What stability is too less and too much ?

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The competition that I am participating requires a min stability of 1.5 cal during boost and to satisfy this my static margin is 2.2 cal. Is this normal? Its a 130 mm dia rocket of length 219cm with an L class SRAD motor. What stability is too much ? What factors would it depend ?
 
In my experience (which is limited and should be taken with a grain of salt) 2.2 cal of stability is absolutely fine. The current rocket that I am working on has a just over 5 cals of stability, but dips down to just under 2 during boost (2.8ish mach). You should be absolutely fine where your at.
 
The competition that I am participating requires a min stability of 1.5 cal during boost and to satisfy this my static margin is 2.2 cal. Is this normal? Its a 130 mm dia rocket of length 219cm with an L class SRAD motor. What stability is too much ? What factors would it depend ?
2.2 caliber is fine for almost anything.
Factors that make large margins of stability undesirable typically include windy conditions and low velocity off the rail.
 
2.2 caliber is fine for almost anything.
Factors that make large margins of stability undesirable typically include windy conditions and low velocity off the rail.
....Steve. also meant to say..
Make sure your SRAD... L class motor..is up to the task..with that size, weight and wind conditions..
Thrust to weight ratio.

Tony
 
but now the question is on how low can you go?
The golden rule is one caliber..and less for short fat rockets..which was a good rule back in the day.
Depends on what your flying and how fast are you going( a better way to think about the fast part is how quickly are you using up your fuel, All that fuel going away really has an affect on your CG.

An estes rocket on an C motor? 1 caliber works.
A 6" rocket with and O3400 with a (2 kilo payload) 1 caliber not so good
a 98mm min dia with a N5800.. 1 caliber..lots of videos shows 'those types of rockets' swapping ends 3/4 the way the burn..then they do that disassemble

Here's a rocket that lost one side of it's nozzle...and had enough calibers of stability to overcome the mishap..and was also built well enough to hold up the the mishap.


Tony
 
Another rule of thumb some have adopted is a minimum margin of 10% of the length of the rocket. This is the same as the one caliber rule for a rocket with length:diameter of 10:1, but adjusts longer and shorter depending on the ratio.
 
I try to stay above 0.7 calibers for standard rockets, but have successfully launched a rocket with -0.221 calibers.... but it was Gas Dynamic Stabilized, had Spin Tabs and launched from a 6 ft tube.

2023-02-27 As Built Open Rocket Flight Simulation.jpg
 
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In my experience (which is limited and should be taken with a grain of salt) 2.2 cal of stability is absolutely fine. The current rocket that I am working on has a just over 5 cals of stability, but dips down to just under 2 during boost (2.8ish mach). You should be absolutely fine where your at.
I've heard the statement that there's no such thing as overstable, just underpowered. It's not quite true, but pretty close.
 
Why are you thinking that might be better than just comparing CG to CP?
cm(alpha) and cm(q) ( if you can guess what those are) might be better for some configurations, but most model rocketeers can't relate to anything but static margin.
 
For a rocket to be stable, the center of gravity must be in front of the center of pressure AT ALL TIMES.
There are 2 main things that change where the CP is. Angle of attack and as you go faster into mach+ airflow coning over the nosecone and shockwave coning.
Angle of attack is the vector sum of your rocket velocity in the direction it's travelling and any external forces action on it.
In english, thats the vertical velocity(ish) and a side wind hitting it as it's travelling or a gust as it goes through a layer(the wind travels in different directions at different heights( that's how balloonists can navigate)
In short if your rocket is in a cross wind, not as much of the fins gets"seen" dynamically and so your Center of Pressure moves forward. If CP was just behind CG and that happened CP could move in front of CG, become unstable and from the unstable skywriting, never be able to recover.
Coning is when the air gets pushed away from the rocket which can result in the fins not seeing as much air moving over them. Shock wave coning is similar but at mach+.......
You can also get shading of the fins by objects like camera housings.

The reason there is a margin of 1 caliber is to give you some safety margin when these things happen. This is just a rule of thumb. A better rule might be 10% of the length of the rocket with a minimum recommended at 10:1 L/D ratio of 1 caliber. If you look at the OP requirements for launch there is a requirement of 1.5 calibers the L/D ratio is 16-ish/1 and that requirement is consistent with the 10% rule of thumb-ish.

But what about the really chunky wide rocket I want to build. Wellllllllllll. Another issue when you launch is packing of objects rearward. In short fat rockets with low stability margins, you stand a chance of packing things back into an unstable configuration. Also if they pack back and the CG of the object is not in line with the thrust of the motor then an arc trajectory can occur.

Have a play with RASAero and look at the CP/mach plot to see how much the CP can move.

Hybrids can be more challenging managing the cg position as the oxidiser tank starts full and is usually in front of the cg.
I go from 15 calibers to 2 at half full up to 7 calibers stable at empty.
 
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Not as reliable as comparing the Center of Pressure prediction from OR to the actual Center of Gravity when fully loaded and ready to be placed on the pad.

I always do that on a rocket's first flight. The actual launch-ready margin is very close to OR's prediction, within 1/16" on this particular rocket.

Why are you thinking that might be better than just comparing CG to CP?

If my actual loaded margin is sub-1 caliber—.954 to be exact, which, according to the rule of thumb, is unstable—I was thinking that the Pitch Rate plot would show me how unstable it is. The sims show an initial deviation from vertical of 7.5 degrees, and then it dampens out. That's just a little wobble on the way up, right? Or am I misunderstanding what the Pitch Rate is plotting?
 
If my actual loaded margin is sub-1 caliber—.954 to be exact, which, according to the rule of thumb, is unstable
No, sub-1 caliber is not “unstable according to the rule of thumb.” It’s just not enough margin for comfort given the fact that Cp is an estimated location and that it moves forward at high velocities.
Negative values inherently indicate instability for aerodynamic stability.
 
Would the Pitch Rate in an OR simulation plot give me a reliable picture of stability during ascent?
@Dane Ronnow --

The Pitch Rate is an effect that is caused by Aero Forces acting at the CP and the 'other forces' acting at the CG.

It can be very complicated to analyse.

Beware of Rules of Thumb but ...

If CP and CG are the distance from the tip of the nose then,

[( CP - CG ) / Diameter ] .gt. 1.0 is an easy RoT to shoot for.

Watch out for negative values or very small positive values and as others have said, this RoT also depends on the length -to- diameter ratio ( aka fineness ratio ) of your rocket and the mass distribution along the length of the rocket ( aka rotational moment of inertia ) and AoA ( aka angle of attack ) and your fin design and luck (*) :)

Great topic !

Thanks All'y'All !

-- kjh

(*) - luck: like @tfish's video of the rocket that spat one side of it's nozzle ...
 
If my actual loaded margin is sub-1 caliber—.954 to be exact, which, according to the rule of thumb, is unstable—I was thinking that the Pitch Rate plot would show me how unstable it is. The sims show an initial deviation from vertical of 7.5 degrees, and then it dampens out. That's just a little wobble on the way up, right? Or am I misunderstanding what the Pitch Rate is plotting?
I'm guessing you're seeing it right as you leave the rail -- so that's when the crosswind is first affecting the rocket. Seeing the AoA quickly go to 0 is telling you the rocket is stable (which of course you already knew -- see @Steve Shannon 's comment above).

What gets a little more interesting is what your "zenith" as OR calls it (really elevation; that name was chosen long before I was involved, and I suspect was picked to avoid confusion with the launch site's elevation above sea level) is when it does settle out, and what your horizontal velocity is at apogee. Those will be telling you how much you're weathercocking.
 
I'm guessing you're seeing it right as you leave the rail -- so that's when the crosswind is first affecting the rocket. Seeing the AoA quickly go to 0 is telling you the rocket is stable (which of course you already knew -- see @Steve Shannon 's comment above).

What gets a little more interesting is what your "zenith" as OR calls it (really elevation; that name was chosen long before I was involved, and I suspect was picked to avoid confusion with the launch site's elevation above sea level) is when it does settle out, and what your horizontal velocity is at apogee. Those will be telling you how much you're weathercocking.

You're right, the rocket begins pitching at launch rail clearance (7 ft alt, +0.16 secs), reaching an angle of 7.5 deg at 32 ft, +0.36 secs, then diminishing until it's essentially null at 260 ft, +1.0 sec.

Pitch vs Alt vs Time.JPG

As far as horizontal velocity at apogee is concerned, my best estimate using the Flight side profile with a timeline is about 1 foot per second.

Thanks, Joe. This gives me a clear picture of what's actually happening in flight, or at least what OR predicts will happen in flight.

BTW, this rocket won't do well in anything more than a slight breeze. With 10 mph wind, the first pitch is nearly 40 deg. (The plot above is in 2 mph wind.)
 
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What is cal?
Short for calibers. Caliber is the diameter of the rocket. Used to compare the distance between CG and CP.

If you have a 4" rocket, and the CG is 4" forward of the CP, stability measured in calibers = cal = 4/4 = 1.
4" rocket with CG=8" forward of CP, cal = 8/4 = 2.
 
I've had this discussion elsewhere but having worked in flight analysis here is my general breakdown of rocket stability:

Methods for determining Cp (can skip this section if you are happy with OR or RASAero):

Cardboard cut-out method < OpenRocket < RASAero < physical test data, and CFD is a wild card.

Cardboard cut-out method is okay for small flights with plenty of margin. OpenRocket is far better, but still requires common sense and sometimes tricks like a base drag cone to really get accurate predictions. RASAero is basically Missile DATCOM with limited exportable data, and is probably the best tool most people have available to them for aerodynamic predictions. If you are a college student you may be lucky enough to be able to do wind tunnel testing (though there are corrections to data that have to be made for wall interference, accounting for how the sting affects base drag, scaling viscous forces, and in the case of supersonic tunnels you have to worry about shockwaves reflecting off the tunnel walls). CFD shouldn't be used without being able to validate the CFD with wind tunnel or flight testing, the results are sensitive to boundary conditions, meshing, etc. and it's difficult to get accurate results.

Methods for determining if stability is adequate:

Swing test < 1-2 caliber rule < 10-20% of rocket length < dynamic stability analysis.

The swing test can work for simple/small rockets, but its kind of garbage. The 1-2 caliber rule works well for "typical" rocket designs, i.e. the length to diameter ratio is not one extreme or the other, long thin rockets need a larger static margin and short stubby rockets need less. As Joe pointed out, you can represent static margin as a percentage of the rocket's length to account for those oddball rockets that fall outside of the "typical" L/D ratios, and it works for normal rockets just as well. The way I'd prefer to deal with things is dynamic stability analysis.

For a rocket to be statically stable, all you need is for the Cg to be ahead of the Cp. For a rocket to be dynamically stable, you need to look at damping ratio. When the rocket is nudged, how does it respond? Does it keep oscillating back and forth, possibly while traveling at high speeds where it could lead to increased stresses and possibly a failure of fins or couplers? Does it immediately arc into the wind and head down range because the corrective moment is too high? The ideal range for damping ratio is somewhere between 0.05 and 0.3, within this range the rocket will damp out oscillations quickly and maintain a consistent trajectory while not going too far down range or maintaining high speeds as it passes apogee where you could shred a parachute. Example plot of damping ratio vs time for my L3 flight:
1707844848266.png

Other notes:
1. Physically measure your Cg location, maybe assemble and disassemble the rocket a couple times to see how consistent that Cg is. Maybe you packed the parachute and recovery hardware tight one time and the Cg was farther back, maybe you packed it loose and it "seems" farther forward, but under thrust everything will shift backwards and all of a sudden you are no longer stable.
2. If you really care about matching simulations to reality, which you should for a rocket competition, perform a swing test with a bifilar pendulum. link:

You can then override all components in your sim to have a mass of 0 and create two disc shaped mass objects evenly spaced from the Cg with a diameter equal to the airframe, no thickness, mass of each equal to half the weight of the rocket, and the distance from the mass objects to the Cg being equal to the "radius of gyration" calculated by your swing test. Example diagram I made when I was working on my L3:
1707844819060.png
 
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I've had this discussion elsewhere but having worked in flight analysis here is my general breakdown of rocket stability:

Methods for determining Cp (can skip this section if you are happy with OR or RASAero):

Cardboard cut-out method < OpenRocket < RASAero < physical test data, and CFD is a wild card.

Cardboard cut-out method is okay for small flights with plenty of margin. OpenRocket is far better, but still requires common sense and sometimes tricks like a base drag cone to really get accurate predictions. RASAero is basically Missile DATCOM with limited exportable data, and is probably the best tool most people have available to them for aerodynamic predictions. If you are a college student you may be lucky enough to be able to do wind tunnel testing (though there are corrections to data that have to be made for wall interference, accounting for how the sting affects base drag, scaling viscous forces, and in the case of supersonic tunnels you have to worry about shockwaves reflecting off the tunnel walls. CFD shouldn't be used without being able to validate the CFD with wind tunnel or flight testing, the results are sensitive to boundary conditions, meshing, etc. and it's difficult to get accurate results.

Methods for determining if stability is adequate:

Swing test < 1-2 caliber rule < 10-20% of rocket length < dynamic stability analysis.

The swing test can work for simple/small rockets, but its kind of garbage. The 1-2 caliber rule works well for "typical" rocket designs, i.e. the length to diameter ratio is not one extreme or the other, long thin rockets need a larger static margin and short stubby rockets need less. As Joe pointed out, you can represent static margin as a percentage of the rocket's length to account for those oddball rockets that fall outside of the "typical" L/D ratios, and it works for normal rockets just as well. The way I'd prefer to deal with things is dynamic stability analysis.

For a rocket to be statically stable, all you need is for the Cg to be ahead of the Cp. For a rocket to be dynamically stable, you need to look at damping ratio. When the rocket is nudged, how does it respond? Does it keep oscillating back and forth, possibly while traveling at high speeds where it could lead to increased stresses and possibly a failure of fins or couplers? Does it immediately arc into the wind and head down range because the corrective moment is too high? The ideal range for damping ratio is somewhere between 0.05 and 0.3, within this range the rocket will damp out oscillations quickly and maintain a consistent trajectory while not going too far down range or maintaining high speeds as it passes apogee where you could shred a parachute. Example plot of damping ratio vs time for my L3 flight:
View attachment 630318

Other notes:
1. Physically measure your Cg location, maybe assemble and disassemble the rocket a couple times to see how consistent that Cg is. Maybe you packed the parachute and recovery hardware tight one time and the Cg was farther back, maybe you packed it loose and it "seems" farther forward, but under thrust everything will shift backwards and all of a sudden you are no longer stable.
2. If you really care about matching simulations to reality, which you should for a rocket competition, perform a swing test with a bifilar pendulum. link:

You can then override all components in your sim to have a mass of 0 and create two disc shaped mass objects evenly spaced from the Cg with a diameter equal to the airframe, no thickness, mass of each equal to half the weight of the rocket, and the distance from the mass objects to the Cg being equal to the "radius of gyration" calculated by your swing test. Example diagram I made when I was working on my L3:
View attachment 630317

Thanks for that. the bifilar testing. Can you provide links to PDFs of the derivation of equations for the bifilar pendulaum testing methodology? In the past, I have used torsion wire pendulum testing but not bifilar pendulum testing.
 
Thanks for that. the bifilar testing. Can you provide links to PDFs of the derivation of equations for the bifilar pendulaum testing methodology? In the past, I have used torsion wire pendulum testing but not bifilar pendulum testing.
I don't have anything on the derivations of equations, but you can try it with simple shapes with known moments of inertia like a dowel rod and it gets basically the same value.
 
OpenRocket is far better, but still requires common sense and sometimes tricks like a base drag cone to really get accurate predictions.
Don't do this. The base drag cone does not improve accuracy for center of pressure.

2. If you really care about matching simulations to reality, which you should for a rocket competition, perform a swing test with a bifilar pendulum.
Why is this method preferred over just using the component masses and CGs and let OR sum up the moment of inertia?
 
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