can fix on your L2.

 

[chrocket]

I would not suggest to build an rocket for L1 certification with the plan to use it also for the L2 certification with dual deployment.
Of course this is possible, but from my experience I learned lot from building and flying my first L1 rocket which I then was able to use for my L2 certification build.
In the end it is not only building the rocket, but also gaining experience in flying and recovering it. There are a lot differences between low power builds and high power builds.
The techniques used are fairly different and it can be complicated enouth to build just the first L1 rocket without taking into consideration, that it should work als as a L2 with dual deployment.

Spending money on rocket kit will be least amount you do spend when you are flying L2

This is just my thoughts and I do not want to talk you out of your idea.

Welcome to the truly fascinating HPR hobby.

 

[Antares JS]

In my opinion, it's fine to do dual deploy on your cert flight as long as it's not your first time doing dual deploy. My first dual deploy rocket was the one I got my L2 with, but I flew it a couple of times on I motors before attempting the cert flight in order to make sure I got the process down. There are dual deploy kits such as the LOC Deployer that will fly on G motors, that you can then use with an H motor to get a level 1.

I echo the sentiment as well that I don't understand what you mean by "obsolete rockets." You can, of course, do you, but there is a lot more to this hobby than flying the biggest rocket on the biggest motor you're allowed to use.

 

[tsmith1315]

Enjoy your time figuring out the complexities of HPR, that's part of the fun. Don't rush it, just have fun!

I did my original L1 and L2 on a stock LOC cardboard kit, nothing special or expensive. Yes you can do it. By the time you fly the same rocket over and over and are ready for L2, there's a good chance you'll be itching to fly something different.


My advice is to get a rocket you like right now and don't sweat the next level until you begin to prepare for it.

 

[dr wogz]

You don't immediately mention any 'mid power' [MPR] rockets or rocketry experience.. this helps get into the 'L1' frame of mind. launching a few larger rockets on a G motor, starting to look at reloads, getting used to flying off a rail, etc..

and as I've said to others:

• it's not a race.
• build a rocket to suite the mission. The intent is a noble one, and one that many have: to make a rocket for their L1 & L2. But all rockets have a life span / limited number of flights. it's up to you to figure out that number! A good few (most?!) of us have had a rocket that got all the work & $$ poured in, only to have it make 1 or 2 flights before some catastrophe. A rocket intended for the purpose of both L1 & L2 attempts is usually over powered for the L1 flight, and underpowered for the L2 attempt..
• the idea behind the cert levels is to get you used to the dynamics of flying at that level;. L1 for building methods, motor assembly, altitude tracking & locating with electronics, and maybe getting into dual deploy. L2 is where you start getting into electronics deploy & dual deploy stronger airframes & building techniques, redundancy, etc.. (And also spending $50+ for a motor!)

Do think ahead, have the dream. But realize that the path can be as long or as short as you want it to be. Advance as you feel comfortable. Many have sat at the L1 level for a few years before moving on, if they decide to move up!

 

[MidOH]

Same boat, except got LPR's down path.

-sign up for Tripoli, Nar, or both.
-Build a 3" Loc Onyx to practice launching with a JLCR and to meet the HP launchers. E28-7 to F39 motor should do?
-Build an Apogee Zephyr and/or Loc 4" Goblin for L1. Use the same JLCR and chute folding technique.
-Build a Loc 5.5" Goblin for L2. Launch some DD rockets in the meantime.

 

[crossfire]

Just enjoy the journey. No need to rush. Rocketry is a great hobby.

 

[Donnager]

A 4" LOC IV or a Goblin will easily do both certs, but may require some nose weight. The Goblin is a little more draggy and won't go as high as the LOC IV.

I'd be leaning toward larger diameters. A 2.6 or 3" will go higher and recovery will take more attention, especially with a J.

When I did my level 2, I had three rockets available, a 4" FG Nike Smoke, a 4" LOC Goblin, and a 4" Mach1 Momentum. Due to my settings on the chute release, the Smoke didn't get the parachute open all the way before hitting the ground and popped epoxy off a fin.

Next on deck was the Goblin, and it went like clockwork. It landed about 300' from the pad on a J425.

I didn't fly the Momentum that day, but it has flown since.

 

[MidOH]

Just finished building a Loc 4 and a Loc Goblin 4". The 4 is half painted, and the Goblin is ready for primer sanding.

The Goblin looks like the better rocket for a single deployment L1 flight. Might fly this or a Zephyr for L1. More drag, stronger fins than the Loc 4. Went up to a 50'' Loc chute, combined with a JLCR. 1010 buttons just ahead of forward ring, and aft ring.

I have the Loc 4 setup for later, with redundant DD. 18" Fruity drogue, 48" Apogee main.

Both were easier to build than an LPR. But more timely, as there is 5 times more steps. Sanding the plastic tube inside. Checking fin alignment in tube, then gluing fin unit up outside. Checking again, then fillets inside, etc. etc. Just takes more patience and attention to detail. Done right, it's nearly impossible to have a crooked fin.

 

[heada]

I did both my L1 and L2 on the same rocket with dual deploy, a PML 4" AMRAAM. L1 was on an I435 and L2 was on a J415. It can be done but if I had the chance to do mine over, I would do it on 2 different rockets. I would do it on 2 different rockets because since I built that rocket, my build techniques have greatly increased and while a J415 is fully in the L2 range, being L2 now means I could use high-end L motors and those are vastly different from the J I used and I doubt my 4" AMRAAM would survive most L motors.

My advice, spend some time at each level. Estes/Quest/etc. rockets on BP motors are different than Madcow/Aerotech/etc. rockets on composite E/F/G motors and those are vastly different from LOC/PML/Madcow/CompositeWarehouse/etc. on H/I/J/K/L motors. You may not think there is much to learn between L1 and L2 but as nearly everyone who has taken those steps before you will tell you, there is.

 

[DAllen]

Hi everyone, I am new to the hobby and have limited experience. I have built and launched a few low powered cardboard/plastic rockets with varying levels of success. It has so far been a fun learning expereince. I would like to try to plan a build for a L1 attempt that would also be viable for a L2 attempt in the future. If the rocket and my interests make it that far I would attend one of the National launches like Balls or LDRS and try to max out the altitude with it. The reason being to save money and not have lots of obsolete rockets in short order. Also I have a collection of paper cardboard rockets now that are taking up space in my house as my aspirations grow. So can you give me advice on what I should do or what you would do if you had a similar idea.

To start you off I have considered getting a Wildman Punisher 3" kit with a 54mm motor mount. perhaps I could get a motor reducer sleeve to 38mm for the H or I L1 and just have a motor eject for the L1. Later I could put in the avionics bay and go for the L2 with most of the other parts. OR maybe I could attempt dual deply and the L1 and use and I motor for the L1 at the same time and not have to tinker too much for the L2 at a later date.

I have put some thought into it but my mind is a bit disorganzied at the moment. Any comments are appreciated and considered.

Here's something...Get a HyperLOC 835 outfit it to fly dual deploy and a 38/720 case. L1 flight: I600. L2 Flight J350. Same rocket. Same case. Done.

 

[thzero]

Here's something...Get a HyperLOC 835 outfit it to fly dual deploy and a 38/720 case. L1 flight: I600. L2 Flight J350. Same rocket. Same case. Done.

How boring.

 

[MidOH]

Why the Hyperloc instead of the 4" IRIS?

The IRIS has thicker 1/4" fins. Just add an extra coupler, so the shock cord mount is somewhere you can reach. And get an AV bay and drogue.

 

[samb]

Are you already flying with a club? If yes, the locals can be your best advisors and mentors . If no, find the closest club and join since you will need those folks to administer your cert flights. FWIW I used 2 different rockets for L1 and L2. A 3 inch, 38mm, 5 pounder for L1 and a 7.5 inch, LOC Doorknob for L2. I like cardboard rockets.

 

[DAllen]

Why the Hyperloc instead of the 4" IRIS?

The IRIS has thicker 1/4" fins. Just add an extra coupler, so the shock cord mount is somewhere you can reach. And get an AV bay and drogue.

I was just suggesting the HyperLOC because that's what I am familiar with. Whatever blows your dress up.

 

[MidOH]

Cool. I have an IRIS kit hanging on the wall.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Add a Payload Section to a PML TETHYS.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0588/8370/2933/files/Tethysinstructionbooklet.pdf

Modify the Coupler into an AV Bay ( for dual deploy ).

Study for the Level 2 test and certify Levels 1 & 2 on the same day !

https://www.nar.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/HPRL2-2020-V2_STUDY_GUIDE.pdf

Dave F.

 

[GregC]

Don't try to break any altitude records or do dual deploy on a cert flight. Get a LOC 4" Goblin and you can do your L1 and L2 certs with it with ease (may need a bit of nose weight for L2) and do the altitude and dual deploy stuff at a later date. Keep certs simple. A 4" Goblin on an H115 will go just shy of 1000ft and a J425 will go about 2500ft. The less you try and do with a cert flight, the higher your chance of passing. You can always do the Goblin for your L1, fly it on G-I motors all day long and then get a new kit for your L2. Maybe you learn what not to do on your L1 build that you can fix on your L2.

I agree 100% with ShadowSpire48. I used a LOC 4" Goblin for both my Level 1 and Level 2. My advisor told me to keep it simple on both certification flights with low and slow motors and simple motor ejection for both flights. For level 1 I used a CTI H118 and my Level 2 I used a CTI J357 (My profile picture was taken when I recovered the rocket after that flight). Later I converted the rocket to dual deploy with a kit from Apogee: 98MM APOGEE EBAY KIT and a LOC 4" airframe and a new drogue shoot. I flew that rocket a ton and learned much from the investment. I did upgrade the LOC kit with kevlar shock cord, fiberglass wrapped fins, and a nice eyebolt in the nose cone to attach my shock cord. The LOC Goblin has a very nice 3 diameter motor system so you can step up the impulse without any other investments. Good luck!

 

[thzero]

Later I converted the rocket to dual deploy with a kit from Apogee: 98MM APOGEE EBAY KIT and a LOC 4" airframe and a new drogue shoot.

Although you don't need to get a big kit to explore DD either. BT70, or even smaller although its harder, and BT80 lightweight airframes can make good mid-power exploration of DD.

 

[DEmery]

Way back when I certified level 1 and 2 on a LOC EZI-65 two months apart. I had 16 HPR flights before my level 2 cert, not sure if that is a lot or a little.

 

[mtnmanak]

https://www.mountainmanrockets.com/index.php/hpr-primer/

 

[Hobie1dog]

I have a feeling he was only going to make one post. No one agreed with his plan.

 

[chipotle mg]

I have a feeling he was only going to make one post. No one agreed with his plan.

It is ok wow that is a lot of replies! I read all of them and I am just taking it in. I respect the experience on this forum and I am making it a point to try to understand it all. Lots of good comments; in fact as long as they are genuine they are all good.

Sorry obsolete rockets may not be the best term but my feeling was that I do not want to have a lot of once used rockets that I am no longer interested in and are not upgradeable which have cost money to make and were very similar in capability or design to each other and are now collecting dust.

The biggest motors I have flown so far was a modified E12-0 to an E12-8 staged booster. Big thanks to this forum I got in on that Der Big Red Max sale on amazon and it is comming in the mail. I might try to get an F or G motor in that one before I make my next move probably to fiberglass. So yes, I will try a mid power at some point if only once. Just becuase I am trying to map out a future pathway plan doesn't mean I am rushing. I am defintily not russian, I am Italian haha. Most of the fun in this is the process anyways. it is nice to have a challenge and a goal and to share it with others in the hobby. thank you all

 

[chipotle mg]

Has anyone seen this video?



I love that video with the homemade build pics, the backwards floating black rocket , unexpected ending and that perfect music choice.

this guy obviously took some time and effort to make a custom and complex rocket. In the end it didn't work out but IMO it was a success as a rocketeer and it definitely inspired me.

 

[afadeev]

Sorry obsolete rockets may not be the best term but my feeling was that I do not want to have a lot of once used rockets that I am no longer interested in and are not upgradeable which have cost money to make and were very similar in capability or design to each other and are now collecting dust.

OK, but how do you know what you will, or will not be, interested in a year from now?
I certainly don't know, and keep iterating between low-power, mid-power, and high-power kits. And then I bring one (or a few) of each type to a launch, just because building and flying each type brings its own challenges.

As others have pointed out, don't worry about rocket cost. As you continue flying, the cost of motors will FAR exceed the cost of airframes. Especially as you graduate into burning HP-motors.
Having said all that, Wildman Punisher 3" is a great rocket. If you want to build a fiberglass (FG) kit, this one will do very nicely.

The biggest motors I have flown so far was a modified E12-0 to an E12-8 staged booster.

OK, so I would venture a guess that you've never build a FG rocket kit before.
Which is fine, but there are a few tricks to learn when it comes to using FG components. It's highly unlikely you will get all of them figured out on the first build (e.g.: injecting fin fillets).
Don't be shy about taking it easy, and spreading the learning experience over many builds. If you get into this hobby, you will be doing that anyway, with or without L* certification.

Last but not least, consider WHERE you will be flying your HP rockets.
Most likely, it will be with some local rocketry club. Have you joined one yet? Gone out to their launches?
If not, I would start with that. Bring your rockets, launch them, fly your DBRM. See what other HP kits folks are flying. You might be surprised how quickly your preferences and plans will evolve!

HTH,
a

 

[Steve Shannon]

It is ok wow that is a lot of replies! I read all of them and I am just taking it in. I respect the experience on this forum and I am making it a point to try to understand it all. Lots of good comments; in fact as long as they are genuine they are all good.

Sorry obsolete rockets may not be the best term but my feeling was that I do not want to have a lot of once used rockets that I am no longer interested in and are not upgradeable which have cost money to make and were very similar in capability or design to each other and are now collecting dust.

The biggest motors I have flown so far was a modified E12-0 to an E12-8 staged booster. Big thanks to this forum I got in on that Der Big Red Max sale on amazon and it is comming in the mail. I might try to get an F or G motor in that one before I make my next move probably to fiberglass. So yes, I will try a mid power at some point if only once. Just becuase I am trying to map out a future pathway plan doesn't mean I am rushing. I am defintily not russian, I am Italian haha. Most of the fun in this is the process anyways. it is nice to have a challenge and a goal and to share it with others in the hobby. thank you all

I don’t understand why you would have any once and done rockets.
Fly them all many many times. Build the rocket that you want for L1. Fly it a lot on every H or I motor you can find. You might even decide you want another rocket that accepts 38 mm motors or even 54 plus an adapter to 38, but the rockets you have will not be some kind of compromise that doesn’t fly great on either L1 or L2 motors. Take the knowledge you gain and use it to decide what you want to do for L2.
Welcome to the hobby! It’s full of the best people I’ve ever met and will keep you interested for the rest of your life if you let it.

 

[tsmith1315]

I do not want to have a lot of once used rockets that I am no longer interested in and are not upgradeable

I don't know what all you have, but as electronics are shrink, the possibilities for low and mid-power rockets increase. Once you've gotten some practice in with dual deployment, you might start to eyeball some of your smaller stuff and doing a search for "Eggtimer Quark dimensions".

I certainly don't know, and keep iterating between low-power, mid-power, and high-power kits. And then I bring one (or a few) of each type to a launch, just because building and flying each type brings its own challenges.

Indeed. There are L3 flyers here that still fly model rockets regularly. I have my L2 re-cert rocket built and ready to go (and it's paper, not fiberglass), along with a handful of H-K rockets/parts/plans, but what I'm most excited about right now is a group of low power scale rockets in the planning stage.

 

[JackC]

I agree 100% with ShadowSpire48. I used a LOC 4" Goblin for both my Level 1 and Level 2. My advisor told me to keep it simple on both certification flights with low and slow motors and simple motor ejection for both flights. For level 1 I used a CTI H118 and my Level 2 I used a CTI J357 (My profile picture was taken when I recovered the rocket after that flight). Later I converted the rocket to dual deploy with a kit from Apogee: 98MM APOGEE EBAY KIT and a LOC 4" airframe and a new drogue shoot. I flew that rocket a ton and learned much from the investment. I did upgrade the LOC kit with kevlar shock cord, fiberglass wrapped fins, and a nice eyebolt in the nose cone to attach my shock cord. The LOC Goblin has a very nice 3 diameter motor system so you can step up the impulse without any other investments. Good luck!

I agree with GregC. You have enough to worry about (taking the test for L2, finding your witnesses, prepping the rocket, building your motor, etc.) The first time you use the altimeter should not be on your L2 cert flight. Always keep KISS in mind. Nothing wrong with using an I motor and using dual deployment several times to gain the experience you need for L2 dual deployment. Also, no need to rush. The journey is most of the fun!