Upscaler vs. Bandman444 Mile High Challenge

[bandman444]

I thought I might stir the pot a little...

Both me and Upscaler have flown HPR for sometime and for some reason neither us have flown our own rocket, by ourselves to an altimeter determined >5280ft AGL

So this Saturday (12th) our local clubs both hold their monthly launch.

So we will both attempt our first mile run!

Rules:

Must be a completely successful flight!

Must use a untampered altimeter.

Clocks stops at the assumed minute of apogee (We are in different time zones you know)

Altimeter data is nice, (I may or may not have data) (MAWD vs. RRC2?)


Anything else to add?

Let this be a fair duel Braden. :handshake:

Bryce

 

[AHansom]

Is it top secret or can you both give a clue what your rocket motor combo will be?

 

[UPscaler]

I'll have the alt data from my MAWD.

Bryce, we'll stop the clock when the drogue charge fires, it'll be hard to see apogee when it's a mile high. I'm actually expecting over 6k out of my rocket.

Technically, mine can't be "on my own" because of the fact I need a K to get my rocket that high. So we need two names on the flight card, one of which will be L3 certified.

Braden

 

[bandman444]

Well I'm not sure Bradens setup, or if there is a impulse limit.

I will be flying my level one kit, with two cameras, garmin astro, MAWD. On a pro38 6G.

 

[bandman444]

Sweet, "J" motor it is....yay!

 

[BsSmith]

I think I already won.

 

[UPscaler]

I think I already won.

Hey, is your name in the title of this thread? :tongue:

Have you flown a K yet Brian?

Sweet, "J" motor it is....yay!

Cool, which one? I think Dave and I calculated mine will be about a K700...orange sunset propellent..

Braden

 

[bandman444]

Well mine isn't set. (I hate to set my eyes on one motor and to have Jack not have on in stock)

But hopefully *Knocks on wood* he will have a J354 New White CTI motor

I'm a little nervous though...Rocksim says Mach .95....And that scares me.

Built with epoxy, but never thought about mach...

The other choices pass through mach 1.1 1.2

I also want to pass it for sure so I said over 6000ft in sim will do.

Motor deploy, main at apogee, Tracker, long walk...

 

[BsSmith]

Have you flown a K yet Brian?

No, I don't need one. I am perfectly capable of breaking a mile with what I have. Plus, I'm starting to get 54mm hardware, so the K will come with time.

Personally, I think this is cooler...

 

[BsSmith]

It always cracks me up when people who aren't even eligible for Junior Level 1 go on and on about all of the high power rockets that they have flown. Yeah, as if.

No, you didn't fly a high power rocket. You may have had a hand in building such a rocket that someone else, an adult who possessed HPR certification, flew. But claiming that therefore you flew it is like me saying that I flew the Space Shuttle, since I helped to pay for it.

Your exactly right, but it's not flying the rocket that's a big deal. It's the skill building and the knowledge associated with it. While our names aren't on the flight card, we have a huge part in flying the rocket. Most of our involvement with the high power projects are enough to say that we flew them. While it is not the legal definition, it is a lot easier to type.

 

[cjl]

It always cracks me up when people who aren't even eligible for Junior Level 1 go on and on about all of the high power rockets that they have flown. Yeah, as if.

No, you didn't fly a high power rocket. You may have had a hand in building such a rocket that someone else, an adult who possessed HPR certification, flew. But claiming that therefore you flew it is like me saying that I flew the Space Shuttle, since I helped to pay for it.

Mark,

If someone builds a rocket, designs it for a specific motor, and preps everything except the motor for flight, and then it has someone else's name on the flight card, they effectively flew the rocket. Your space shuttle analogy is wrong unless you actually built the space shuttle.

 

[daveyfire]

It always cracks me up when people who aren't even eligible for Junior Level 1 go on and on about all of the high power rockets that they have flown. Yeah, as if. No, you didn't fly a high power rocket.

Wow dude, chill. As someone who has recently come out of underage high power rocket-dom, I can safely say that I learned much of what I know about hobby rocketry while I was under 18.

I built my L1, L2, and L3 rockets before I was eligible to fly them with my name on the card and my hands on the motor. But when I turned 18 and was able to certify, suddenly I could fly them with my name there. Nothing else was different. And they worked.

(True story: the scene is the Salt Flats, at LDRS 17. I'm unthreading the ends from our shiny new 54/852 motor case, so as to apply some grease to allow my dad to load a J180T for a L2 cert attempt. Scott Deakins, prefect of UROC, walks by and says, "My, that's a big motor you've got there!" Ten year old me quipped back, "Not really, it's only 764 newton seconds." He called me a smartass and walked away. Be careful, kids are smarter than you think...)

Go Bryce, I'm on your team, 'cause I miss Lucerne. The Caliber should scream on that motor.

 

[slipperyfrog]

It always cracks me up when people who aren't even eligible for Junior Level 1 go on and on about all of the high power rockets that they have flown. Yeah, as if.

No, you didn't fly a high power rocket. You may have had a hand in building such a rocket that someone else, an adult who possessed HPR certification, flew. But claiming that therefore you flew it is like me saying that I flew the Space Shuttle, since I helped to pay for it.

Why do people have to be this way? A fun, interesting thread spoiled by someone looking to trash another that enjoys the hobby. :sigh:

OP - keep the post going. It is fun to follow.

 

[edwinshap1]

Bryce, don't launch the rocket til around 11-noon, ill go on the "long walk" with ya.

lets just hope this wind calms down around that altitude

 

[bandman444]

thanks guys for the input/support

Let me be the first to say that this saturday will be the testing point of months of work, planning, building.

When I get there I will be ready to launch Lil one with a camera to 6000ft tracker, all that jazz.

That flight firsts :
1) One mile, duh
2) first flight above .5 mach
3) First flight with Garmin Astro tracker
4) Personal largest impulse motor ("J")
5) Double camera setup

Other first for the day:
First "B" motor
First ground test
Helping a father-son group both earn Level One (Dads second attempt)
First night sleeping out on the lakebed

The list goes on, Its going to be a blast!

Can't wait

 

[bandman444]

I just contest the use of the term "to fly" in describing it, because it has always meant something rather different than what they are describing.

No mean to be rude but may I ask what would you call it?

Bryce

 

[bandman444]

It always cracks me up when people who aren't even eligible for Junior Level 1 go on and on about all of the high power rockets that they have flown. Yeah, as if.

Ya I don't know anyone who isn't elgible for Jr. Level 1 saying that. Maybe Scrapdaddy but he's different.

Jr. Level One isn't a right. It's not bought. It's earned through knowledge in rocket safety, building technique, and experience.

Just because we are younger (therefore unexperienced?) doesn't mean we don't fulfill the above criteria as well as any other Level One soon-to-be (18+)

I hope that one day you meet a kid that can prove to you he is capable of things above your level. Because build threads on the forum are *fake* an doctored by adults.

Also I will have you know that my dad has NEVER touched one of my rockets ever. He brings me to the launch and sits in the car on his laptop doing "work".

[mini-rant off/]

 

[cjl]

I expected to get considerable push-back about this because I'm standing against the ever-widening cant use of this term. When a word or concept is allowed to be stretched every which way, it starts to lose all meaning, and it can also be used to promote deception. I am in no way attempting to minimize the things that bandman444 and others are doing, which can in some cases represent quite significant and praise-worthy accomplishments. I just contest the use of the term "to fly" in describing it, because it has always meant something rather different than what they are describing. In my mind, what they do stops at a point prior to actually flying the rocket, so that is not a proper way to describe their activities. And furthermore, that stop point can vary from individual to individual and from one's project to the next, and that fact muddies the picture even further. Calling all of it "flying" simply stretches the term beyond recognition.

If they prepared the rocket for flight in every way but the motor, there is exactly zero ambiguity. They flew the rocket.

Similarly, if someone flies a rocket on a Pro38 motor, or a single use motor, they flew the rocket (even though they basically didn't have to assemble the motor, just like the person below 18 in the example above).

 

[cjl]

I strongly suspect that when you're 18 and are fully certified, you'll want this distinction to be made clear, too.

Evidence suggests otherwise. I flew several rockets signed off by certified adults before I was 18, and daveyfire was the same. Both of us (both of whom are now >18 and full certed L3s) disagree with you on this point.

 

[MarkH]

Maybe I missed it but what are you guys referring to with stopping the clock? I realize you are in two different locations. Are you both synchronizing your watches or counting down simultaneously over the phone or something? Then the first to reach apogee wins the duel?

 

[bandman444]

Haha yes, we are in different states, different time zones, etc...

I'm betting the times will not be seconds apart.

Technically we are going against GMT by compinsating for the time zone. (i have to launch an hour earlier)

 

[blackjack2564]

So Okay Rocket Boys......

Step back 10 paces and get ready.

But What are you 2 flying [rockets] for this extravaganza?

Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[bandman444]

I guess I didn't formally post it?

It will be Jr. Level One rocket a LOC Caliber ISP named Lil One [see signature]

 

[mannyskid]

MarkII, I just want to say that I am 16 and at our WOOSH Junuary launch I flew this, a 6" dia. 60 lbs rocket with over 3000 Ns of power.
Manny

 

[cjl]

MarkII, I just want to say that I am 16 and at our WOOSH Junuary launch I flew this, a 6" dia. 60 lbs rocket with over 3000 Ns of power.
Manny

Very nice

I think my record of anything I launched pre-18 was my Deuce upscale on a pair of K700Ws (4522 Ns total)

 

[cjl]

So tell me, other than signing a slip of paper, was there any adult involvement at all in your high power projects when you were still a minor? Or is that requirement just a bunch of BS? Lately I have been hearing about high power launches involving younger (under 16 y. o.) high power "fliers" in which the "adult supervision" is so cursory that it's a joke. The kid builds the rocket by himself. The kid buys the motor and reload by himself (no adult in sight, other than the vendor) and then goes off and assembles it by himself, out of sight. The kid loads the recovery system, packs and sets the ejection charges by himself, taking black powder from the big can that he purchased on his own back when he was 13. The kid takes the rocket out to the pad by himself (no adult accompanies him), inserts the igniter and hooks up the clips. After the launch someone goes around and corrals some hapless adult on the field to sign a slip of paper attesting to the fact that he supervised the kid for the entire process, to make it sure it looks all legal and everything. ("Gotta make the government happy...") The signing adult doesn't know the kid, doesn't know what rocket he launched, and may not have even been present on the field at the time. And everyone is OK with this, because they all agree that the "adult supervision" and "adult ownership of the motor" requirements are just examples of intrusive government nanny state BS anyway, right? As they repeatedly remind everyone, that was what the whole 10 year lawsuit was all about in the end, wasn't it? You know, the one that we won?? So, "we don't need no stinkin' rules, because we're self-regulating!" Right?

Not quite.

The kid builds the rocket. The kid preps the rocket. Then, either the certified adult builds the motor, or the kid preps the motor while the certified adult watches. In addition, some certified adult definitely looked over all of my HPR designs before I was 18 (before they were willing to sign off on them).

Why do you care so much about this? You aren't even certified, and yet you seem to hold certification up as some holy privilege. Seriously, stop worrying about it so much.

 

[AHansom]

So tell me, other than signing a slip of paper, was there any adult involvement at all in your high power projects when you were still a minor? Or is that requirement just a bunch of BS? Lately I have been hearing about high power launches involving younger (under 16 y. o.) high power "fliers" in which the "adult supervision" is so cursory that it's a joke. The kid builds the rocket by himself. The kid buys the motor and reload by himself (no adult in sight, other than the vendor) and then goes off and assembles it by himself, out of sight. The kid loads the recovery system, packs and sets the ejection charges by himself, taking black powder from the big can that he purchased on his own back when he was 13. The kid takes the rocket out to the pad by himself (no adult accompanies him), inserts the igniter and hooks up the clips. After the launch someone goes around and corrals some hapless adult on the field to sign a slip of paper attesting to the fact that he supervised the kid for the entire process, to make it sure it looks all legal and everything. ("Gotta make the government happy...") The signing adult doesn't know the kid, doesn't know what rocket he launched, and may not have even been present on the field at the time. And everyone is OK with this, because they all agree that the "adult supervision" and "adult ownership of the motor" requirements are just examples of intrusive government nanny state BS anyway, right? As they repeatedly remind everyone, that was what the whole 10 year lawsuit was all about in the end, wasn't it? You know, the one that we won?? So, "we don't need no stinkin' rules, because we're self-regulating!" Right?

Huh ????

 

[scsager]

Not Defending MarkII, but I am a bit curious myself... and I'm asking because I don't really know.

I have read the jr L1 rules and I think I understand what is involved with that.

I understand 18 and certified to purchase HPR motors. I guess what I didn't realize is happening... is young people that are building L2 or L3 projects, and they get flown.

That is a bit surprising to me - Maybe I'm just a "HPR prude" so don't flame me. It just seems like that might be a bit outside the NAR safety code, especially the jr L1 rules which are fairly specific about total impulse allowed for folks 14 -17 years old.

Just tryin' to understand better

 

[AHansom]

I’m sure a lot of people under 18 help build and fly large rockets. There is no age rule about building or owning a high power rocket or associated parts only a rule about purchasing and owning motors and BP. My son who is now 11 helped me build my level 1,2 and 3 rockets just like countless kids have helped there Fathers, Uncles, Grand Parents, school teachers or scout leaders build rockets. Ultimately the liability of actually launching the rocket rests on a person over the age of 18 who has the proper certification but if a JR. rocketeer designs and builds a rocket its his rocket and I think it counts as his flight even if someone over 18 has to accept liability and sign the card.

Im glad there are people who are willing to help younger people learn about there hobbie, sport or buisness. Here are a couple of rockets I was able to work starting when I was 14 and continued working on for several years. I didnt drive but I traveled the country working on every aspect of the cars including refuleing.

I won't be at ROC this weekend good luck and I look forward to hearing about the flights.

Andy

 

[daveyfire]

I guess what I didn't realize is happening... is young people that are building L2 or L3 projects, and they get flown.

Yep. And though I don't feel the burden of proof is on us to explain (since the accusations flying are based on third-hand evidence), here's how it would usually go down for me when I was a <18 HPR flyer:

I'd get a project idea, and undertake the design. Everything went into Rocksim and got planned out. When I had a good idea on what would be needed for the project, I'd go purchase materials and build the vehicle, doing the glassing, lining up the fins, designing and mounting the avionics package, sanding, filling, painting. So the construction process was all mine. It had to be, for me to use birds I'd built to do my certifications.

On launch day, my (L2 certified) dad would drive me to the launch site. (I don't know how he put up with me.) We'd take a team trip to the motor vendor's campsite, and I'd indicate what motor(s) I'd like to fly that day. He would purchase them from the vendor, carry them back to the car, and handle the energetic components during the assembly process. He'd also prepare black powder charges while I wired the rest of the avionics bay, packed the chutes, and installed shear pins. After the motor was installed, we'd carry it up to the RSO table, where we'd fill out a flight card together, and walk to the pad together. The LCO at the site would then launch the rocket.

The two times I wanted to (read: could afford to) fly an M motor, I found an L3 certified flier to help me through the same process. Thank you, Erik Gates, Kurt Gugisberg, and Wedge Oldham for letting me build my confidence with larger airframes so I could certify L3.

So the bottom line is: I don't see what's not above board about this process, or how any rules were violated. The energetic components were handled and under the control of the certified and of-age flyer the entire time. As a <18 flyer then, and a >18 flyer now, I'm not a fan of the rules, but I understand the need for them, and respect them now as I did then.

What I really don't understand (and take issue with) is the assertion that the above process creates "ever more flaccid meaning" for the flights of >18 y/o rocketeers, or how it "create the impression that [the underage flyer] is more accomplished than is actually the case."

And now that I'm >18, I don't see the activities of <18 flyers as a threat to my ability, or flying status, or masculinity, or anything, really. I'm actually glad to see that there are more rocketeers like me and Chris and Justin and James and Art and Eric and David and Steve and Todd and Ryan who are continuing in the hobby as far as they can. Our activities as underage rocketeers were anything but "misleading", and now that I'm "18 and... fully certified", I don't understand the need for "this distinction to be made clear". Flying is flying.

So please, can we move on now?