Why do cool motors go OOP?

[noise]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I'm in the mood to create a new thread.

I see cool motors in RockSim (D3, G55) that are now OOP, what's up with that?!

 

[heada]

Multiple reasons but I bet the most important one is money. They're expensive to produce or the demand isn't that great. If not enough people order them, it becomes too expensive to produce them. Rocketry as a whole is a very small market. If only a small subset of that market is interested in a motor, it may not sell much and so wont last long.

This is my speculation....yours may vary.

-Aaron

 

[Rick Lindsey]

Alas, what's "cool" to you and I (D3, E6, F10 etc.) isn't as cool to other people (infidels!), but then again, what's cool to them (kick the rocket so hard it hits mach 1 before it leaves the launch rod) isn't so cool to me. The "coolest" rocket motors tend to be specialty ones, which don't have so much market share, which means they don't make enough money *sigh*. Ohwell! At least we can still get E6's and F10's if we're willing to pay enough money, and Ellis has G20's at a reasonable price!

-Rick

 

[Nuke Rocketeer]

If there were no OOP motors, some of us would not have much to whine about. Like B14's, C5-0's, F7's, and 13 mm boosters.



Joe W

 

[doug_man_sams]

Originally posted by noise I see cool motors in RockSim (D3, G55) that are now OOP, what's up with that?!

I'm under the impression that both these examples could come back. Both went away with the fire at Aerotech. There are others as well. My take is it's that they're stilling getting everything back on line. There are alternatives in some cases. For example, Ellis has a G37 that's comparable to the G55.

As for why cool motors go away, it's pretty much already been said - supply and demand. My take is that the cool stuff takes more prep time, more planning, better flying conditions, etc. And that reduces the quantity of cool flights thereby cutting into the sales of cool motors. Cool in the mind doesn't always translates to money in the till.

For example, I bought some kewl A2 and B2 motors from Apogee. I still have yet to fly most of them. No need for replacements. Likewise, I've flown two D3's, and both required better conditions than I had. Ended up losing both, although the latter made it back 3 months later. In the case of slow burn motors, you really need 0 wind (which is rare in north Texas).

Other cool motors posed extra problems. The B14's were drilled after pressing which resulted in more accidents than were acceptable. The successor B8's were apparently more cato prone than their contemporaries (B6, C6, etc).

[soapbox]
Frankly, I think we need to do less lamenting of what's lost and instead focus on flying what's available now. We've recently let a great B14 replacement get away in the C11 because nobody was buying them. (C11-3's are still around, but the C11-0, -5 and -7 are gone.)

So, let's fly what we have. The overall selection is better than it's ever been. Who's flown a hybrid? How about a B6-0 to A8-5? How about a full stack Comanche (D12-C6-C6)? Ellis H50? A D12-0 staged to an E9-8?

There are so many good motors out there right now that we could all fly something new everyday for months and months.
[/soapbox]

Doug

 

[noise]

Excellent answer, thanks Doug!

 

[RoyGreen]

Originally posted by noise
I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I'm in the mood to create a new thread.

I see cool motors in RockSim (D3, G55) that are now OOP, what's up with that?!

D3 could not lift much, was very hard to ignite (it was an end burner and had a very tiny nozzle throat). In addition, small single use motors are just difficult to assemble.

IIRC, the G55 was a single use 24mm G, and I think Gary had mucho problems with casing material. I think there were other design parameters that were close to the edge.

There was another 24mm G motor that Gary used to make for dirt cheap called the G42. Great motor!

 

[Initiator001]

Originally posted by RoyGreen
D3 could not lift much, was very hard to ignite (it was an end burner and had a very tiny nozzle throat). In addition, small single use motors are just difficult to assemble.

IIRC, the G55 was a single use 24mm G, and I think Gary had mucho problems with casing material. I think there were other design parameters that were close to the edge.

There was another 24mm G motor that Gary used to make for dirt cheap called the G42. Great motor!

Yes, small single-use motors can be difficult to assemble (B7, C4, C10, D3, D8).

I do not recall the G55 being problem prone during my tenure. They had low sales volume and used up propellant that could have gone into E15s. Good profit margin, though.

Ah, the G42, the Rocketflight G100 killer. Dirt cheap=little/no profit. Another motor which used up propellant that could have gone into E15s. The designation 'G42' was the result of a long set of motor testing trying to develop an 'E42', 'F42', etc., by Scott Pearce and myself. We were reading too much Douglas Adams back then.

 

[DynaSoar]

Originally posted by heada
Multiple reasons but I bet the most important one is money.

I'm thinking that's the main reason.

Consider also the effect of unavailability and nostaliga on popular opinion: OOP makes those motors cool. Not the major reason, but it makes them mentioned more often than availability can account for.

 

[RoyGreen]

Originally posted by Initiator001
I do not recall the G55 being problem prone during my tenure. They had low sales volume and used up propellant that could have gone into E15s. Good profit margin, though.

No, I don't think they specifically had the problem, but Gary had been wanting to get away from those phenolic casings anyway... the E15s and E30s went into those integrated casings and there was no need to get 24mm casing material after that.

I have a G55-5 in my grubby little hands right now (well, when I'm not typing...). I was going to fly it a few years ago in a LOC Stovi, but the pad fell over and busted the launch lugs off. Never got around to it again.

Imagine a motor that could fill an Alpha!

Someday, when I'm in the desert with nothing better to do, and no one to watch me violate the safety code, I'll build an Alpha to sacrifice, and fly this puppy !

Ah, the G42, the Rocketflight G100 killer. Dirt cheap=little/no profit. Another motor which used up propellant that could have gone into E15s. The designation 'G42' was the result of a long set of motor testing trying to develop an 'E42', 'F42', etc., by Scott Pearce and myself. We were reading too much Douglas Adams back then. [/B]

I thought that '42' was manufactured! I thought I still had one of those, but I can't seem to find it.

 

[vicious-peanut]

We've recently let a great B14 replacement get away in the C11 because nobody was buying them. (C11-3's are still around, but the C11-0, -5 and -7 are gone.)

Really? My LHS has the C11-3, C11-5 (I think) and C11-7. I dont use 'em so I dont really care, but if anyone here really wants some send me a PM and I will see what I can do.

Andrew

 

[RoyGreen]

I'm noticing that these Texas stores all have good supplies of discontinued Estes motors! Did they hoard everything, make Estes think they weren't selling, so Estes would discontinue them and they could then make a mint on them, doling them out pack by pack to those in the know??!!!



Roy in the "Conspiracy Corner!"

 

[vicious-peanut]

Originally posted by RoyGreen
I'm noticing that these Texas stores all have good supplies of discontinued Estes motors! Did they hoard everything, make Estes think they weren't selling, so Estes would discontinue them and they could then make a mint on them, doling them out pack by pack to those in the know??!!!



Roy in the "Conspiracy Corner!"

You know it! That's how we do it!

 

[dwmzmm]

Originally posted by RoyGreen
I'm noticing that these Texas stores all have good supplies of discontinued Estes motors! Did they hoard everything, make Estes think they weren't selling, so Estes would discontinue them and they could then make a mint on them, doling them out pack by pack to those in the know??!!!



Roy in the "Conspiracy Corner!"

Roy, what Texas stores are you talking about?!

 

[R_McMillan]

Originally posted by RoyGreen
D3 could not lift much, was very hard to ignite (it was an end burner and had a very tiny nozzle throat). In addition, small single use motors are just difficult to assemble.

IIRC, the G55 was a single use 24mm G, and I think Gary had mucho problems with casing material. I think there were other design parameters that were close to the edge.

There was another 24mm G motor that Gary used to make for dirt cheap called the G42. Great motor!

I flew two G55-10s in my Cherokee. It was BT-55 with TTW G10 fins. Both flights were perfect to a simmed 4,900 feet. I'd love to do that again.

I always wanted to try a cluster of 3 x D3 in a Ranger.

If black powder F100-0s and F-7s would come back I could probably go a whole season without burning any AP.

--
"Robert S. McMillan" <[email protected]>
NAR #35225 L1, Section #615
Blue Mountain Rocketeers (https://www.bmr615.org)
National Association of Rocketry (https://www.nar.org)

 

[jsdemar]

Originally posted by RoyGreen
I have a G55-5 in my grubby little hands right now (well, when I'm not typing...). I was going to fly it a few years ago in a LOC Stovi, but the pad fell over and busted the launch lugs off. Never got around to it again.

Imagine a motor that could fill an Alpha!

Someday, when I'm in the desert with nothing better to do, and no one to watch me violate the safety code, I'll build an Alpha to sacrifice, and fly this puppy !

Isn't the G55 still on the cert list, good 'til the end of this year? I have a G55-10 from waaaay back that I need to build a rocket around. Especially now that I live in the desert!

-John

 

[RoyGreen]

Originally posted by jsdemar
Isn't the G55 still on the cert list, good 'til the end of this year? I have a G55-10 from waaaay back that I need to build a rocket around. Especially now that I live in the desert!

-John

desert.
GRRRRRR....

If it *is* on the list, then I have something for our high power launch in a week or so! Sure wish it were a -10 though!

 

[heada]

https://www.nar.org/SandT/NARenglist.shtml

Listed as certified until 12/31/2007 You have about 8 months to fire 'em.

-Aaron

 

[uncle_vanya]

Originally posted by Initiator001
The designation 'G42' was the result of a long set of motor testing trying to develop an 'E42', 'F42', etc., by Scott Pearce and myself. We were reading too much Douglas Adams back then.

[off topic] No such thing as "too much" Douglas Adams... [/off topic]



I know several have mentioned it... the G37 Ellis is a kick'n motor. I like the G20 even more but it's harder to find a rocket that is light enough for the G20 and also easy to recover.

 

[Art Upton]

Originally posted by uncle_vanya
[off topic] No such thing as "too much" Douglas Adams... [/off topic]



I know several have mentioned it... the G37 Ellis is a kick'n motor. I like the G20 even more but it's harder to find a rocket that is light enough for the G20 and also easy to recover.

Semroc Jaguars make great rockets for these motors.

I have one I've gotten back four times now.

Art

 

[Nerull]

D3s were notoriously hard to light, and the subject of many amusing NARAM stories...

 

[R_McMillan]

Originally posted by Art Upton
Semroc Jaguars make great rockets for these motors.

I have one I've gotten back four times now.

Art

Do you mean the G20-7?

If you do then I suddenly have a perfect use for the G20-7s in my motor stash and the SLS Javelin that's on the bench.

 

[Rick Lindsey]

Originally posted by R_McMIllan
Do you mean the G20-7?

If you do then I suddenly have a perfect use for the G20-7s in my motor stash and the SLS Javelin that's on the bench.

I've got a G20-7 that's waiting for a very calm, very clear day at a very large field to fly in an Aura .

-Rick

 

[R_McMillan]

Originally posted by Rick Lindsey
I've got a G20-7 that's waiting for a very calm, very clear day at a very large field to fly in an Aura .

-Rick

That'll be gonzo flight!
I've flown my Aura twice in F40s. Out of the park both times.

 

[Art Upton]

Originally posted by R_McMIllan
Do you mean the G20-7?

If you do then I suddenly have a perfect use for the G20-7s in my motor stash and the SLS Javelin that's on the bench.

They will fly great on the G20, the G37 and the G35 Ellis Motors.

The G20-7 will work fine in it.

Art

 

[R_McMillan]

Originally posted by Art Upton
They will fly great on the G20, the G37 and the G35 Ellis Motors.

The G20-7 will work fine in it.

Art

Evil grin
That'll take care of the clubs G Alt record.

 

[Nerull]

I've seen rockets over 10 ft. tall fly on G20s.