What Became Of The Launch Pad TALOS???

[SAC of MMMSClub]

Top Ramen, photos? would love to see your fix, I love to build military scale rockets in low, mid power, and most have forward fins and loads of nose weight, but I do still fly them at club launches, we just tell people to look at the cool acrobatic rocket flight...

 

[TopRamen]

Top Ramen, photos? would love to see your fix, I love to build military scale rockets in low, mid power, and most have forward fins and loads of nose weight, but I do still fly them at club launches, we just tell people to look at the cool acrobatic rocket flight...

I will gladly share Pics' just as soon as I get the Assembly done.
I'm confident that I have found the right solution to the Design Challenge, but I don't want to just show what I'm using before I put it together and get a bunch of input on how to do it differently before I even put it together.
I plan to go back to the Hardware store today to get the one thing that I considered but decided not to get, and start building it tonight.
The problem I see most frequently on this Forum when it comes to Scratch Building is that so many Members are dissuaded by other Members when trying to come up with new Designs, that they end up never building anything. They are so afraid to fail that they don't even try.
I'm a Builder. I WILL BUILD!!!
I'm not afraid to fail, and if I do, in my eyes it is not a failure, but a learning experience.
If I fail in a Rocketry Endeavor I will proudly share it here, that others may learn from it too.

 

[SAC of MMMSClub]

What! You don't want to unleash the brain trust that is TRF, to second guess every drop of epoxy applied. How timid of you...:rofl:

Where is this 5 star rating system that keeps getting brought up? I have not seen that feature of TRF. Not that is matters if anyone likes your post or not, it is a forum to share knowledge and BS, etc.

 

[USAFmissileer]

Well look at that! Some Peace Loving Fudgeball got this Thread down to three Stars.
Whoever you are that rated my TALOS Thread 1 Star, I can't wait to rub a Successful Launch in your Face.

Top
I for one can't wait to see it! I hope it flies straight and true for you!

Mike


Launching rockets (and missiles in my case) is so easy a chimp could do it. Read a step, do a step, eat a banana.

Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

 

[luke strawwalker]

I solved the Problem of making the Wings swivel freely. Since they will Pivot at the Top like Luke wisely suggested, they won't need springs to keep them straight, Gravity and Drag willbe plenty. I also got rid of the need for Axles, so the Laundry won't have to go in the Middle of the Model screwing up the CG.
Took me about 15 Minutes in the Agro-Bins at Ace Hardware to come up with something, and I think you Folks are going to be pleasantly surprised at what I have designed.
I just realized that I still need one more trip back to the Bins to get some more tiny Pieces that I considered, but decided not to get, and then I can assemble the Prototype of the Articulated Wing Section.
This will work for other Rockets too, so it will open up a bunch of new avenues.
I also got to thinking about TLPs Matra Magic Model. That's got an aweful lot of Fins/Wings up top too, yet it flies good.

Looking forward to seeing your solution! Sounds intriguing!

Later and KUTGW!!! OL JR

 

[luke strawwalker]

I will gladly share Pics' just as soon as I get the Assembly done.
I'm confident that I have found the right solution to the Design Challenge, but I don't want to just show what I'm using before I put it together and get a bunch of input on how to do it differently before I even put it together.
I plan to go back to the Hardware store today to get the one thing that I considered but decided not to get, and start building it tonight.
The problem I see most frequently on this Forum when it comes to Scratch Building is that so many Members are dissuaded by other Members when trying to come up with new Designs, that they end up never building anything. They are so afraid to fail that they don't even try.
I'm a Builder. I WILL BUILD!!!
I'm not afraid to fail, and if I do, in my eyes it is not a failure, but a learning experience.
If I fail in a Rocketry Endeavor I will proudly share it here, that others may learn from it too.

EXACTLY right!!!

Really looking forward to this...

Later! OL JR

 

[TopRamen]

Anxious to share my Idea, I put together a Mock-up with Foamboard so that you all can see what I'm working with.
10-32 Nylon Screws, Nuts, Washers and Wing Nuts.













On an actual Model the Dimensions would have to be corrected obviously, but this shows how I intend to use the Pieces to create my Pivot Point.
The Nylon is quite dense, and pivots freely even when some toque is applied to simulate Loading.

 

[luke strawwalker]

Anxious to share my Idea, I put together a Mock-up with Foamboard so that you all can see what I'm working with.
10-32 Nylon Screws, Nuts, Washers and Wing Nuts.

View attachment 248038

View attachment 248039

View attachment 248040

View attachment 248041

View attachment 248042

View attachment 248043

On an actual Model the Dimensions would have to be corrected obviously, but this shows how I intend to use the Pieces to create my Pivot Point.
The Nylon is quite dense, and pivots freely even when some toque is applied to simulate Loading.

EXCELLENT idea... certainly bears watching!

Done any testing to see how it handles g-forces and aero-loading?? Just wondering...

That stuff is cheap enough that even if the fins pop off in flight (or on landing) it shouldn't be hard or expensive to replace...

Very innovative!

KUTGW! OL JR

 

[burkefj]

Yes, interesting idea, I'm curious to see how well you can secure the nylon to the fin. I suppose you can use heavier basswood or ply for the forward fins to give a stronger attach and would move your CG forward anyway.

I'm considering doing something similar to this using aluminum tube and carbon rods accross the tube so that the cross fins were tied together, the ejection charge should not damage the aluminum/carbon and it will act as a sort of forward centering ring.... keeping the parachute up forward where it needs to be.

I've used this structure for my RC BG's for the tail surfaces so I know it creates a non binding strong mechanism under load.

 

[Rob Campbell]

The Cosmodrome Black Brant VC has freely rotating forward fins. You can download the instructions here.

https://www.cosmodromerocketry.com/BlackBrantVC.html

 

[burkefj]

That's interesting on the cosmodrome kit, seems like overkill for such a long rocket with large rear fins and pretty small forward fins, I was surprised that since the pivot point is so far back due to the shape of the fins the amount of forward fin reduction was small...but when I did a quick sim, it did move the CP 3"

For the Talos I did a quick sim of a 2" diameter 30" long rocket, talos-similar in fin shapes, and even limiting the forward fin portion to 20% or so, it moved the CP back about 2" compared to a full fixed forward fin, that's just a quick sim.....and an approximation.

Frank

The Cosmodrome Black Brant VC has freely rotating forward fins. You can download the instructions here.

https://www.cosmodromerocketry.com/BlackBrantVC.html

 

[TopRamen]

Well, anyhow, I went ahead and drilled the rest of the Holes on that section of Tube, and gave it a Layer of 2oz. Glass Cloth. We'll see how rigid it is in the Morning.
I have an Estes Patriot BT-60 Estes Model that kinda' sorta' has the right Fin Profile that I'm going to add 8 more Non-Rotating Fins to it and a little Nose Weight to make a Mock up Test model of the Wing/Fin Profile of the Talos. I'll fly it and take a Video as a test to show what happens with this Fin Profile, but on a small enough scale as to be safe. It does'nt have to be inclined toward the performance end of the flight spectrum, so we can gather some Data using an A8-3 and "Nose Blow" recovery. I already stole the Nose Cone from this one to use on my AMRAAM, so it's just a Tube with 4 Fins and an 18mm MMT as far as I'm concerned. Lets all see what happens at this small scale.
I'de make a 13mm Version, but I don't have any Tubes that small.

 

[cosmodrome]

That's interesting on the cosmodrome kit, seems like overkill for such a long rocket with large rear fins and pretty small forward fins, I was surprised that since the pivot point is so far back due to the shape of the fins the amount of forward fin reduction was small...but when I did a quick sim, it did move the CP 3"

Not overkill at all. The design was never to alter the CP. It was simple to make it more scale-like, and to be real cool.

 

[TopRamen]

Not overkill at all. The design was never to alter the CP. It was simple to make it more scale-like, and to be real cool.

That's awesome "Attention to Detail". Kudos!
I'll have to check out your Kits, even though I can't afford anything right now.

 

[Pem Tech]

Interesting.

 

[TopRamen]

Making the Nose Cone is pretty simple using the Tail Cone from the Estes V2 and a chopped Estes PNC 80-BB.
Just need to whip up a Paper Hat Cone and decide how I want to model the Homing Antenna.

 

[TopRamen]

I always take plenty of Pics' of everything I put together for my own knowledge, so I can revisit and review stuff.
Yeah, if it all works out I'll show how it was done. I am goiung to start the build in the next couple of Weeks, as soon as I get the two Current Scratch Builds off my Bench. I already have the Body Tubes and am tinkering with the Actuators. I found a Pic' on one of my miscelaneous Searches for Pics' of Missile stuff that showed me how to make the internals, and Axle with an Armature on it and for my Purposes, Springs instead of Connecting Rods to Servos or Hydraulics. I'll just need enough Range of Motion to dampen Weathercocking and enough Torsion to keep them straight on. I NEVER fly in the Wind with Rockets this size anyway, but sometimes it's windy a few hundred feet up and you can't detect that from the Ground without the help of a Sounding Rocket or some other such Magic.

I just had to Quote myself in this Post, because I find it interesting that I mention that I'm going to make the Wings Pivot, and then someone a few Posts later says, "Well, you could make the Wings pivot".

I tend to read a whole Thread before I chime in.

 

[TopRamen]

I think just making the forward fins pivot is going to reduce the nose weight needed tremendously. I would test fly a boilerplate model with the forward fins pivoting and see what it takes to make it stable.

With the forward fins virtually mostly removed by making them pivot, the rest of it is not much worse than an AMRAAM.

An AMRAAM is pretty tame. Here's a Link to TLPs Matra Magic. It flys, and its Front Fins don't even Pivot.

https://www.the-launch-pad.com/#!blank/c1feo

I'll bet that just tears you up!

Oh, and no, I don't have one, YET.

 

[TopRamen]

Going back and looking closely at TLPs "From The Design Floor" Pics' that I originally Posted the Link to in my First Post in this Thread, it looks like the Model they were Building was just the Sustainer, and not the complete Missile, similar to what they did with the Harpoon they put together.
I don't think I'de have wanted to buy that anyway, so it's good that I'm building my own Kit.
Also, the Dimensions look a little off on the one they are playing with. The Nose Cone is a Conical Thingy, and the Wings are too far back.

 

[TopRamen]

One option to make a flyable Talos might be to put the forward fins on a pivot. This has the effect of virtually refusing the forward fin area to about 15% or so. Details here.

https://www.apogeerockets.com/downloads/Newsletter150.pdf

IIRC, the forward fine the on the Talos serve as fixed wings and are not actuated. This is still be an option, if not exactly scale. You could arrange for the forward fins to lock when on display.

You remember incorrectly. The Wings on the Original Talos are used to Steer it.
You can read all about the Bumblebee Planform here: https://www.okieboat.com/Talos aerodynamics and control history.html





Balancing this Wing properly and airfoiling it, along with Wind Tunnel Testing will be critical to its unimpeded and proper operation.
I've decided to use Metal Screws instead of Nylon to help minimize the chance that they will flex during flight.

 

[TopRamen]

The bonus from this Build is that I also get to build a Wind Tunnel.
I have no room in my House for such a thing, so it will simply be a Clear Plexiglass sleeve with a Camera Mount, that I can affix to the Roof of my Truck.
I'll mount everything up, hit Record, then drive on the Highway at Highway Speed. Upon stopping I can remove the camera and review the behavior of the model.

 

[H_Rocket]

The bonus from this Build is that I also get to build a Wind Tunnel.
I have no room in my House for such a thing, so it will simply be a Clear Plexiglass sleeve with a Camera Mount, that I can affix to the Roof of my Truck.
I'll mount everything up, hit Record, then drive on the Highway at Highway Speed. Upon stopping I can remove the camera and review the behavior of the model.

Please make sure you have a secondary camera recording to show how the state trooper that pulls you over reacts...

 

[TopRamen]

Please make sure you have a secondary camera recording to show how the state trooper that pulls you over reacts...

I'm not even worried about that. Nothing illegal at all about putting stuff on your Roof.
Local LEOs must have better things to do than look for Moving Violations, because some of the stuff I see driving around in these Parts is definitely not safe or would meet inspection standards.
A popular mode of Transit in these parts during the summer months is Toyota Hi-lux Trucks with the Roof cut off, and Car Seats bolted into the Bed for additional Passengers.:eyepop:
Oh, and I frequently notice folks driving around without License Plates, as if they are "Optional".:lol:

 

[TopRamen]

I now have a durable prototype to start trying different Fins on. I just need to stick Couplers into the ends of it so that it can get stuck into body tubes.
I use the shoulder from a chopped up cone as the internal reinforcement. I cut deep cross hatches into it where it is bonded to the inner wall of the tube so that the JB Weld could set up nice and rigid.
Then when I drilled out the holes for the screws to go through, I made them so that they would be tight around the threads. This makes it rigid enough that I don't need the additional nuts on the outside of the tube.
The Screws will be removed and cut down later, but that's where I'm at with it now.

 

[luke strawwalker]

I now have a durable prototype to start trying different Fins on. I just need to stick Couplers into the ends of it so that it can get stuck into body tubes.
I use the shoulder from a chopped up cone as the internal reinforcement. I cut deep cross hatches into it where it is bonded to the inner wall of the tube so that the JB Weld could set up nice and rigid.
Then when I drilled out the holes for the screws to go through, I made them so that they would be tight around the threads. This makes it rigid enough that I don't need the additional nuts on the outside of the tube.
The Screws will be removed and cut down later, but that's where I'm at with it now.

View attachment 248289

Looking good...

So this is the "battleship" test article, correct?? For flight hardware, are you going to use something similar, maybe with a coupler or something in place of the plastic ring, or what?? Course, having the additional weight of this up front could supplant additional nose weight, although it's not used to maximum effect, not being all the way forward (as far forward as possible...)

Looking good! KUTGW! OL JR

 

[TopRamen]

Looking good...

So this is the "battleship" test article, correct?? For flight hardware, are you going to use something similar, maybe with a coupler or something in place of the plastic ring, or what?? Course, having the additional weight of this up front could supplant additional nose weight, although it's not used to maximum effect, not being all the way forward (as far forward as possible...)

Looking good! KUTGW! OL JR

Thanks.
Honestly, this will likely actually see some Airtime, as I have decided that since it will be a "Modular Component Section", I can simply graft it onto a simple Design, or perhaps start with a Model of just the Sustainer.
The Plastic Ring versus a section of Cardboard Coupler is moot, as the weight difference would not be too substantial, and I prefer the way the threads cut into the plastic over the way they would cut into cardboard, even if said cardboard was saturated with CA or similar methods of stiffening were employed. If I had it at my disposal to machine this ring from Aluminum, I would even prefer that over the plastic, however unnecessary that would be.
The Assembly as it sits right now weighs only 1.25oz.
There will be plenty of space in the Nose to add weight to later, and I need to just get this Component functioning for now, before I even think about CG placement.
But yeah, anyway, this will be my Test Bed as they call it. I have a few other "Threaded Things" that go on there other than the Wing Nuts, but this is where I will begin. I use an offset screw driver to snug the screws into position, then I stuck one of my Payloadbay 2.6" 4 Fin Templates on it to make sure the screws had set in straight.
Anyhow, I'm exhausted from all the non Rocket stuff I did today, and it's time to get some sleep.
Sadly, these Ideas of how to put these things together always seem to come to me once I lay down and am trying to turn my Brain off.:yawn:

 

[sodmeister]

All beautiful indeed,but for TLP to produce that kit ,I can assure you it will not happen in the near future.
At one time ,TLP had many a fine kit in the design/RnD line up ,and many did come to life,others never did see the sight of day.

TLP will always be an enigmatic sort of company,marching to their own drum, so to wish and wait for the Talos.....well.....live long and enjoy your retirement.

LE ROI EST MORT,VIVE LE SOD !

 

[samb]

All beautiful indeed,but for TLP to produce that kit ,I can assure you it will not happen in the near future.
At one time ,TLP had many a fine kit in the design/RnD line up ,and many did come to life,others never did see the sight of day.

TLP will always be an enigmatic sort of company,marching to their own drum, so to wish and wait for the Talos.....well.....live long and enjoy your retirement.

LE ROI EST MORT,VIVE LE SOD !

OMG ! Delighted to see a post from you. Hope all is well. Welcome back.

 

[luke strawwalker]

Thanks.
Honestly, this will likely actually see some Airtime, as I have decided that since it will be a "Modular Component Section", I can simply graft it onto a simple Design, or perhaps start with a Model of just the Sustainer.
The Plastic Ring versus a section of Cardboard Coupler is moot, as the weight difference would not be too substantial, and I prefer the way the threads cut into the plastic over the way they would cut into cardboard, even if said cardboard was saturated with CA or similar methods of stiffening were employed. If I had it at my disposal to machine this ring from Aluminum, I would even prefer that over the plastic, however unnecessary that would be.
The Assembly as it sits right now weighs only 1.25oz.
There will be plenty of space in the Nose to add weight to later, and I need to just get this Component functioning for now, before I even think about CG placement.
But yeah, anyway, this will be my Test Bed as they call it. I have a few other "Threaded Things" that go on there other than the Wing Nuts, but this is where I will begin. I use an offset screw driver to snug the screws into position, then I stuck one of my Payloadbay 2.6" 4 Fin Templates on it to make sure the screws had set in straight.
Anyhow, I'm exhausted from all the non Rocket stuff I did today, and it's time to get some sleep.
Sadly, these Ideas of how to put these things together always seem to come to me once I lay down and am trying to turn my Brain off.:yawn:

Wow... didn't realize it was that light... I'd have figured a plastic part to be way heavier than that! Kudos! Looking forward to seeing how this works...

I hear ya on the "trying to turn your brain off but flooded with good ideas... I have nights like that where I NEED to sleep but just have all sorts of good ideas... Then you feel compelled to get up and write them down... which if you do will put you back to the start point of trying to get to sleep... Awhile back I went to bed and my mind was racing, and I came up with a new design for non-fall-off separable side boosters (which I need to work on one of these days), and some "prequel" designs for a Colonial Battlestar using off-the-shelf parts (more or less) as a flying model, as well as prequel Viper designs and prequel Cylon Raider, all of which should be capable of being flyable... as well as a "new method" to make things like the TIE fighter flight capable by a less obtrusive method than the "aero-probe" typically used...

Anyway, it's fascinating what the mind comes up with when it's "overly tired" and gets into that certain mode...

Later! OL JR

 

[TopRamen]

All beautiful indeed,but for TLP to produce that kit ,I can assure you it will not happen in the near future.
At one time ,TLP had many a fine kit in the design/RnD line up ,and many did come to life,others never did see the sight of day.

TLP will always be an enigmatic sort of company,marching to their own drum, so to wish and wait for the Talos.....well.....live long and enjoy your retirement.

LE ROI EST MORT,VIVE LE SOD !

Welcome Back!
My obsession with this 2.6" TLP style stuff is all your fault!