Black Powder question

[David Schwantz]

Shot my first ground tests using triple 7.
.7 grams only blew the NC off, barely. 1.2 grams pulled the chute 1/2 way out. 1.6 grams blew the chute out and harness but none of the dog barf. Burned a hole in my nomex blanket. I thought these were suppose to be fire retardant?? Watch the hole grow right before my eyes, too bad it did not land in the snow.
Was using .44 mag cases, not big enough, will go to 45-70 cases now. The paper tube to load the powder worked great. Was using a nylon harness, mistake. Now feels brittle in spots.
Clean up was a breeze, a little windex and a wipe down was all it took.
A couple of questions if I may. Will altitude effect the amount of powder needed in the charge?

 

[58pan]

If the gun shop asks you what you are buying the black powder for tell them it is for a cannon. In my area anyway you can buy all the black powder you want for a cannon, but to eject a parachute! Oh No! That is not a "approved use" Just don't tell them it is for a "parachute" cannon.
Typical bureaucratic common sense.

 

[scsager]

If the gun shop asks you what you are buying the black powder for tell them it is for a cannon. In my area anyway you can buy all the black powder you want for a cannon, but to eject a parachute! Oh No! That is not a "approved use" Just don't tell them it is for a "parachute" cannon.
Typical bureaucratic common sense.

Sorry to disagree - this seems like really bad advice, maybe you were just joking.

If you are just starting dual deploy, post #2 has the link to easily and legally purchase ffffg black powder specifically for use in rocketry. That's a really good source, and I have used them myself several years ago.

 

[Eljay]

And if anybody doesn't know 4F is exactly what you don't use in a canon and they would know you are lying.

 

[NateB]

ffffg would be used as primer. The letter of the law is that an individual can purchase 50lbs of black powder a year for use in antique or reproduction firearms.

 

[Andrew_ASC]

I told them it was for a rocket once. They laughed and sold it to me anyways. (welcome to Tennessee). I called it a for model rocketry parachute safety system. And this forum went nuts. Good way to get called an Idiot by CJ.

Beware the L-0’s....

It’s probably best if you don’t tell them what you want it for Incase they don’t think it’s funny.

 

[Eljay]

ffffg would be used as primer. The letter of the law is that an individual can purchase 50lbs of black powder a year for use in antique or reproduction firearms.

It's used in the pan of a flintlock by some people, you get a faster reaction. I usually just use 3F in both the pan and the main charge. Some people also use 4F in smaller cap and ball revolvers, think .31 caliber.

 

[midpower_madness]

I have used Pyrodex up here in Canada for dual deployment but as some of you have stated you really need compression to get the same results as BP. The finer the grain the faster the burn. FFFFg is an absolute must with Pyrodex. I use MJG e-matches as well on a home brew board and works every time.

 

[58pan]

If the gun shop asks you what you are buying the black powder for tell them it is for a cannon. In my area anyway you can buy all the black powder you want for a cannon, but to eject a parachute! Oh No! That is not a "approved use" Just don't tell them it is for a "parachute" cannon.
Typical bureaucratic common sense.

Sorry to disagree - this seems like really bad advice, maybe you were just joking.

If you are just starting dual deploy, post #2 has the link to easily and legally purchase ffffg black powder specifically for use in rocketry. That's a really good source, and I have used them myself several years ago.

Sorry, I wasn't joking. That is exactly what I was told in a Michigan gun shop. I'm glad to hear it is not like that everywhere.

 

[solid_fuel]

If the gun shop asks you what you are buying the black powder for tell them it is for a cannon. In my area anyway you can buy all the black powder you want for a cannon, but to eject a parachute! Oh No! That is not a "approved use" Just don't tell them it is for a "parachute" cannon.
Typical bureaucratic common sense.

How about you tell them to mind their own business? I don’t usually go around telling strangers about my personal business.

 

[NateB]

How about you tell them to mind their own business? I don’t usually go around telling strangers about my personal business.

Because of laws, that's why they ask. Some store owners may risk more than others, some may have been warned by the ATF about one thing or another and try to be cautious.

https://www.atf.gov/explosives/qa/black-powder-subject-regulation-under-federal-explosives-laws

 

[cbrarick]

If you are just starting dual deploy, post #2 has the link to easily and legally purchase ffffg black powder specifically for use in rocketry. That's a really good source, and I have used them myself several years ago.

First of all, prove it. Never met a rocket that would qualify as a antique device or firearm. Black powder is an explosive material for purposes of Federal explosives laws and regulations. However, the law exempts from regulation commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not exceeding 50 pounds (as well as percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers) intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16) or in antique devices exempted from the term "destructive device" in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4). Source: ATF. BTW I do have an antique cannon and am in the process of getting a EUP.

Second, a pound is say, 453.6 grams, right. RCS is selling you 16.8 grams for a mere 11.99. You'd have to buy 27 of them for a pound of FFFFG.
Hmmmm.......$323.73 a pound! My source is $18 right now. Of course for both you pay Hazmat....

 

[beeblebrox]

I bought it as Bass Pro shop. Had to go to Maryland because the nearest store in PA was two hours away. Just told them it was for a flintlock...They did ask why I wanted it, and they had to get a manager and get it from "The Back" But they did have boatloads of double base rifle/pistol powder on the shelf. Which is no good for ejection charges...

 

[Steve Shannon]

First of all, prove it. Never met a rocket that would qualify as a antique device or firearm. Black powder is an explosive material for purposes of Federal explosives laws and regulations. However, the law exempts from regulation commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not exceeding 50 pounds (as well as percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers) intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16) or in antique devices exempted from the term "destructive device" in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4). Source: ATF. BTW I do have an antique cannon and am in the process of getting a EUP.

Second, a pound is say, 453.6 grams, right. RCS is selling you 16.8 grams for a mere 11.99. You'd have to buy 27 of them for a pound of FFFFG.
Hmmmm.......$323.73 a pound! My source is $18 right now. Of course for both you pay Hazmat....

Except that the charges from RCS appear to be able to be sent usps for a flat fee of $9.
I agree it’s much more economical to buy a pound can, but for those who are unsure how much they might use, the replacement ejection charges are a straight forward way to go that might be more comfortable for some.

 

[Banzai88]

I bought it as Bass Pro shop. Had to go to Maryland because the nearest store in PA was two hours away. Just told them it was for a flintlock...They did ask why I wanted it, and they had to get a manager and get it from "The Back" But they did have boatloads of double base rifle/pistol powder on the shelf. Which is no good for ejection charges...

Smokeless and BP substitutes fall in the fire code under a burnable solid, whereas BP is an explosive and has to be stored in a powder magazine. Not all gun shops or reloading suppliers care to deal with the paperwork.

 

[boatgeek]

If the gun shop asks you what you are buying the black powder for tell them it is for a cannon. In my area anyway you can buy all the black powder you want for a cannon, but to eject a parachute! Oh No! That is not a "approved use" Just don't tell them it is for a "parachute" cannon.
Typical bureaucratic common sense.

Probably easier to tell them that you don’t know. Your cousin is taking you black powder shooting for the first time and told you to get a pound can of ffffg.

 

[grouch]

If I’m lying I’m dying. Gotta add that in there too.

 

[Ez2cDave]

If the gun shop asks you what you are buying the black powder for tell them it is for a cannon.

NO . . . Cannon's use larger grain BP !

Fg: This grain size of black powder has the largest grains and normally is used in muzzle-loaded muskets and small cannons.

FFg: This grain size of black powder is smaller than Fg powder and is most commonly used in muzzle-loaded shotguns and larger bored rifles starting at about .45 caliber and up.

FFFg: FFFg: This grain size of black powder is smaller than FFg and is used primarily in pistols and muzzle-loaded small bore rifles .45 caliber and down.

FFFFg: This grain size of black powder is smaller than FFFg and is used only in flash pans on flintlock ignition systems.

Dave F.

 

[dhbarr]

ffffg should work fine as touchole prime

 

[Redneck_Pyro]

All of this is the worst advice I have seen in a long time. Pyrodex works, just ground test. You can buy nitrocellulose from China, and that works, just ground test. You can make your own nitrocellulose, just ground test.

That being said, I buy my BP from the same guy I buy my motors, but I ground test.

My point is, bottled baby farts might work, but ground test it.

 

[David Schwantz]

If the gun shop asks you what you are buying the black powder for tell them it is for a cannon. In my area anyway you can buy all the black powder you want for a cannon, but to eject a parachute! Oh No! That is not a "approved use" Just don't tell them it is for a "parachute" cannon.
Typical bureaucratic common sense.

They did not even ask what my intended use was for. All he did was write down on a ledger that it was sold, did not ask name or for any ID. Funny how laws are so different between states.

 

[solid_fuel]

Funny how laws are so different between states.

Funny isn’t the word I would have chosen

 

[NateB]

The laws about black powder use are federal laws, if a shop follows them to the letter of the law or not depends on them. The ledger he wrote in was likely the magazine inventory to account for the product sold when the ATF inspects it. I don't think the ATF is concerned about 1 lb cans sold here and there as much as they are about 50lb cases or more on pallets.

 

[Don Allen]

If the gun shop asks you what you are buying the black powder for tell them it is for a cannon. In my area anyway you can buy all the black powder you want for a cannon, but to eject a parachute! Oh No! That is not a "approved use" Just don't tell them it is for a "parachute" cannon.
Typical bureaucratic common sense.

You don't want cannon BP, (grains are wayyyyy too large). you want and this is very specific, FFFFg BP. . Many gun shops carry the Goex brand. The more "F'"'s the SMALLER the grain.

 

[BayouRat]

You don't want cannon BP, (grains are wayyyyy too large). you want and this is very specific, FFFFg BP. . Many gun shops carry the Goex brand. The more "F'"'s the SMALLER the grain.

3F or 4F is the only two that will work well. Either go in with a friend and mail order some from Graf and Sons or better yet by some from your local motor vendor or RCS. There are many ways to buy it. It should be a moot point. Except for those that make it an issue or make an issue out of it.

 

[AHansom]

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/5450

Ship up to 50 lbs of black powder for $17.95 ($7.95 shipping and $10.00 Hazmat)

If you reload for pistol or rifle you can mix primers and powder in the same order and hazmat charge.

 

[AHansom]

new to the forum but a reloader for decades. apologies if this is addressed elsewhere but why not use cleaner burning fast smokeless powders like WST, W231, red dot?
thanks

Uncontained smokeless powders just fizzle and don't have the rapid gas expansion of black powder. Since your a reloader sacrifice a little powder and you'll see. Wiping off the black powder residue is not a big deal to me compared to cleaning motor cases

 

[BLH]

If you reload for pistol or rifle you can mix primers and powder in the same order and hazmat charge.

What $10 Hazmat? How come we have to pay like $35 for a G motor?

 

[Zeus-cat]

I don't understand the $10 Hazmat charge either. I meant to ask about it. I'm glad BLH did.

 

[tim cubbedge]

Yea that's pretty odd. I just went to Graff & son website & they charge $10 hazmat for GOEX BP.